I bought a tag, kicked a newbie, and now I'm a demon lord

[Dadnir.5038]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:17 PM, scout.9723 said:

See, here's my one and only excuse: I was mentally exhausted and haven't had any sleep after a day and a half's work. That's it.

I've been in such situation one to many time and if I have a good tips to give you it's that when mentally exhausted the best thing to do is to rest in a stressless environment.

MMORPGs are illsuited for such rest, from experience they only make things worse. In some case it can even lead to a burn out (which you might not be far off granted that you find necessary to justify yourself on a forum).

Disconnect, sleep, breath some fresh air and have fun with some friends IRL for a few days. That's what you need right now.

[stormemperor.3745]

Waiting for season 2.

[Ashantara.8731]

I find it interesting how many on here seem to hold to opinion that a Commander must also be a mentor/teacher/leader at all times and always bring the time required to properly fill that role.

That's nonsense. Sometimes you just tag up for something because nobody else is. You organize a squad and rely on everyone doing their job without you holding their hand.

If you put such high expectations into every Commander, it's no wonder that people are often reluctant to tag up for a quick run to get their dailies done.

 

[Passerbye.6291]

I like how entitled we, as people, have become that we expect things to be handed to us and have the audacity to blame others when the expectations in question aren't met. People need to realize no one owes them any favours.

Here's the thing, your group your rules, no one gets to dictate who you allow in or how you wish to run your squad. And this includes people who ask for 4 years straight of full clears for a wing 1 run for instance, or 6.2 million UFE for fractal CMs and wait in the LFG for 3 hours. Do I think it is dumb? yes, hilariously so. But one must realize that it is their prerogative to host such a run.

While I often let newbies stick around for most content, there are times you just want to get things done or you've simply filled your daily quota for weird kitten like:
- People going "hi, dps" after joining when it's 4/5 or 9/10 and you explicitly asked for quick/alac heal
- You looking for quickdps and a reaper joins, you wait couple of minutes for them to switch to harbi because you are still holding on to that last shred of faith in humanity but he doesn't. You then ask him whether he is quickness, he responds saying yes and proceeds to play "quickness reaper".
- A fractal god HFB joins CMs making you sigh a breath of relief, only for him to provide no quick or healing while doing absolutely no damage, making you scratch your head wondering how that's possible, so you ask him, and he says he grants the party quickness with his tomes.

So yeah, I completely get your situation and support it. When a commander allows newbies to join and explains mechanics, it is something he/she does to help others, he/she is not getting anything out of it. So, when this happens, people should feel grateful, not consider that a given and act entitled and feel disappointed when it doesn't.

Edit note: Hate people who go "no one looks at training anyway huehue" and list everything in experienced. If I'm listing my run in experienced, it means you need to have done it before, if you don't and I kick you, you only have yourself to blame.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Dibit.6259]

The main thing to focus on here is that you clearly stated you were looking for experienced people in both lfg and via chat. Regardless on how easy the content is considered those were the requirements you set out. Fair enough he can join and ask if thats ok but also should be prepared to leave or be kicked if the commander decides that its not something they are willing to teach or have to deal with. Ultimately its your squad dude so you can make whatever decision you want regardless of whether others consider it good or bad, though in this case its just neutral/fair. Unless you said something in particular that was considered directly insulting the player those left who berated you for making that decision should just up and leave if they have a problem. You have no duty to any player other than the bare necessity you set out in the lfg and whats required from the content, which in this case was to set up a squad for a strike for experienced players.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Dibit.6259
typos

[Zaryia.9846]

I don't see any wrong here. 

The newbie player should of joined a training group, that is the reason there are two different tabs in LFG.

I also want to point out that there is no game penalty for being kicked, they can join another right away.

