Defend Achievements - Difficult Progression by current design and change

[Draygo.9473]

3 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Based on your point though, didn't they just code for an exception? They made an issue based on what you are seeing at SMC apply to every other objective out there. I understand better you are looking to prevent abuse, I get that bit. And I am not saying the rewards weren't in excess and needed some tuning. But I was seeing much more positive gameplay then negative gameplay and much more activity not only on the attack side but on the defense side as well. Example, based on what you were seeing it sounds like it was people standing around waiting for treb fire to repair a patch that the treb was hitting. Agree terribad use of supply unless you take out the treb first. Under the temp system though were you seeing more or less breaches opening up though allowing attackers to get to your AFK players and kill them? When the supplies were running low was there more attacks on SMC since there was reduced supply or less?  What I was seeing was more, so if we did have AFK people just waiting in SMC they were killed due to the breaches being generated. SMC was an even more contested than normal. Since part of the reduction was intended to reduce the strength of a fully supplied T3 structure these changes were working with that intended purpose or, seemed to be based on what I was encountering, maybe others were seeing more stockpiles but it didn't sound like it.

Either way I understand what angle you are looking at this from so that helps, we do have some people that do not think we should have walled objectives in general but I didn't think you were going there but wanted to make sure. 

Before the change (14th) for years I would see a lot of people autorunning into a wall on inner in SMC. 

The patch that contained the improved rewards, I did see a overall negative change in behavior during active siege people would spend 10-20 supply on repairs first before going to disable or build siege, which made defending harder in general if your supply was limited, and the patch also limited the amount of total supply in the objective, so this was a huge net loss of supply for little effect. I dont blame players for doing this, they were just optimizing their wxp gains. 

 

In the general case objectives should be repaired after the enemy is repelled. Yes there are cases when pumping a wall back up is important to defense, but as that continues the defense if proper participation in other areas awards participation in the event, additional participation from the act of repairing is un-needed and removes the perverse incentive i'm talking about here. 

 

The rewards for repairing without including the defense quest in terms of wxp are actually not bad at all. So if you dont want to repair a wall from the raw wxp you get, i'll do it then. Before the addition of defensive rewards, there was no real incentive to repair (except SMC for pips participation) but people did it anyway then, and they will continue to do it post change on the 14th. 

 

We should be focusing on asking anet to provide more ways to participate in the event, than adding back something that has had a strong downside over the years. I am against anet having passive gameplay contribute to the event quest. Repairing shouldnt directly contribute, and building siege shouldnt directly contribute. These things can indirectly contribute in other ways, but need no direct incentive. 

 

And yes, I think wvw should be fought around objectives, if you want to gvg go to the eotm gvg arena. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

Before the change (14th) for years I would see a lot of people autorunning into a wall on inner in SMC. 

The patch that contained the improved rewards, I did see a overall negative change in behavior during active siege people would spend 10-20 supply on repairs first before going to disable or build siege, which made defending harder in general if your supply was limited, and the patch also limited the amount of total supply in the objective, so this was a huge net loss of supply for little effect. I dont blame players for doing this, they were just optimizing their wxp gains. 

 

In the general case objectives should be repaired after the enemy is repelled. Yes there are cases when pumping a wall back up is important to defense, but as that continues the defense if proper participation in other areas awards participation in the event, additional participation from the act of repairing is un-needed and removes the perverse incentive i'm talking about here. 

 

The rewards for repairing without including the defense quest in terms of wxp are actually not bad at all. So if you dont want to repair a wall from the raw wxp you get, i'll do it then. Before the addition of defensive rewards, there was no real incentive to repair (except SMC for pips participation) but people did it anyway then, and they will continue to do it post change on the 14th. 

 

We should be focusing on asking anet to provide more ways to participate in the event, than adding back something that has had a strong downside over the years. I am against anet having passive gameplay contribute to the event quest. Repairing shouldnt directly contribute, and building siege shouldnt directly contribute. These things can indirectly contribute in other ways, but need no direct incentive. 

 

And yes, I think wvw should be fought around objectives, if you want to gvg go to the eotm gvg arena. 

