Next Expansion, no Elite specs but?

[mirage.8046]

New core skills would be dope, actually. I know mesmer is basically lacking a phantasm elite (while ether feast is basically a clone heal skill, a phantasm/clone heal would also be cool. I know signet of the ether is basically the closest we have to phantasm heal because its active use recharges phantasm skills). I do have skill ideas in mind but I don't wanna drag on this post. 
 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

42 minutes ago, mirage.8046 said:

New core skills would be dope, actually. I know mesmer is basically lacking a phantasm elite (while ether feast is basically a clone heal skill, a phantasm/clone heal would also be cool. I know signet of the ether is basically the closest we have to phantasm heal because its active use recharges phantasm skills). I do have skill ideas in mind but I don't wanna drag on this post. 
 

 

Now that you mention it, I do wonder if Mirror should be a glamour (it's basically a personal Feedback that heals, after all) and Ether Feast the manipulation. Would be a nerf to the Aegis-on-manipulation trait due to the cooldowns, though.

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now that you mention it, I do wonder if Mirror should be a glamour (it's basically a personal Feedback that heals, after all) and Ether Feast the manipulation. Would be a nerf to the Aegis-on-manipulation trait due to the cooldowns, though.

Dunno, glamour skills are all ground targeted AoE effects, which mirror isn't.

Also ether feast just makes the most sense as a clone skill for me, considering that it's healing directly scales with the amount of clones you have currently up.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Warrior missing Heal/Elites:

Banner of Healing: On Summon heal in in the area for 5000 (1.0 scaling). 5 targets. Pulses protection. Leaves a light field for 5s.

Elite Shout:
"Vicory is Ours!": Grant allies 10 might for 10s/6s, Quickness for 4s/2s, and Superspeed for 4s/2s. Foes in the area are weakened for 10s/6s and take 10 stacks of vulnerability for 10s/6s. 2 ammo charges. 5s between uses. 30s recharge. (Splits are PvE/Comp).

Elite Stance:
Retaliation: Initial effect: gain 5000 barrier and stunbreak. Pulse 200 barrier (0.2 scaling) per second and deal 200 damage (0.1 scaling) to enemies that strike you, this effect cannot critical strike.  Gain 1 might stack for 5s when struck by an attack. 5s duration 40s CD.

 

[mirage.8046]

10 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now that you mention it, I do wonder if Mirror should be a glamour (it's basically a personal Feedback that heals, after all) and Ether Feast the manipulation. Would be a nerf to the Aegis-on-manipulation trait due to the cooldowns, though.

That would be interesting, and yeah I agree that would be another nerf on top of the removal of superspeed and CD reduction from master of manipulations. (mirror afaik doesn't have a 9s CD in PvE anymore.)

If mirror doesn't become a glamour, then I'd propose this glamour heal: create a shelter that heals and strips their conditions per pulse. (Light field or water field?)
Heal them for more health for each condition stripped, and resolution is granted for each unique condition stripped.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Expansion without Elite, can't see it currently so will have to see how they deal with the options don't utilize today. it kind of comes down to how they have broken out the archtypes. That or it also leaves room in place for an all new class/classes and then space to grow elites into them.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Dunno, glamour skills are all ground targeted AoE effects, which mirror isn't.

Also ether feast just makes the most sense as a clone skill for me, considering that it's healing directly scales with the amount of clones you have currently up.

You can't think of any other skill group where most of the skills work in one way but one supplies a crately different method of using it?

Historically, glamours had to be area persistant effects because the trait assumed that, but that trait doesn't exist any more. Mind you, retaining that property does mean the trait, or one like it, could theoretically be brought back in the future.

[Batalix.2873]

I don't think they are going to open up espec weapons: as others have said it would just homogenize builds and dilute the entire point of especs.

 

I also don't think they are likely to add core weapons, if only because a lot of the most logical additions for core additions are also very good candidates for new especs, and doing so would eat into future especs design. However, if they did add core weapons, I would consider that a sign that we aren't getting any more especs.