 

[Sobx.1758]

You stated who you're looking for, the newbie was fair enough to not hide he's new, but even with that in mind he took a chance by joining your squad. Which is fine. On the other hand what's less fine is asking a question without being ready accepting the response ("I'm new can I stay?"; -"no, sorry"; "ok, but that's not the response I wanted to hear so I'll stay anyways") isn't really asking a question. Seems your goal and reasoning were clear enough, not sure there's an issue here.

[Obtena.7952]

I think the mistake was that the OP was too subtle. If you want a smooth run, you want people to join that know the encounter. You have to clearly set that expectation that this is a KWTD run. 

[Linken.6345]

39 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think the mistake was that the OP was too subtle. If you want a smooth run, you want people to join that know the encounter. You have to clearly set that expectation that this is a KWTD run. 

what is kwtd?

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

what is kwtd?

Know What To Do

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

14 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I find it interesting how many on here seem to hold to opinion that a Commander must also be a mentor/teacher/leader at all times and always bring the time required to properly fill that role.

Um... yes?  That's what I've been doing.  If I'm not fit to command that day, I don't tag up.  Which sucks, because my poor health means I am less capable on each day.  However, I have operated under the assumption that the power to gather people, organize groups, and lead others also came with the responsibility to do a good job at it.

[Cyninja.2954]

46 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Um... yes?  That's what I've been doing.  If I'm not fit to command that day, I don't tag up.  Which sucks, because my poor health means I am less capable on each day. 

This doesn't make any sense from a macro perspective.

Limiting/reducing the reason or amount of times players should tag up by narrowing down the reason to do so with as much responsibility as possible would hardly improve the situation, least of all in this game.

Ramping up the expectations on a tag to this level is synonimous with expecting open world tags to explain every single event or mechanic. Or never allow WvW gather tags. That would only reduce the overall amount of commander tags and THAT would not be beneficial.

46 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

However, I have operated under the assumption that the power to gather people, organize groups, and lead others also came with the responsibility to do a good job at it.

Your definig paramterers for "good" are highly subjective.

A "good" commander tag is merely one which succeeds at what it sets out to do. That's all it does or should do.

If gathering up a couple of players to clear a specific type of content was the goal, that's all that tag needs to do ideally with anything which goes into maximizing success. In case of experienced players, it would even be wasteful to explain every single mechanic or issues which comes up. 

If merely pointing out: here is an event! is the goal, say for other players to notice, then that is more than fine and no players should ger discouraged for throwing up a commander symbol just for a moment.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[soul.9651]

Well if the narative is "fullfill your lfg expectations no matter what" its time to start kicking veterans too who joins cm runs while "not fullfilling my expectations" and performing like crap 🙂 seems like people want to bring this on themselfs

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This doesn't make any sense from a macro perspective.

Limiting/reducing the reason or amount of times players should tag up by narrowing down the reason to do so with as much responsibility as possible would hardly improve the situation, least of all in this game.

Ramping up the expectations on a tag to this level is synonimous with expecting open world tags to explain every single event or mechanic. Or never allow WvW gather tags. That would only reduce the overall amount of commander tags and THAT would not be beneficial.

 

No it won't.  The expectations for competency are not uncommon; this isn't some novel idea being thrust upon the masses by me alone.  Clearly, the players should rise to the challenge, as countless already do.

 

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Your definig paramterers for "good" are highly subjective.

 

I never set "defining parameters" for good.  You're just shoving words in my mouth to try and force some caricature.  

 

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

A "good" commander tag is merely one which succeeds at what it sets out to do. That's all it does or should do.

Yet somehow you see no correlation between responsible commanding and success... Cut the act.  You know darn well what proportionality is, so stop pretending you don't to be contrary for the sake of confrontation.  

[Zohane.7208]

16 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I find it interesting how many on here seem to hold to opinion that a Commander must also be a mentor/teacher/leader at all times and always bring the time required to properly fill that role.

That's nonsense. Sometimes you just tag up for something because nobody else is. You organize a squad and rely on everyone doing their job without you holding their hand.