+1 from me and I appreciate the extra detail so thanks for taking the time to share more. Agree not a fan of people trying to game the system. Just don't want it to also impact those not doing so. Agree its a juggling act between people playing what they think is a good idea and those looking to AFK farm. I just hate allowing the farmers to remove options for all the other players when a winning move for your side might be cutting an attacker in half to give enough pause for your side to win. Agree on I don't think they are accounting for enough actions on defense, which also makes me worried about options for offense since I admit to being a defender junkie that is also a Havoc/Roamer that will be looking to take their stuff while mine is protected. 🙂Let's both keep the feedback coming and meet in the middle. Good hunting to you and may your bags always be full! 

[Ixen Darastrix.8251]

9 hours ago, Draygo.9473 said:

We should be focusing on asking anet to provide more ways to participate in the event, than adding back something that has had a strong downside over the years.

I would settle for anet making defending reasonable before they nuke the only way to get credit for some things, what's that? you only killed 1 person, well no credit for you, you killed 10 of them 1 meter from the walls? well no credit for you.

 

This is a reality of the current defend system, it never counts a single player and the range it counts is too small, I can be on the wall shooting people, but because they are outside the range even at 5 kills it does not count (was on a ranger with 1500 range), how is that logical or reasonable?

 

The reality here and the part I have issue with is not that anet took away repairing from counting, the problem as I see it is they made a problem with their changes, without thinking through the consequences of those changes, and instead of undoing the problem they caused, or fixing some of the other problems around it, they just decided to make the entire thing worse without thinking of the consequences again (at least that is how it feels as an OCX player).

 

It is almost impossible to get defend credit in some time zones now because there are either not enough players to actually defend, or the enemy is smart enough to withdraw before they get steamrolled, or just move a little bit to far from the tower, yes this is not every time or every fight, but a tower with 3 walls broken can mean nobody gets defend credit for saving it because the enemy simply left or moved a little out of the way for an open field fight when they saw the zerg coming to defend.

 

This is not better, at at least it should not be the solution, and after playing for almost 11 years (I have been playing wvw since BWE1) I have never hated it or the choices anet have made "for the good" more than I have in the last few weeks.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Ixen Darastrix.8251

[Bern.9613]

2 hours ago, Ixen Darastrix.8251 said:

This is a reality of the current defend system, it never counts a single player and the range it counts is too small, I can be on the wall shooting people, but because they are outside the range even at 5 kills it does not count (was on a ranger with 1500 range), how is that logical or reasonable?

Yesterday? Day before? Recently we had daily objective defender and I still had the weekly keep defender, keep keeper maybe? Anyways, like you I took out a couple of the enemy standing in the back while others were cata'ing annnnd nope, no defender. Took out another one while he was running to lord's room annnnd nope, notta again. Long story short, I didn't get credit until I killed someone that had attacked the lord . So I killed 5 or 6 and had 3 contested timers go by before I got credit. So something else was changed, not just repairing walls. Maybe they re-wrote/removed a line/code making it only give credit for defeating a player that actually attacked lord, not guards and not just the objective being sieged. Sorta along the lines of cutting off a finger because the nail keeps growing. It'll stop the nail from ever growing again but the consequences........ you can never pick your nose again 😉

Edited March 16, 2023 by Bern.9613

[Neathra.1950]

On 3/16/2023 at 6:56 AM, Bern.9613 said:

Yesterday? Day before? Recently we had daily objective defender and I still had the weekly keep defender, keep keeper maybe? Anyways, like you I took out a couple of the enemy standing in the back while others were cata'ing annnnd nope, no defender. Took out another one while he was running to lord's room annnnd nope, notta again. Long story short, I didn't get credit until I killed someone that had attacked the lord . So I killed 5 or 6 and had 3 contested timers go by before I got credit. So something else was changed, not just repairing walls. Maybe they re-wrote/removed a line/code making it only give credit for defeating a player that actually attacked lord, not guards and not just the objective being sieged. Sorta along the lines of cutting off a finger because the nail keeps growing. It'll stop the nail from ever growing again but the consequences........ you can never pick your nose again 😉

My god this happened to day I'm at 5/8 on the stupid "Defend Towers" weekly. There were at least 4 ticks where I killed a player inside my tower while defending. Or standing in my tower shooting out. Or standing right outside. 

