What this game needs is .. just a steady future

[tzaeru.3742]

At this very moment, GW2 is in amazing spot all things considered. It's a great time to begin the game as a newbie; WvW has gotten some attention; there's more end-game PvE content than ever before; class balance is - compared to where it has been - in a decent spot; so on.

There are of course a few larger things that maybe need a bit of tweaking. WvW still needs to be about guilds rather than servers; it might be good if there's a bit more commitment shown to a particular style of end-game content; some older content really should have a brief balancing pass done both in regards to rewards but also challenge levels. There has been some power creep after all.

But none of that is as important as just having a steady stream of content updates, smaller and larger, and having a steady influx of new players trying the game out to replace the playerbase that moves elsewhere. GW2 is better than it's ever been before and that is a great thing. From ArenaNet's comms it seems that the future is quite bright and content updates are to be expected for many years to come.

My top #1 hope for the next content update is this - no matter what tweaks are involved, invest some serious money into marketing this game. It's never been a better time to start playing it. It's the time to reach those players who haven't yet tried the game out. I recall seeing one or two End of Dragons ads and it was far too little compared to the visibility the competitors have.

[Myror.7521]

I will correct ya here. It is in an amazing spot for newbies. For Veterans well in a Bad Spot as Always. For PvP? Well that gamemode is ignored since years so It could at least Not get worse. WvW? Okay Spot at least they Work at that GvGvG thingy^^ 

 

Still saying its in an amazing spot is actually a Bit wrong xd

Edited March 27, 2023 by Pati.2438

[tzaeru.3742]

41 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

I will correct ya here. It is in an amazing spot for newbies. For Veterans well in a Bad Spot as Always. For PvP? Well that gamemode is ignored since years so It could at least Not get worse. WvW? Okay Spot at least they Work at that GvGvG thingy^^ 

 

Still saying its in an amazing spot is actually a Bit wrong xd

PvP has been quite ignored, that's true, but WvW has been getting more attention.

I'm yet to see a MMO where the PvE veterans who've put thousands of hours into it didn't complain about the end game being too shallow/there being nothing to do/balance being wrong... It's the same in every MMORPG, and it's not the fault of those MMORPGs; the problem rather is the expectations people have. Unless we one day start producing content with AI tools, there's just no way for human developers to keep pushing out stuff at the pace veterans are consuming it.

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

[voltaicbore.8012]

12 minutes ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

Easy - a combination of sunk cost fallacy, and the fact that the few positives are unique enough in the industry to force us to be here despite all the jaded bitterness.

The sunk costs part is true for just about any MMO a player commits a lot of hours and effort to - your account ends up with a lot of cool stuff in it, and it's hard to just walk away from all that.

For the unique positives, I'll just stick with combat, movement, and QoL. For an MMO, GW2 combat is retty fast and fluid, and the successful combination of action & tab-target elements isn't a combination you'll really find elsewhere. Movement generally (and mounts in particular) are things Anet nailed down much better than many of the competitors out there. As for QoL (and generally pro-consumer practices) it's hard to match GW2. Once I figured out what's going on in here, most other games feel like they're nickel and diming you, to the point where it doesn't feel like "oh other games are making different choices" so much as "oh other games are making inferior choices."

The game obviously isn't perfect, but it certainly has staying power despite its glaring flaws.

[Danikat.8537]

24 minutes ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

That's a good point. 'Veteran' implies you've been playing for a while, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans it seems odd anyone would stick around for long once they reached that point.

I think I can call myself a veteran player (I've been here since the betas, taken some breaks but none longer than a few months) and I think it will vary a lot between people, depending on how much time you have and what you like to do. I never play PvP and rarely raid but otherwise I'll do everything in the game, including repeating the story on different characters. My average play time has always been around 2 hours per day (in reality it varies a lot between days, from nothing at all to about 4-5 hours) and I've still got plenty of things I want to do in the game and I still enjoy doing them.

But if someone is able to spend more time playing per day, gets through things more quickly than I do (which really isn't difficult) and/or isn't interested in all parts of the game it's not surprising they'll run out of things to do sooner or later. I don't think it's possible to make content for a game more quickly than players can complete it.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Danikat.8537

[tzaeru.3742]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Easy - a combination of sunk cost fallacy, and the fact that the few positives are unique enough in the industry to force us to be here despite all the jaded bitterness.