If you put such high expectations into every Commander, it's no wonder that people are often reluctant to tag up for a quick run to get their dailies done.

 

This, right here.

I've been happy tagging up and pulling together a group of experienced people to do strikes or OW content, but if the expectation is (or will be) that I be ready to teach any and everyone in the squad how the thing works and how they should play their roles then I guess it's time to stop doing it and hope someone else will organize squads. Otherwise I guess a lot of people won't get stuff done.

Organizing and "leading" a squad where people know what to do is a completely different thing than being ready to teach then what to do.

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, Zohane.7208 said:

Organizing and "leading" a squad where people know what to do is a completely different thing than being ready to teach then what to do.

Exactly. Not every squad is automatically a learning group!

Besides, there are people even reacting annoyed when they get too much input from their Commander. 😉

I remember tagging up for "IBS5+DS+EoD daily" the other week, with no KP requirements for a change. I asked if there were any new players who needed explanations, but got no response.

One (let's call them) "overly eager" person was constantly opening the next Strike Mission instance. After the third time, I wrote, "Could you please leave the instance opening to me? Thank you."

Then, that same person wouldn't wait for the Ready Check to go through and rushed into Boneskinner with three people not being ready yet. My reaction was, "May I ask why you triggered the boss prematurely?" No response. We GG'd and restarted the encounter. Before the Ready Check I had posted "Please stack on tag and don't stand left of the Commander, or you will create a cluster of deadly AoEs" in squad chat; yet during the fight at least three people would constantly cluster**** the ground by standing far off to the left of my tag, which made the whole thing a rather unpleasant fight. At the end, I wrote, "Next time, please be so kind as to stack on tag, thank you."

At the Whisper of Jormag, I gave the instruction: "Mechanists, please place your Mechs @ center of boss in the last phase using Shift Signet to block the orbs, thank you!" Of course, they didn't.

At Shiverpeaks Pass, I stated in chat: "Everyone feel free to collect all the chests on the way to the boss 🙂" Of course, someone - again - didn't wait for everyone to finish and be ready but triggered the encounter prematurely.

End of story: My reward for being polite and giving basic instructions in a non-KP group was two people leaving after Dragonstorm, before we got to do the EoD daily (which was likely their plan all along), and not even stating their role before doing so, and that one "overly eager" player calling me "Cringe commander" before leaving my squad. We had to waste time to LFG again, and I had to stomach the ungratefulness for tagging up in an effort to get the dailies done as smoothly as possible.

Hence I totally get the desire to just team up with experienced players and get stuff done without much ado. 😉

 

P.S. I should add that I tag up for Strikes quite often and that the aforementioned experience is more of an exception than the rule.

I also allow non-KP players into my KP groups when they say that they know the mechanics -- it's really no big deal, especially when I have the time to redo a mission like HT or OLC if we fail the first time.

I merely wanted to point out, in general, that not all groups are for beginners and that there is nothing wrong with that.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 

No it won't.  The expectations for competency are not uncommon; this isn't some novel idea being thrust upon the masses by me alone.  Clearly, the players should rise to the challenge, as countless already do.

Yes, if only every player would do that, alas they do not.

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I never set "defining parameters" for good.  You're just shoving words in my mouth to try and force some caricature.  

Actually I am not, you called into question that: "mentor/teacher/leader at all times" is not unreasonable to be expected and then bragged how you yourself provide this constantly, even at poor health.

You could have phrased this as say: you personally approach commanding in XYZ way, but respect other players choice to do things differently. You specifically decided to not do so though clearly showing your bias.

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Yet somehow you see no correlation between responsible commanding and success... Cut the act.  You know darn well what proportionality is, so stop pretending you don't to be contrary for the sake of confrontation.  

That is not what I said. Try again.

Here let me help: what I said was that the amount of "responsibility" a commander should be burdened with, aka what others expect of him, is directly proportional to the goal set for his squad (which he hopefully communicated via the LFG or map chat). To demand more or expect more (or less for that matter )is foolish imo.

