I Want Alternatives to Raiding

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

I'm sorry, that's not how a MMOs work or games with multiple game modes and activities. You don't get to cherry pick based on your own wishes, not if you understand yourself as a part of a bigger community.

This is a thought more people ought to entertain.

[zealex.9410]

Fractals, open world, achievements, dungeons...

[Hooglese.4860]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Fractals, Dungeons, WvW, PvP, World Bosses, Achievements and Collections.There you go, alternatives.Now if you want easier content with the same level rewards, that makes no sense does it?

An easy mode with less rewards (like only Legendary Insights for last boss, and less Magnetite shards) could be a way to introduce people into raids.

But, even though i'm in no way someone that could be identified as a Raider (although my guild are starting to get into the content, early as you can see), i don't think it's worth discussing other alternatives for raids.

For me, at least, I can't get into raids because the price of the gear you need to go into raids with, is higher than you can get with the above. On top of that, the higher demand for raiding/ascended gear with the right stats increases the price of the materials you need. If you don't raid, then it will take a month or so to get the gear you need, and if anet nerfs the class you were gearing up, then you just wasted a couple hundred gold gearing up your revenant and then they nerf Herald and you have to start from scratch, because anet has a vendetta against me. Maybe that's just my experience and doesn't apply to the general population.

Also, I totally agree with the easy mode/need for a mid point for difficulty cause Dungeons have gotten too easy, fractals are only really done for dailies anymore (also super repetitive), world bosses can basically be done AFK, and the others don't provide loot for shit. A hard mode for dungeons would also work, or some kind of "solo reward" where doing events/world bosses/dungeons alone gives an additional reward.

Idk, there needs to be a system to get people into raids, because the best way to get the loot you need for raids, is by raiding.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

What about people who do not enjoy jumping puzzles?What about people who do not enjoy wvw or spvp?What about people who do not enjoy open world farming or grind?What about people who do not fractal?Etc.

Your suggestion is basically this:"I do not enjoy certain content therefor this content should be made purchase required for others. Meanwhile all the content I do enjoy should remain free."

I'm sorry, that's not how a MMOs work or games with multiple game modes and activities. You don't get to cherry pick based on your own wishes, not if you understand yourself as a part of a bigger community.

Please at least read my previous comments. None of those you listed require a premade group. You just do them, except for fractals. I'm ok with charging extra for those, too. I won't buy. They're instanced PvE content that requires a premade group in a game that only has a PvP automated group finder. Not interested. But enjoy your raids and fractals that I chipped in for.

If I do not get to cherry-pick then neither do you.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

Yes, we are. They aren't developed by a team of volunteers.

You were not charged for the raids. You were charged for the base game and/or any expansions you bought. No where in the latest expansion's description do I see raids.

Since the raids were announced as part of the expansion I was charged for them.

[Cyninja.2954]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

What about people who do not enjoy jumping puzzles?What about people who do not enjoy wvw or spvp?What about people who do not enjoy open world farming or grind?What about people who do not fractal?Etc.

Your suggestion is basically this:"I do not enjoy certain content therefor this content should be made purchase required for others. Meanwhile all the content I do enjoy should remain free."

I'm sorry, that's not how a MMOs work or games with multiple game modes and activities. You don't get to cherry pick based on your own wishes, not if you understand yourself as a part of a bigger community.

Please at least read my previous comments. None of those you listed require a premade group. You just do them, except for fractals. I'm ok with charging extra for those, too. I won't buy. They're instanced PvE content that requires a premade group in a game that only has a PvP automated group finder. Not interested. But enjoy your raids and fractals that I chipped in for.

If I do not get to cherry-pick then neither do you.

By that logic, you are welcome for the attention and increase in playerbase that raids and the group content has brought to the game.

You do realise this is a MMO right? Group content is kind of expected. You wanting only solo content that fits your personal desire makes you the lonely hermit and outlier, not the other way around.