Yeah, the jaded bitterness is what one will hear on every MMO and even non-MMOs like ARPGs.

I recall people with thousands of hours into a game endlessly complain about the end-game at last in Elder Scrolls Online, Warframe, Destiny 2, Path of Exile .. even WoW's reddit has highly upvoted threads akin to "End game is boring".

Yes, when one spends thousands of hours into a game it tends to get boring for most, no matter what.

Actually the phenomena is quite common outside gaming, too. Even in relationships - people get bored with their spouse, don't find anything exciting about them, fail to solve the situation to their satisfaction and build up bitterness towards their spouse for the next decade.

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

But if someone is able to spend more time playing per day, gets through things more quickly than I do (which really isn't difficult) and/or isn't interested in all parts of the game it's not surprising they'll run out of things to do sooner or later. I don't think it's possible to make content for a game more quickly than players can complete it.

This is my thoughts too.

Over the last few years I've reflected a bit on why I burn out of games and never seem to find a MMO I liked in the long term. Eventually I realized it's really mostly because I obsess over the grind, try to speedrun my way into all achievements etc, and then burn out. The game becomes boring.

GW2 is pretty unique in the regard that it doesn't really make me feel like I need to do things. In WoW for example, you need to grind the new gear fast so you can utilize it effectively, before it gets out-dated. Same in say, Warframe.

Someone somewhere wrote that GW2 values your time. And that's very true. It's a MMO where you can participate effectively in all content without being always grinding for the new sets etc.

To some players that will also mean boring. The WoW gear treadmill for example is something that keeps players always chasing for something new.

Edited March 27, 2023 by tzaeru.3742

[Astralporing.1957]

14 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

From ArenaNet's comms it seems that the future is quite bright and content updates are to be expected for many years to come.

Practically no MMORPG Dev is ever going to claim anything else about their game unless the decision to shut it down has been already made (and often not even then, until it actually happens). There are few exceptions to that, but their involve either a sequel reveal, or a messup of so massive proportions it just cannot be hidden away.

An example: in case of Wildstar and City of Heroes (both NCSoft games, like GW2 is) the devs tried to be optimistic about the game's future up until the moment shutdown (and the dissolution of game studios responsible for those games) got announced.

So, i would not try to read too much about the overall positive spin of the news, and concentrate more on actual, hard info we'd be getting (of which there's currently very little).

[voltaicbore.8012]

15 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

My top #1 hope for the next content update is this - no matter what tweaks are involved, invest some serious money into marketing this game.

I think more than money, they need an actual not-silly marketing strategy. ArenaNet has put out some of what I believe is the most ill-considered marketing in the past.

I think the few semi-visible things they have tried in recent years made much more sense, but I'm thinking they need to start talking to some of the bigger MMO content creators (the type who don't just play, but also dedicate a significant portion of their airtime to critical discussion) who've recently lavished praise on GW2... rather than sponsoring a random one-off video from streamers who don't seem to cultivate the kind of audience GW2 might appeal to.

[Swagger.1459]

19 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

At this very moment, GW2 is in amazing spot all things considered. It's a great time to begin the game as a newbie; WvW has gotten some attention; there's more end-game PvE content than ever before; class balance is - compared to where it has been - in a decent spot; so on.

There are of course a few larger things that maybe need a bit of tweaking. WvW still needs to be about guilds rather than servers; it might be good if there's a bit more commitment shown to a particular style of end-game content; some older content really should have a brief balancing pass done both in regards to rewards but also challenge levels. There has been some power creep after all.

But none of that is as important as just having a steady stream of content updates, smaller and larger, and having a steady influx of new players trying the game out to replace the playerbase that moves elsewhere. GW2 is better than it's ever been before and that is a great thing. From ArenaNet's comms it seems that the future is quite bright and content updates are to be expected for many years to come.

My top #1 hope for the next content update is this - no matter what tweaks are involved, invest some serious money into marketing this game. It's never been a better time to start playing it. It's the time to reach those players who haven't yet tried the game out. I recall seeing one or two End of Dragons ads and it was far too little compared to the visibility the competitors have.