I'm not being contrarian. I merely disagree with having some players dictate how others are to play. That includes telling others what their responsibilities are when they tag up.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Dibit.6259]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Exactly. Not every squad is automatically a learning group!

Besides, there are people even reacting annoyed when they get too much input from their Commander. 😉

I remember tagging up for "IBS5+DS+EoD daily" the other week, with no KP requirements for a change. I asked if there were any new players who needed explanations, but got no response.

One (let's call them) "overly eager" person was constantly opening the next Strike Mission instance. After the third time, I wrote, "Could you please leave the instance opening to me? Thank you."

Then, that same person wouldn't wait for the Ready Check to go through and rushed into Boneskinner with three people not being ready yet. My reaction was, "May I ask why you triggered the boss prematurely?" No response. We GG'd and restarted the encounter. Before the Ready Check I had posted "Please stack on tag and don't stand left of the Commander, or you will create a cluster of deadly AoEs" in squad chat; yet during the fight at least three people would constantly cluster**** the ground by standing far off to the left of my tag, which made the whole thing a rather unpleasant fight. At the end, I wrote, "Next time, please be so kind as to stack on tag, thank you."

At the Whisper of Jormag, I gave the instruction: "Mechanists, please place your Mechs @ center of boss in the last phase using Shift Signet to block the orbs, thank you!" Of course, they didn't.

At Shiverpeaks Pass, I stated in chat: "Everyone feel free to collect all the chests on the way to the boss 🙂" Of course, someone - again - didn't wait for everyone to finish and be ready but triggered the encounter prematurely.

End of story: My reward for being polite and giving basic instructions in a non-KP group was two people leaving after Dragonstorm, before we got to do the EoD daily (which was likely their plan all along), and not even stating their role before doing so, and that one "overly eager" player calling me "Cringe commander" before leaving my squad. We had to waste time to LFG again, and I had to stomach the ungratefulness for tagging up in an effort to get the dailies done as smoothly as possible.

Hence I totally get the desire to just team up with experienced players and get stuff done without much ado. 😉

 

P.S. I should add that I tag up for Strikes quite often and that the aforementioned experience is more of an exception than the rule.

I also allow non-KP players into my KP groups when they say that they know the mechanics -- it's really no big deal, especially when I have the time to redo a mission like HT or OLC if we fail the first time.

I merely wanted to point out, in general, that not all groups are for beginners and that there is nothing wrong with that.

 

This is why people ask for KP or experienced people. This trend of entering end game content with no clue what to do or listening to commands has been getting worse and worse over the years. Some feel entitled to get whatever they want in game with little to no effort. Not every encourter requires god teir dps or people to overperfrom but to not even follow directions and communicate is just beyound me at times. Some people also don't seem to understand the level of effort and how tiring leading and teaching can be. They call it toxic to kick those not experienced in that encounter for a clear run but don't find it toxic that they put more strain on the other squad memebers because they don't meet the requirements 🙄

Edited April 28, 2023 by Dibit.6259
typos

[Passerbye.6291]

People will bomb me with confusion reactions for this but it baffles me that so many bottom feeders think it is ok to grief an experienced run and cost everyone time by causing wipes but think it is toxic for the commander to get rid of the problem at hand.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp, but joining a group requiring any amount of KP or actually asking you to know the fight (tho listing it in experienced should already imply this but whatever) while you don't meet those requirements is not a decent thing to do. It is downright selfish to think that 9 random people somehow owe it to you to carry you and that your wishes are above theirs.

Now, if you join an experienced run, state that you're new, that's understandable, you're just trying your luck, you just need to understand that you may be denied and that it is normal.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[zeyeti.8347]

On 4/27/2023 at 11:16 AM, soul.9651 said:

Sure but how many people want to join guild yet cant find one?so if some cant find the guild to join despite asking people for it in forums or reddit, can you call it having an option to join the guild?