[GreyWolf.8670]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

What about people who do not enjoy jumping puzzles?What about people who do not enjoy wvw or spvp?What about people who do not enjoy open world farming or grind?What about people who do not fractal?Etc.

Your suggestion is basically this:"I do not enjoy certain content therefor this content should be made purchase required for others. Meanwhile all the content I do enjoy should remain free."

I'm sorry, that's not how a MMOs work or games with multiple game modes and activities. You don't get to cherry pick based on your own wishes, not if you understand yourself as a part of a bigger community.

Please at least read my previous comments. None of those you listed require a premade group. You just do them, except for fractals. I'm ok with charging extra for those, too. I won't buy. They're instanced PvE content that requires a premade group in a game that only has a PvP automated group finder. Not interested. But enjoy your raids and fractals that I chipped in for.

If I do not get to cherry-pick then neither do you.

By that logic, you are welcome for the attention and increase in playerbase that raids and the group content has brought to the game.

You do realise this is a MMO right? Group content is kind of expected. You wanting only solo content that fits your personal desire makes you the lonely hermit and outlier, not the other way around.

Until you can stop trying to attribute thoughts to me we're done. You have absolutely no idea what I want and seem to have no desire to discuss anything.

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

Raids take longer to complete/give more content to raiders because they're somewhat challenging but the dev time isn't as high. Living story stuff can be done fast because it's easy but it takes a lot more dev time due to new map and multiple instances. You could make living story as hard as raids to give it longevity the same way difficulty gives raids longevity but that'd be stupid because people are already crying about how hard raids are. That said the nature of the content makes raids way more repetable than living story.

In shortLiving story: Loads of dev time+easy difficulty=Fast play-through with low replay valueRaids: A lot less dev time+high difficulty=Slower play-through with high replay value

Difficulty makes you spend more time in specific content, not the amount of dev time put into it.

[Oglaf.1074]

I'm the only one totally at a loss as to what the OP actually wants?

Alternative to raids? In terms of what? Getting legendary armour?

[Cyninja.2954]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

What about people who do not enjoy jumping puzzles?What about people who do not enjoy wvw or spvp?What about people who do not enjoy open world farming or grind?What about people who do not fractal?Etc.

Your suggestion is basically this:"I do not enjoy certain content therefor this content should be made purchase required for others. Meanwhile all the content I do enjoy should remain free."

I'm sorry, that's not how a MMOs work or games with multiple game modes and activities. You don't get to cherry pick based on your own wishes, not if you understand yourself as a part of a bigger community.

Please at least read my previous comments. None of those you listed require a premade group. You just do them, except for fractals. I'm ok with charging extra for those, too. I won't buy. They're instanced PvE content that requires a premade group in a game that only has a PvP automated group finder. Not interested. But enjoy your raids and fractals that I chipped in for.

If I do not get to cherry-pick then neither do you.

By that logic, you are welcome for the attention and increase in playerbase that raids and the group content has brought to the game.

You do realise this is a MMO right? Group content is kind of expected. You wanting only solo content that fits your personal desire makes you the lonely hermit and outlier, not the other way around.

Until you can stop trying to attribute thoughts to me we're done. You have absolutely no idea what I want and seem to have no desire to discuss anything.

Okay, let't go through your insightful input in this thread:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Kyban.4031 said:

@Ordin.9047 said:Moving title contents here: Please give the 80% of us who don't raid more to do than

An hour worth of living story and a bunch of grind.

I'm not sure what you're looking for. The release will include a fractal for repeatable and rewarding content, achievements, a new map. Not good enough?

If it's another raid-like fractal like the previous ones, then no, not good enough, as it's aimed at the same general group of people as raids. There needs to be some instanced content in between those two extremes.

So you just want to stack mobs with no mechanics and call it a day?

Uh, yeah... sure.

Okay...

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

This is the part where I jumped in. Based on your limited contribution to this thread so far, I responded the way I did.

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

Yes, we are. They aren't developed by a team of volunteers.