 

In my opinion, a better, albeit more work-intensive solution, would be to change how core weapons function within each espec. There is a full spectrum of things they could do, from tweaking effects, to changing range/cleave, to full skill reworks. But say, taking a terrible, two-seconds of thought example, Necro axe chilled when wielded by a Reaper but generated barrier when held by a Scourge. By tailoring the effects of each core weapon to better suit each espec's priorities, we could have more options for builds within each espec instead of always choosing "the power weapon" or "the condi weapon".

 

A side effect of this would further separate the core professions from their elite specs in a way that they might actually be tuned up and make core viable. But I think more importantly it would make it easier to fix such things as rifle Mech, Warrior's tyranny of Axe, and mayyyyybe even Ele's "twice as many skills, half as potent" problem.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:22 PM, Lily.1935 said:

After reading the update I honestly have more questions than were really answered.

I'm not on board with this and the "Should exist" doesn't really tell us a whole lot. Should a Minion master exist on one of the elite specs for necromancer? SHOULD a Alacrity build exist for them somewhere? I'd say yes both of those should exist but does arena net agree with me? I'm not so sure. I don't agree that the design space is as limited as they say. But again that's super hard to speculate on. I'd like an Armorer for Engineer and I don't think any of the current elite specs really fit that.

So this statement doesn't really tell me too much, but lets see the next part.

This one has me super curious. Like, what sort of augments? Are we talking about new Traits or weapons? Will Scourge for example get a trait which removes their shades and transforms them into Minions? Because that could be quite cool, although only having 3 would be a bit limiting. Are we going to see new Utility skills or even more than just a limit of 6 of a type? This is something I'd really like to know.

I personally could be happy with only getting new traits or something of similar value. Assuming we get 9-21 new traits per profession that could be quite interesting or a new weapon or two that are available to the core class. There's a lot they could add that would make me happy as a player. So although this statement still leaves me with a lot of questions, overall I'm cautiously optimistic.

Personally, as a Necromancer main coming over from GW1 and since I play a necromancer in every game I can I feel that necromancer is lacking most of the type of builds I enjoy and the fact we don't have a minimum of like 4 minion builds with very different play styles kinda bugs me. And the fact we don't have any weapons that summon minions bugs me as well. I'm sure other players with different professions as their mains have similar feelings for their profession. Like that we can't really effectively run mono element elementalist and a Cryomancer isn't a thing.

I don't know. I want to see more information. I'll continue to speculate. Hopefully they don't bury Elite specs entirely. But maybe their new tools will make me feel we don't need new ones, who knows.

This is a problem with gw2's basic design, where each build depends on a particular weapon. Elite specs or not, gw2 cannot get around this. gw1, as you know, gives you full control of the skill bar. gw2, on the other hand, only gives you the right half (skills 6-10). Having skills depend on the weapon limits the builds you can use.

To me, I'm skeptical of how this is even going to be implemented. Either:

1. New updates will add more core specs.
2. New weapons (that are not tied to an elite spec) will alter the existing core specs.

[Lily.1935]

6 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

This is a problem with gw2's basic design, where each build depends on a particular weapon. Elite specs or not, gw2 cannot get around this. gw1, as you know, gives you full control of the skill bar. gw2, on the other hand, only gives you the right half (skills 6-10). Having skills depend on the weapon limits the builds you can use.

To me, I'm skeptical of how this is even going to be implemented. Either:

1. New updates will add more core specs.
2. New weapons (that are not tied to an elite spec) will alter the existing core specs.

Were you around during the press releases for Guild Wars 2? They used to talk about these old systems with how traits worked back then during that phase of development were each equipped weapon basically had its own set of traits. And you could seriously change the function of those existing weapons through that system. Note that the system was barely developed at the time. So I think we might see more traits which could change weapon and utility skills more.