Looking for guild is always up with some of them being beginner friendly . If they don't want to make the little effort to join one they should understand that the kind of content we are talking about will be very hard to reach

 

12 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Well if the narative is "fullfill your lfg expectations no matter what" its time to start kicking veterans too who joins cm runs while "not fullfilling my expectations" and performing like crap 🙂 seems like people want to bring this on themselfs

There is a difference between someone failing a mechanic and someone who doesnt understand or know the mechanic (running away like a dead chicken with a green 'social activity' aoe / Or pressing on the last seconde a dash who get you off the group while having this aoe , one is a lack of knowledge , the other is just bad luck , wrong button or input ... that can happen to anyone)

Edited April 28, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I am not blaming you for anything and I am not mocking you for doing it in a "normal" run. Under your health condition, in your situation it was a rational decision. It happened. The only advise I can give you is: know your limits and know what to do, when you have reached them. This is however not something that can be learned in a single situation. It is an ongoing, life-long process.

If you are exhausted and you know you can only play this content under 100 % ideal conditions, you are not in a condition to play. If one of your other members suffered from connection issues, or had personal reasons to go afk mid-run, what would you have done? If you cannot handle anything but a perfect run, doing group content with humans is definitely the wrong decision. Too many variables, too many things that can go sideways. There is never a guarantee for a perfect run, even if you filter people with kps.

I wish you the wisdom to not make the same mistake again. You have only got one body and when it is gone, the game is over. Achievements, loot, game-progress, ... those are just numbers. The people you meet online are not numbers. Each of the avatars has a human being made of flesh and bones with a pulsing heart and mind. Everyone has their own personal situation with problems and challenges, just like you. Always keep that in mind.

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Um... yes?  That's what I've been doing.  If I'm not fit to command that day, I don't tag up.  Which sucks, because my poor health means I am less capable on each day.  However, I have operated under the assumption that the power to gather people, organize groups, and lead others also came with the responsibility to do a good job at it.

Leading isn't the same as teaching. Just because you're the one making the squad doesn't mean you're responsible for teaching anyone who joins. Pretty much the only thing it makes you responsible for is organizing squad in the way you want. That of course includes a disorganized squad if that's what you want as someone who creates it.

 

12 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Well if the narative is "fullfill your lfg expectations no matter what" its time to start kicking veterans too who joins cm runs while "not fullfilling my expectations" and performing like crap 🙂 seems like people want to bring this on themselfs

I mean... yes, if you state you're looking for experienced players knowing what they do and during the encounter they clearly keep failing because they don't know what they do... it means they do not fit the squad description and you can thank them for participating to find someone who fits the requirements. I don't know how this is supposed to be some controversial take on the matter, but it feels like you were trying to make it sound like it is? Nobody is "bringing anything on themselves", someone makes a squad and decides what that squad is/will be. I don't see how that's supposed to be wrong as long as it's communicated properly to the rest of the players.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Leading isn't the same as teaching. Just because you're the one making the squad doesn't mean you're responsible for teaching anyone who joins. Pretty much the only thing it makes you responsible for is organizing squad in the way you want. That of course includes a disorganized squad if that's what you want as someone who creates it.

Leading is itself a form of instruction.  However I digress: I'm not saying that every run is a training run.  That doesn't matter much, though.  Even experienced players can be seasoned on different tactics for the same encounters.  It seems like every time I start doing fractals or strikes, there's some new strat that I'm not familiar with.  Almost every time when that conflict arises,  the squad leader (or one of the teammates in fractals) will simply tell me what the new strat is in one to two sentences, and then we carry on from there.  I've been both the recipient of these instructions, as well as the one to give them out as team/squad leader, and I've seen this little teaching exchange happen between others countless times.