Yes, raids have a small team of developers who are working on them. It's by far one of the smallest dedicated teams. One can argue that the benefit to the game with this minimal amount of effort is huge, or not depending on which side one takes on the issue of value of raids. You've so far not given any argument which supports this team is doing a insufficient job.

Which thoughts did I exactly attribute to your limited and subjective responses beside myself taking a stance that you can't cherry pick which content gets added to a MMO which by it's overarching design is based around group and multiple player content?

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Alternative to raids? In terms of what? Getting legendary armour?We actually do need that, since there's no non-raiding way to get legendary armor in PVE.

Also I think the OP wanted new dungeons, something else we desperately need.

[Vayne.8563]

@Rennie.6750 said:So more fractals? I'd be fine with that. It's true that only 1 for the expansion is really not much. Maybe some of that super fat voice acting budget could be used on actual content instead.

It's not one for the expansion. I believe it was three for the HoT expansion. They just don't come out all at once.

[Ellisande.5218]

@Kyban.4031 said:

@Ordin.9047 said:Moving title contents here: Please give the 80% of us who don't raid more to do than

An hour worth of living story and a bunch of grind.

I'm not sure what you're looking for. The release will include a fractal for repeatable and rewarding content, achievements, a new map. Not good enough?

No because fractals are shit. Achievements are a boring pointless grind that shouldn't be part of a grind. New maps are usually bad as well. The lack of ways to interact with the environment and NPCs is the major problem that never gets addressed.

All of these "new" things are really just things that already exist with a slightly different paint job.

[Ellisande.5218]

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Everyone pays for raids because developing raids costs money as people have to design, implement, test, redesign, reimplement, rinse and repeat. That takes time and time costs money.

Also, items are locked inside raids even though not everyone enjoys raiding. So that's just fing dumb. The only people who truly believe that is fair are the people who enjoy raiding. There is NO reason why items should be locked in raids only. If you complain that raiders wouldn't have any reason to raid without raid only items then you've just proven that you don't really want raids and so the devs could save a lot of money by stopping developing raids since no one really wants to do them.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Ellisande.5218 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Everyone pays for raids because developing raids costs money as people have to design, implement, test, redesign, reimplement, rinse and repeat. That takes time and time costs money.

Also, items are locked inside raids even though not everyone enjoys raiding. So that's just fing kitten. The only people who truly believe that is fair are the people who enjoy raiding. There is NO reason why items should be locked in raids only. If you complain that raiders wouldn't have any reason to raid without raid only items then you've just proven that you don't really want raids and so the devs could save a lot of money by stopping developing raids since no one really wants to do them.

There are items locked behind dungeons, fractals, PvP and WvW too, exclusive ONLY to that content. And guess what?, that's fine.

[Torolan.5816]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Ellisande.5218 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Everyone pays for raids because developing raids costs money as people have to design, implement, test, redesign, reimplement, rinse and repeat. That takes time and time costs money.

Also, items are locked inside raids even though not everyone enjoys raiding. So that's just fing kitten. The only people who truly believe that is fair are the people who enjoy raiding. There is NO reason why items should be locked in raids only. If you complain that raiders wouldn't have any reason to raid without raid only items then you've just proven that you don't really want raids and so the devs could save a lot of money by stopping developing raids since no one really wants to do them.

There are items locked behind dungeons, fractals, PvP and WvW too, exclusive ONLY to that content. And guess what?, that's fine.

No, it is not ok. It already was a stupid idea with fractals, and it has grown even more stupid with raids. The only way for all modes of play to work peacefully together is tha avaiability of the best content in every game mode. If a content is not exciting enough to win people over, it is nearly blackmailing to put exclusive rewards behind it. If raiders and fractal runners(I have all classic fractal achievments myself) insist on being special snowflakes, it would have been the best option from the get go to give everyone the same in a different clothing instrad of 2 years of yapping and dividing the players.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Torolan.5816 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@Ellisande.5218 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Everyone pays for raids because developing raids costs money as people have to design, implement, test, redesign, reimplement, rinse and repeat. That takes time and time costs money.