And got 0 credit

Edited March 18, 2023 by Neathra.1950
Forgot sentence

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

Too many too worried about possible afkers getting credit, to such extend that normal players cannot get credit for legit participation anymore.

Look, as I said before, the problem is not taking the repair away, the problem is "taking away" in general, not replaced by something different or better.

If someone (as multiple stated) dont even get credit after killing an enemy inside the objective... then what VALID reason does Anet have to even NERFE defending?

Give proper participation before you take it away.

In simple words, I no longer defend, I do no longer care, I no longer care people screaming "why did nobody do a shout out" because I am no longer there to actually be ABLE to shout out. I am elsewhere getting proper credit and cannot care less if a t3 keep falls in enemy hands. 

Let me be clear:

ArenaNet's latest change and lack of giving proper scout/defend rewards forced me to no longer care.

Dont blame me you lost a t3 keep! 

[Junkpile.7439]

Tower defender hardest weekly. Couldn't do it this week.

[Neathra.1950]

3 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Tower defender hardest weekly. Couldn't do it this week.

I'm 6/8 and see unlikely to finish as well. Like the achievement not getting done because its hard is one thing, but I've participated in at least 15 tower defenses. Just couldn't get credit for one reason or another. 

[xDumplinx.7983]

Yup the weekly achievement is definitely noticeably harder to complete now due to actual defence not being counted as defence.

 

Even running with a good squad and a commander who knows what they are doing isn’t enough to finish this as someone at ANet has entered a 0 instead of a 1 in the line of code that says “if player X kills player Y in player X base while it is tagged as under attack then give player X credit for killing invading player Y”

[Widebody.5071]

I was the text book defender, I wouldn't dare go outside the walls unless I was with a really big group but since the wvw change I seem to be doing okay. Coupled with the change to my toon I doing great. I've never made so much money in wvw before, this going back to 2012.

I have notice the amount of canking has gone up and disconnects. I'll start a fight then lose control of  of my character and my screen would go black for about 3 seconds then reappear only to find myself surrounded by a group of what I believe are thieves. 

This has happened 5 times in the past couple day.

[Neathra.1950]

I've just started reporting it as a bug whenever I kill an enemy in one of my objectives and don't get event participation. Its up to 5 since reset.

[Widebody.5071]

Yea it's pretty bad, it just happen again. I went after a guardian didn't see what elite but I got his name. As soon as I caught up and hit him a couple of times there was a flicker then he was like 3 times further down the road then he was initially this make about the 6th or 7th time today.

I hope it's just a bug and not nothing else. Dangit as soon as I'm able to start getting bags and not be the bag provider this mess happens.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[ZTeamG.4603]

It has been hit-or-miss whether kills inside the objective give credit for the defense event for me, but just as bad is that the boundaries of the defense event mean you can be just barely outside of some objectives and you lose any chance at credit if the person you kill ran a little too far out.

[Gorani.7205]

17 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Tower defender hardest weekly. Couldn't do it this week.

I finished with 0/8 Tower defences, just to add to the other reports here (and getting defences was not a problem the way I played before - which is actually defending and not "just repairs").

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Gorani.7205 said:

I finished with 0/8 Tower defences, just to add to the other reports here (and getting defences was not a problem the way I played before - which is actually defending and not "just repairs").

I usually don't pay attention to the reward chests since I don't want to stop and deal with them till I get some downtime or at the end of the run. After the changes was trying to watch more. Its ironic while attacking, if there were defenders, killing them after flipping the structure was more likely to trigger a defense event even though we were the ones attacking until the flip. So yeah, what is triggering what in the code? Now its almost a puzzle to figure out. Need to do some more testing this week.