Studio Update: Guild Wars 2 in 2023 – GuildWars2.com

[mythical.6315]

19 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

I'm yet to see a MMO where the PvE veterans who've put thousands of hours into it didn't complain about the end game being too shallow/there being nothing to do/balance being wrong... It's the same in every MMORPG, and it's not the fault of those MMORPGs; the problem rather is the expectations people have. Unless we one day start producing content with AI tools, there's just no way for human developers to keep pushing out stuff at the pace veterans are consuming it.

The issue is that, unlike other MMOs, ArenaNet doesn't invest in creating endgame content.  The closest that we've seen in years are strikes and a fractal that's supposed to be release maybe sometime this year.  Even the amount of content that they release with their updates is subpar to other MMOs.  They also just take so long to create stuff for some reason.  What happened to the efficiency that they had when developing the game over 10 years ago?

19 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

What's helping GW2 out right now is that there is no subscription so a lot of veteran players just stop playing the game and then come back whenever they eventually release something new.  Of course those players will not be back for long, before going on another hiatus, if they continue to release subpar updates such as with the one we got about a month ago. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by mythical.6315

[Noah Salazar.5430]

This game just need milk us more

i want give them gems/$, but i'm not into fashion

i'm glad thay started doing expansions more often, so now i will have anythink to spend on

[Bakeneko.5826]

21 hours ago, tzaeru.3742 said:

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

As close to 10 years as GW2 player, I can say - no pressure from guild to login for daily xp grind, or grind months after expac drops for BIS gear. After I made all legendaries my 4 main classes can use, I can just join whenever I have time, no pressure and after expac/update with new stat combo drops, log in, respec, spend like 1-2 hours on golem to learn rotas and go about my day.

To compare with my old Lineage2 days: Monday - Thursday is static party XP grind in party zones (mandatory, or get kicked from static/clan after couple of absence back to back), Friday - day off from game, Saturday - raids (what open world bosses we can find alive/spawn via quests or items), Sunday - solo xp just to keep up with money/etc. After every major update we would grind 4-5 hours DAILY got get max level ASAP and start farming money for gear or mats for crafting gear. So yeah, GW2, in comparison, is very chill MMO, even if you want to stay at the top of the game (and are no longer a student). 

[stormemperor.3745]

What this game needs is an option turn off CGI effects. (all legendaries, infusions, skill effects, trails, shouts, gazillion of aoes in wvw) Small circle indicator enough for all.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 3/27/2023 at 12:28 PM, tzaeru.3742 said:

My question is, if the game has always been in a bad spot for veterans, why are the veterans still playing?

Because it occupies a niche on the market in which it is pretty much alone. For a lot of players, if they were to give up on GW2, they simply have nowhere else to go.

Notice, that part of it is because GW2 is not so insistent on focusing on so-called endgame content, but considers a much wider variety of activities to be part of endgame. For those that like the Open World part of the game (which seems to be majority of GW2 players), there's simply nowhere else to go, because it's something other games mostly ignore.

[Gibson.4036]

If ANet was in a truly healthy place they should have announced when the second half of Gyala is expected and a time frame for release of the first mini-expac. The fact that they are unwilling to commit to timeframes means there is internal uncertainty.

Look at Star Wars and the MCU. Both have gone from “Here’s the awesome stuff we’re doing over the next two to three years and when you can expect them” to “release date pending” and “in development”. It doesn’t take insider leaks to know that there is a lot of uncertainty in the company.

Im not dooming here. GW2 may have a bright future. All companies go through rough spots and have to find new footing.  But ANet is clearly navigating an uncertain patch right now.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[soul.9651]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

As close to 10 years as GW2 player, I can say - no pressure from guild to login for daily xp grind, or grind months after expac drops for BIS gear. After I made all legendaries my 4 main classes can use, I can just join whenever I have time, no pressure and after expac/update with new stat combo drops, log in, respec, spend like 1-2 hours on golem to learn rotas and go about my day.