Also, items are locked inside raids even though not everyone enjoys raiding. So that's just fing kitten. The only people who truly believe that is fair are the people who enjoy raiding. There is NO reason why items should be locked in raids only. If you complain that raiders wouldn't have any reason to raid without raid only items then you've just proven that you don't really want raids and so the devs could save a lot of money by stopping developing raids since no one really wants to do them.

There are items locked behind dungeons, fractals, PvP and WvW too, exclusive ONLY to that content. And guess what?, that's fine.

No, it is not ok. It already was a stupid idea with fractals, and it has grown even more stupid with raids. The only way for all modes of play to work peacefully together is tha avaiability of the best content in every game mode. If a content is not exciting enough to win people over, it is nearly blackmailing to put exclusive rewards behind it. If raiders and fractal runners(I have all classic fractal achievments myself) insist on being special snowflakes, it would have been the best option from the get go to give everyone the same in a different clothing instrad of 2 years of yapping and dividing the players.

Every online game has had this system where it rewards specific behaviour/playing a specific mode and it makes sense. I WvW frequently but I think I'll never be able to get the 2k rank armor skin and that's fine, having everything avaliable with no merit to it would kill the game pretty fast.

[Torolan.5816]

The legendary wvw armor is a substitute for the raid legendary armor. Don´t you agree that a lot of bad blood could have been avoided if Anet had said from the get go that wvwers and pvpers would also receive legendary armor at some point in the future?Pretty much like myself you may ask why they didn´t do so.My personal answer to this would be that they did not want raids look optional if you wanted to have optimal armor for all things and invalidate it from the get go for non meta players.

The usual retort to this is the unfitting runes argument. Runes are mostly important for raiders and fractal goers who should have the least interest in legendary armor if you argument this way. but it is still more convenient than having to remodel your existing armor over and over again or carry a second set around with you.So by a definition of hardcore players very casual and convenient item is suddenly protected by a hardcore event. Does not make much sense if you ask me.

Edit:I actually agree with you that you should not get just handed it over to you. But there has to be more than one way to obtain it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Jojo.6140 said:

@Ordin.9047 said:Moving title contents here: Please give the 80% of us who don't raid more to do than

An hour worth of living story and a bunch of grind.

tbh, a raid-wing is also only an hour worth of actual different and new content. The rest is repeating the same thing over and over again until you are successful and then repeating it for the rewards. The open world and story part of the next LS will also be repeatable i assume...Except, of course, there's generally no point reward-wise in repeating story instances more than a few times (few, to take care of all possible achievements). Same with storywise - at best you might try to see all the options in multiple-choice story parts (but those generally do not have much of an impact on the story at all).

Raids on the other hand are made for repeating them. A lot.

@DarcShriek.5829 said:

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

No one is paying for raids....yeah. Sure. The devs making them do a charity work. Seems like a wonderful business model.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, raids have a small team of developers who are working on them. It's by far one of the smallest dedicated teams. One can argue that the benefit to the game with this minimal amount of effort is huge, or not depending on which side one takes on the issue of value of raids. You've so far not given any argument which supports this team is doing a insufficient job.Oh, i think that they do their job splendidly. I also think that raids are a net loss for the game. The problems caused by raids are not caused by their specific implementation, but merely by them being based on an

idea

that in a long run is damaging to this game.

@Lunateric.3708 said:There are items locked behind dungeons, fractals, PvP and WvW too, exclusive ONLY to that content. And guess what?, that's fine.There's a reason why most of dungeon exclusives are exclusives no more. And why most of WvW and sPvP exclusives can be achieved by only casual shallow dipping (and solo play).

[maddoctor.2738]

@Torolan.5816 said:No, it is not ok. It already was a stupid idea with fractals, and it has grown even more stupid with raids.