I'd be pretty happy personally if we saw something similar to the rune system in Diablo III for weapons. You could change those skills pretty radically like transforming their golem from a fleshy boy into a big ice boy or more radically the Crusader had a holy laser which tracked targets that transformed into a focused strike beam similar to prime light beam. But this might be a controversial take as I think quite a few people wouldn't enjoy this.

[Curunen.8729]

I'd like to see any of

- new core weapon(s)

- skill branching evolution upgrades - select between at least two options to tailor a skill for a niche (ie wider radius vs more damage, and so on)

- cross class elements (looking at Warframe subsume type mechanic)

[Lily.1935]

12 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'd like to see any of

- new core weapon(s)

- skill branching evolution upgrades - select between at least two options to tailor a skill for a niche (ie wider radius vs more damage, and so on)

- cross class elements (looking at Warframe subsume type mechanic)

Would you mind elaborating a bit? I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your second and third points. Thank you in advance.

[The Boz.2038]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:58 AM, Curunen.8729 said:

- cross class elements (looking at Warframe subsume type mechanic)

The devs learned their lesson from GW1. This I can guarantee will not happen.

[Curunen.8729]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:13 PM, Lily.1935 said:

Would you mind elaborating a bit? I'm not entirely sure what you mean with your second and third points. Thank you in advance.

Regarding point 2, instead of any given skill having only one version (that can be enhanced by traits), potentially having additional branching upgrades to certain skills that alter how they function more drastically than traits currently do.

Could be done through traits themselves, as there are enough filler traits that can be repurposed. Alternatively it can be done on the weapon skills menu - where you could use some resource to train enhanced versions of skills - but this being finite such that you have to choose which skills you want to spend it on to unlock upgrades to those skills.

It could be too messy on top of the trait system and wreck any semblance of balance left, but may open up a lot of fun customisation. I mean it could just be an extension of the trait system tbh, may be better.

Sorry not got a specific example to share right now.

11 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The devs learned their lesson from GW1. This I can guarantee will not happen.

Fair enough, I suppose elite specs cover this sufficiently anyway.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Quote

In the current design and implementation of elite specializations, we feel that with every new expansion there’s been increasingly limited “design space” left to add new and differentiated roles for each profession. In other words, most of the playstyles that we’d like to see supported for each profession already exist or should exist within their existing elite specialization options.

Why does it matter that each elite spec has to add a new and differentiated role? Do you think Riot cares that League has 50 champions that do the same thing? No. As long as each has unique theme, mechanics, or playstyles. Who cares if two elite specs provide quickness, or alacrity, or healing. Does the fact that they both serve the same role negate the value they bring in the form of expanded gameplay options?

When you eliminate this arbitrary restriction the "design space" becomes limited only by your own creativity. This is just an excuse to convince people to accept the reduced scope of expansions as they repackage living world into paid content.

Just another reason not to give them money. I won't be buying the expansion.

[Lily.1935]

19 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Regarding point 2, instead of any given skill having only one version (that can be enhanced by traits), potentially having additional branching upgrades to certain skills that alter how they function more drastically than traits currently do.

Could be done through traits themselves, as there are enough filler traits that can be repurposed. Alternatively it can be done on the weapon skills menu - where you could use some resource to train enhanced versions of skills - but this being finite such that you have to choose which skills you want to spend it on to unlock upgrades to those skills.

It could be too messy on top of the trait system and wreck any semblance of balance left, but may open up a lot of fun customisation. I mean it could just be an extension of the trait system tbh, may be better.

Sorry not got a specific example to share right now.

So for the first thing you posted Let me see if I'm interpreting this correctly.

Something like a hero panel training where you have specific weapon training you can upgrade. You put hero points into it and advance down a sorta skill tree? Something along those lines?

If that's the case my primary criticism to that it would be a pretty extreme example of power creep. As for how interesting it could be, that depends. I think it could be quite interesting to unlock potential of a weapon that way.