Tagging up is an act that broadcasts a promise for success.  People joining the squad is an offering, giving their time and their cooperation in exchange for the mutual goal of victory.  This is communication; a social contract enforced by the mechanical systems that the commanding tag offers.  It is the leader and subordinate dynamic, as seen in countless places in the real world, made manifest in the game itself.  Thus, as a commander it is expected of me to lead AND instruct people in order to succeed.  I despise the whole "commander has absolute power and no duties to anyone" idea because it is really an excuse to be antisocial.

[zeyeti.8347]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Leading is itself a form of instruction.  However I digress: I'm not saying that every run is a training run.  That doesn't matter much, though.  Even experienced players can be seasoned on different tactics for the same encounters.  It seems like every time I start doing fractals or strikes, there's some new strat that I'm not familiar with.  Almost every time when that conflict arises,  the squad leader (or one of the teammates in fractals) will simply tell me what the new strat is in one to two sentences, and then we carry on from there.  I've been both the recipient of these instructions, as well as the one to give them out as team/squad leader, and I've seen this little teaching exchange happen between others countless times.

Tagging up is an act that broadcasts a promise for success.  People joining the squad is an offering, giving their time and their cooperation in exchange for the mutual goal of victory.  This is communication; a social contract enforced by the mechanical systems that the commanding tag offers.  It is the leader and subordinate dynamic, as seen in countless places in the real world, made manifest in the game itself.  Thus, as a commander it is expected of me to lead AND instruct people in order to succeed.  I despise the whole "commander has absolute power and no duties to anyone" idea because it is really an excuse to be antisocial.

Your point . For me commander is just the beacon who sort the group and make sure the group needings are fullfilled (boon , healing , special mech like kiting , etc ...) tahts what they ususally do , but some can let you sort yourself .

If he asks for exp. , people joining must be exp. or else absolute right to dispose of the members , if it's a training and he wants to give explanation  , good to go too .

But ppl joining and expecting the com to just tell them what to do , whatever the lfg asked for , are just lazy , don't want to take time to watch a video about the mechs (you google the name of the encounter + mechanic explanation on video , or even on youtube and you get it ) you don't have time to do that ? well com have not the time for explanation too ! When i tag and i don't want to give explanation it's my right to ask for whatever i want .

You despise com having absolute power and no duties to anyone , well i despite leecher who sneak and expect everyone to carry them , while they are literally a big burden to the group and can make you fail a whole encounter just because they are too lazy to watch or just read about the mechanic . " i don't have time for this !" "well i don't want to spend my time for you neither then , and why should i ? "

Not saying i never give explanation , but when i don't want , i just do not . And com has all rights in a group , the game allows him to do whatever he wants with his squad , that why it is called a commander , should we rename it teacher ? hell no .

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Your point . For me commander is just the beacon who sort the group and make sure the group needings are fullfilled (boon , healing , special mech like kiting , etc ...) tahts what they ususally do , but some can let you sort yourself .

If he asks for exp. , people joining must be exp. or else absolute right to dispose of the members , if it's a training and he wants to give explanation  , good to go too .

But ppl joining and expecting the com to just tell them what to do , whatever the lfg asked for , are just lazy , don't want to take time to watch a video about the mechs (you google the name of the encounter + mechanic explanation on video , or even on youtube and you get it ) you don't have time to do that ? well com have not the time for explanation too ! When i tag and i don't want to give explanation it's my right to ask for whatever i want .

You despise com having absolute power and no duties to anyone , well i despite leecher who sneak and expect everyone to carry them , while they are literally a big burden to the group and can make you fail a whole encounter just because they are too lazy to watch or just read about the mechanic . " i don't have time for this !" "well i don't want to spend my time for you neither then , and why should i ? "

Not saying i never give explanation , but when i don't want , i just do not . And com has all rights in a group , the game allows him to do whatever he wants with his squad , that why it is called a commander , should we rename it teacher ? hell no .

Squad members have duties, too.  If it is the commanders duty to instruct and lead, it is the squaddie's duty to listen and cooperate.