Why only fractals and Raids?It's not like other content doesn't have unique rewards, or can you tell me how to unlock the Griffon by playing Raids/Fractals/PVP/WVW?

[Torolan.5816]

No I can´t tell you how to unlock it. Open World indeed tends to take a lighter schedule with me because it is the bread and butter of this game. But I am more than willing to let raiders and fractal runners buy the Griffon with the raid or fractal currency to avoid the open world content, fair enough.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, raids have a small team of developers who are working on them. It's by far one of the smallest dedicated teams. One can argue that the benefit to the game with this minimal amount of effort is huge, or not depending on which side one takes on the issue of value of raids. You've so far not given any argument which supports this team is doing a insufficient job.Oh, i think that they do their job splendidly. I also think that raids are a net loss for the game. The problems caused by raids are not caused by their specific implementation, but merely by them being based on an

idea

that in a long run is damaging to this game.

That's quite a bold assumption which is based more on subjective opinion than fact. Not saying there are no facts which might support this, I would like some of those stated please though.

As it stands now the addition of raids has:

• forced a stricter balance as far as classes are concerned, especially in pve
• has brought a lot of new and returning players to the game (if this is a net gain or loss one would have to check, my assumption though is it's a huge gain)
• legendary armor created an extra longterm incentive for players and was later added to spvp and wvw. no matter if you are working towards this goal or not, you can't deny that it has a lot of players interested or engaged
• toxicity and elitism is no better or worse than before raids. except now it can actually be disproven by use of damage meters. Before people would simply not take you along as class xyz, now they might give you a chance
• have added a layer of pve endgame content. Believe it or not, a huge part of GW2s problem was there was nothing to work towards.

I get that some people might want to return to GW2 being more niche and more casual (which it still is, 90% of the content created for this game is super casual stuff), what I find very disheartening is how people go out of their way to bash on content which affects them in almost no way. Why should a casual on-off player care about the minimal amount of development time going into raids when their net benefit is so much bigger than any other content in this game besides maybe a new expansion?

For anyone who thinks legendary armor would have been introduced to regular pve without raids, rest assured that it would have been made so expensive or timegated that if you can't manage to acquire it currently, you would not have been able to acquire it then too.

[Cynn.1659]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

• have added a layer of pve endgame content. Believe it or not, a huge part of GW2s problem was there was nothing to work towards.

There is still not enough, just look at PoF. New maps are pretty but that's about it, there is nothing to do on them. Haven't been to pof map in like a month.

[Joxer.6024]

@MyriadStars.5679 said:

@Myhr.9108 said:

As for raiding, yeaaaaaah, to each their own...It's ok to have them, but "been there, done that" in others MMOs. It's a mindset, an investment, an experience. I honestly think the hardest part in raiding will always be finding 9 other people willing to block one or two evenings each week for 2-3 hours non-stop, and this for a period of several months, aka, it's an irl-organisation challenge, and most people can't or don't want to invest themselves that much, it's just how it is.

I agree. Been there and done that in vanilla WOW. We had to block at least 3 evenings every week, and spend 5-6 hours per evening, so it's more time commitment. However, later it became impossible for me to make such a time commitment. For the same reason, I have been staying away from raids in GW2. I believe that 90% of the raiders will eventually have to give up raiding, due to a challenging job, parenting, and all other sorts of commitments needed in real life.

Bingo! You both nailed it. #1 thing that kills most raid squads...real life. I to was that crazy committed raider with 3 days a week and countless hours, only to then wipe and have to start again...arrrrggggghh!!! Good times!!

[Joxer.6024]

@GreyWolf.8670 said:

@mazut.4296 said:I think you already have the alternative to raiding. It's called "No raiding"...

Cool... so they should sell the raids separately so those that don't want them don't have to pay for them.

I don't PVP or WVW, so does your logic apply there as well? It was already mention in a post earlier....other option, just don't raid. This game has so much other stuffs to do its silly.