Another Possible interpretation is that we unlock trait upgrades we can slot into weapons that can change the function of a skill. Which might require a new panel for those weapons. This used to be the design in the Alpha of Guild Wars 2, but that has similar issues.

Going to your second point in this post. Traits which change skills I think are nice to have. I'd be on board with that for sure. The other options above I'd need some serious convincing as others might as well.
The other part of that about the skills. Treating weapon skills similarly to utility skills with their own set of options you could slot in is something I'd be in favor of, but that's quite the big leap from our current system. That could be a shakeup that might be more work than we think.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, its all messy. Not uninteresting ideas, I think there's some merit to them, but its probably not the direction I personally would go with it. Except for just using traits to modify existing weapons.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 5/16/2023 at 10:40 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Why does it matter that each elite spec has to add a new and differentiated role? Do you think Riot cares that League has 50 champions that do the same thing? No. As long as each has unique theme, mechanics, or playstyles. Who cares if two elite specs provide quickness, or alacrity, or healing. Does the fact that they both serve the same role negate the value they bring in the form of expanded gameplay options?

When you eliminate this arbitrary restriction the "design space" becomes limited only by your own creativity. This is just an excuse to convince people to accept the reduced scope of expansions as they repackage living world into paid content.

Just another reason not to give them money. I won't be buying the expansion.

Excellent point of view. I pick and play my classes/specs because of the concepts, themes, and playstyles they offer me with various, versatile builds, not because they can do a particular role. In fact, I would stop playing some of them if they were forced into specific roles, especially if those were roles I don't want to do. And I'd sorely miss the concepts and playstyles they provide with their unique profession mechanics and skills.

[fenrir.4532]

I am not losing my hope to see one day tengu as usable race

[Burnfall.9573]

On 5/16/2023 at 10:40 PM, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Why does it matter that each elite spec has to add a new and differentiated role? Do you think Riot cares that League has 50 champions that do the same thing? No. As long as each has unique theme, mechanics, or playstyles. Who cares if two elite specs provide quickness, or alacrity, or healing. Does the fact that they both serve the same role negate the value they bring in the form of expanded gameplay options?

When you eliminate this arbitrary restriction the "design space" becomes limited only by your own creativity. This is just an excuse to convince people to accept the reduced scope of expansions as they repackage living world into paid content.

Just another reason not to give them money. I won't be buying the expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iF-aaLG3qM

LoL- League of Legends, Street Fighter, Overwatch, Dota other games are in Esport.

How can any game companies enter Esport without having Profession roles?

How does one call itself "Competitive" to enter a Competitive Gaming Sport without offering players different Profession Roles to pick and chose from?

Do you know that the other games which I mentioned above, also have Profession roles?

What is the point of having an Identity if Roles do not exist?

example;

How does one identity a Police Officer? With wearing a Firefighter uniform?

How does one identity a Paramedic? With one wearing a Police Uniform?

Just because a Police Officer is offered a new promotion (new Elite Specialization), it does not change its Role as a Law Enforcer.

Just because a Paramedic is offered a new promotion (new Elite Specialization), it does not change its Role as a Emergency Care Practitioner

No matter what, their Promotion remains Intact to their roles.

The Paramedic is not Promoted in Law Enforcement Role

The Police Officer is not Promoted in Emergency Care Practitioner Role

-Did you know that Thief Profession Elite Specialization; Specter, Stole and Hijacked Shroud Specialization from Necromancer Profession?

Can a Police Officer Steal and Hijack a Pandemic Role as its own when being promoted? 

Can a Pandemic Steal and Hijack a Police Officer Role as its own when being promoted? 

  Would A Healthy Competitive Game Allow Profession to Steal Each Other Roles Including Its Identity as its own?

Would Esport Allow that to happen in their Competitive Gaming Sport?

Absolutely Not!!

Am I understanding you correctly??

Edited June 9, 2023 by Burnfall.9573