To compare with my old Lineage2 days: Monday - Thursday is static party XP grind in party zones (mandatory, or get kicked from static/clan after couple of absence back to back), Friday - day off from game, Saturday - raids (what open world bosses we can find alive/spawn via quests or items), Sunday - solo xp just to keep up with money/etc. After every major update we would grind 4-5 hours DAILY got get max level ASAP and start farming money for gear or mats for crafting gear. So yeah, GW2, in comparison, is very chill MMO, even if you want to stay at the top of the game (and are no longer a student). 

Its not about a gear... Its about getting more new instanced content for veteran players.. if you are the veteran lets say who only plays raids or fract cms, it wont matter if you dont have to grind your gear after a long break when there is literally nothing new to play for you..... 

[TheLadyOfTheRings.9148]

I've been playing for 6 or 7 years now and I agree that it's a great spot 🙂 It does need improvement though, as many players including veterans having been making complaints for years.

[Khisanth.2948]

15 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I think more than money, they need an actual not-silly marketing strategy. ArenaNet has put out some of what I believe is the most ill-considered marketing in the past.

I think the few semi-visible things they have tried in recent years made much more sense, but I'm thinking they need to start talking to some of the bigger MMO content creators (the type who don't just play, but also dedicate a significant portion of their airtime to critical discussion) who've recently lavished praise on GW2... rather than sponsoring a random one-off video from streamers who don't seem to cultivate the kind of audience GW2 might appeal to.

I have no idea if YouTube is just hiding all its GW2 videos from me but from my perspective GW2 needs more people making content period. Other than the very occasional Teapot video I hardly ever see any other GW2 videos recommended. I seem more recommendations for games I don't play than I do for GW2.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

I have no idea if YouTube is just hiding all its GW2 videos from me but from my perspective GW2 needs more people making content period. Other than the very occasional Teapot video I hardly ever see any other GW2 videos recommended. I seem more recommendations for games I don't play than I do for GW2.

On stream today Mukluk, another streamer, mentioned he's not playing GW2 as much. He's still keeping his Tuesday GW2 stream time, but using other times to play other games. He's made a ton of videos over the years, and has done everything he wants to do in game.

[voltaicbore.8012]

6 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

I have no idea if YouTube is just hiding all its GW2 videos from me but from my perspective GW2 needs more people making content period. Other than the very occasional Teapot video I hardly ever see any other GW2 videos recommended. I seem more recommendations for games I don't play than I do for GW2.

Honestly GW2 is sorely lacking YT presence outside the usual suspects (Teapot, WP [who himself didn't make vids for a big long stretch recently], and Mukluk [who is also, as someone noted, now doing GW2 less]).

There are people outside the GW2 bubble who do make GW2 content, and some even get repeat sponsorships from Anet (Josh Strife Hayes comes to mind). The issue with creators like Josh (who are pretty talented, regularly insightful, and reliably entertaining) is that the best ones tend not to focus enough on GW2 to really be worth more than the occasional sponsorship from Anet. It's a chicken-and-egg problem, in my mind. It's hard to get someone to dedicate a lot of their channel to GW2 for the long run, if the YT metrics don't scream for it. But in order to get those metrics to look better for potential creators, Anet needs to convince more creators to more regularly make more stuff about it.

I believe Anet can break that stalemate by sponsoring (or making in-house) a high production value short film or series about something in GW2 that is compelling. For instance, I am only vaguely and tangentially plugged into the universe of Warhammer 40K. I've never played the tabletop or videogame installments of it, and I don't really consume books or comics about it either. 

However, one very talented person recently made a short series of animations (compiled into one video in the link) about some Space Marines doing something that I still don't quite understand fully... but man is the series just COOL. If Anet could somehow generate that kind of work (and promote it to some level of popularity/virality) about Tyria, I think that might be a way to reach outside the bubble.

NOTE: the Astartes series I linked, the creator pretty much got bought out by GW (Games Workshop, the people who own/run Warhammer) and the original videos are now behind GW's rather hostile "everything fan made is infringement" paywall. The link is hosted on a channel that is not the original creator. You can actually follow along the saga of GW's increasingly baring its fangs against its own community in the video description and pinned comment. I guess that's one thing Anet doesn't do, which is stifle outside creativity relevant to Tyria. They just might need to cultivate more of it, is all.

Edited March 28, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012