[Pifil.5193]

On 3/19/2023 at 11:53 PM, Neathra.1950 said:

I'm 6/8 and see unlikely to finish as well. Like the achievement not getting done because its hard is one thing, but I've participated in at least 15 tower defenses. Just couldn't get credit for one reason or another. 

 

I'm on 6/8 too and I've removed it from my list of Tracked Achievements, it's just irritating.

 

At least one of those I got after killing a random player well away from any tower. I guess he hit the lord, was driven away and then I tagged him later.

 

This system is so stupid now.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

This will go the way of other changes, complained about alot initially and then ultimately forgotten about or accepted. 

 

You need to understand the blob needs that supply for golems and they need that 10 mins cap time so they can lolly gag building those golems, just accept it and move on, go kill the wurm till that's not considered participating anymore.

Edited March 23, 2023 by HazyDaisy.4107

[Clementine.3896]

I do not have anything constructive to say here as i really do not know how this can be fixed other than resetting back to how it was, but defending in general is completely borked now. I am currently 1/8 Tower defence, i almost have every other weekly completed. Keep defence seems doable if you are in the sort of match up that provides endless keep attacks that are evenly matched so you are able to get some kills in inner, but you still need to be lucky.

Tower is almost impossible, especially as everyone just seems to be defending less because it rarely counts participation, we actually had some interesting tower defence fights while the new rewards were in place, generally it felt like more action and was more fun.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Clementine.3896

[timetopat.7921]

As another poster said, the concern about AFK people getting rewards ends up hurting players who actually play way more. That new weekly reward system is a no go for me right now because the defense ones just arnt happening. Also i see almost no defense anymore , besides SMC.   This all seems to be about SMC and people just chronically repairing the outer walls for credit and afking. But now all the towers, keeps, and SMC have defense participation issues.  Right now Im seeing less active participation when I try to play wvw and it has killed a lot of my buzz to play it. I liked defending towers and keeps. I like the battles. GW2 players are great at optimizing everything for max currency and afraid if we enter warhammer onlines lets just zerg towers and wait till the other team captures out so we can go in a circle. Fighting be damned. 

 

  Also we have no word if there is going to be an update to address this yet, or if its even viewed as a problem by anet. The change came out of left field and seems to know that it will probably cause a lot of issues. 

[Matty.1234]

On 3/24/2023 at 4:35 AM, HazyDaisy.4107 said:

You need to understand the blob needs that supply for golems and they need that 10 mins cap time so they can lolly gag building those golems, just accept it and move on, go kill the wurm till that's not considered participating anymore.

 

You're assuming there is a blob. On my server during my hours we don't have blobs. They do. When they decide to attack something we are just barreled over. It's impossible to get a kill for defense when you're 5 vs. 30.

 

In theory we could try and hold them off and do some repairs, if we're lucky there might just be enough players online, but if we can't get enough people to come to defend we've just wasted all our participation and get demoted for even trying.

 

Those supplies you mention? Those aren't ours, those are now property of the zerg who killed wiped us. It doesn't matter how hard we fight, how long we hold them off, we get nothing. If we do somehow manage to down one of them, the other 29 instantly run to bring them back up. No kill, no participation, but the clock keeps on ticking.

 

I'm glad your server is well populated when you're online. But it's not like that for everyone. I have a few friends who have quit WvW recently.

 

I now just ignore any defense weeklies and try to focus on camp flipping. It's the only consistent way to keep my participation up now.

 

I used to enjoy fighting and defending, now I'm forced to sit around and camp flip every 10 minutes if I ever hope to get legendary gear. Defending just drains my participation time down to nothingness if I'm not playing at 4am.

 

Counterpoint though, ANet did manage to make sure supplies on towers and keeps are always full of supplies now. Win?

[crepuscular.9047]

registered 6-8 kills at a lord room fight, yet didnt get tower defense registered, this is so kittenen kitten anet!

[FiremageUK.7950]

Same here. I killed 4 players, destroyed a ram and repaired a gate but no keep keeper credit...

Edited April 16, 2023 by FiremageUK.7950

[Efar.8153]

please delete

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Efar.8153
please delete