Delete Ranger Downstate

[Lighter.5631]

14 hours ago, ventress.4879 said:

No........? You lose access to your toolbar so unless you cast it as you went down there is no way to do it. 

Rather than criticising the class's why not play it and see its flaws. It's only good when you get left alone, since you can rez that much quicker.  I'm often surprised how many people forget the Ranger has a quicker resurrect. 

the toolbar disappears, yes.

but if you press the keys, it will still activate the skills.

you can even pet swap while downed.

 

the more you know.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, for all the complaining about it, they fail to see the great liability in lick wounds, that you can punish the ranger for attempting to revive. 

 

As soon as he pushes that #3 just once, you can essentially bleed him and keep him out of the game upwards of a minute and a half before he can actually walk out of the respawn and return to the game.

Why are we pretending like rangers can't stop lick wounds if they're in a bleedout scenario?

This justification is monumentally weak even if it were true, because to keep a ranger downstate while lick wounds is being channeled you have to spend your skills to outdamage the healing. Even if the justification were true this could often lead to a situation where the ranger gets support, essentually guaranteeing they revive.

Rangers can stop lick wounds if they need to regroup.  They're not locked into that choice.

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It's just another case of people misunderstanding the difference between complaining about something annoying and complaining about something that is actually OP.

No. Op has a point.

Ranger as it stands right now wins any engagement where both it and its opponent go downstate guaranteed, except for vs warrior where it has a 75% chance of being a draw. Not only that, because ranger can actively pick itself back up it demands a lot of combat presence in situations where you need to decide whether to cleave them or assist an ally, and can force you to deal with it in scenarios where you'd be able to finish another priority if you were fighting literally anything else.

Its more than annoying. It's not game breaking, but its definitely questionably strong for conquest.

Mind you, nothing needs to change beyond "pet returns to whatever state it had (atrack, return to me) if interrupted during lick wounds", so people can daze your smokescale then do something critical for a few seconds. 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eugchriss.2046]

When you have ranger mains arguing that is ok for core to have acces to espec pet or druid having access to jacaranda you really think they will agree that thier downstate is stupid OP?

lmao, keep it pushing.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Why are we pretending like rangers can't stop lick wounds if they're in a bleedout scenario?

Because it often happens when the other pet is dead so you can't swap, and its F2 just burnt CD before downstate. This gets you prone to a bleed phase where wise players can keep you out of the game a lot longer than what is intended.

Higher tiered players will always punish this, and in fact they will bait you into using lick wounds on purpose so they can do this to you. A classic move is a DP Daredevil stealthing/porting around acting like you're being ignored, then appears and tosses SB4s at you rupt the heals and keep poison on you. In fact, in higher tiered games lick wounds becomes like vengeance and you should never use it unless you are 100% sure it will benefit a revive, otherwise getting locked into bait bled becomes a very real liability.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This justification is monumentally weak even if it were true, because to keep a ranger downstate while lick wounds is being channeled you have to spend your skills to outdamage the healing.

I don't understand why you think I would come in here and lie.

It is especially easy to do near team fights where multiple people can assist the gradual DPS & CC. If you know the ranger doesn't have anyone on his team with instant revives or at least they aren't near him, when higher tiered players are formed together all running high DPS builds with a lot of CC, it is easy to turn the ranger into bait for the other players to attempt to want to revive him, as well as benefitting bleeding the ranger in general so it stays out of combat for a long period of time.

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Rangers can stop lick wounds if they need to regroup.

Not always. When the other pet is dead you can't swap it off. If you used the F2 CD before going into downstate or during the downstate to prevent a stomp or w/e before using #3, you have no way of making the pet stop the revive channel. It's even worse if both pets are dead, and in that case the pet that's reviving you while invuln, won't let you push F2 to make him stop even if it's off CD. It's actually a rather frequent occurrence that can't be so easily predicted due to how sporadic combat can be. I'd also like to point out that your argument here is presenting the strong reality that lick wounds is indeed a waste of the ranger's time to use if he starts it and has to stop it. This = the opponent does what he wanted to do, and that is waste your time bleeding you when you were going to die anyway.

I'm not lying to you or tossing out some ****y ranger defense. I have no reason to do that considering that ranger downstate has remained the same since the launch of the game and clearly Arenanet has no intentions to ever change it. You should know by now, I give very unbiased feedback, and often am the very first person to call out when something on ranger is OP or a stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist.

All I'm doing here is explaining some realities about lick wounds to a bunch of people who clearly don't play ranger. I'm not saying lick wounds isn't useful at times, what I'm saying is that there are risks using it. It isn't the God-Tier advantage people are making it out to be in this thread. Seriously man, anyone who is losing while on their feet to ranger downstate, is a big fat l2p issue. You and I both know this. Anyone running a reasonable decent build should be able to finish a downstate ranger just as fast they could an ele who stalls with mistform. You and I both know this.

I'd also like to point out again that ranger does not see any MAT representation. Apparently the lick wounds isn't exactly allowing the ranger to make pace with other classes.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Duke Nukem.6783]

no, you are downed, the pet isn't.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't understand why you think I would come in here and lie.

You should know by now, I give very unbiased feedback, and often am the very first person to call out when something on ranger is OP or a stupid mechanic that shouldn't exist.

It is precisely because you have an extensive familiarity with Ranger that I responded as I did. I expect a stronger defense than "Lick Wounds is a drawback, actually", because it largely isn't except for in a very specific instance:

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 it often happens when the other pet is dead so you can't swap, and its F2 just burnt CD before downstate.

where all of the variables that would lead to that situation are presented to the ranger player well before they go down. 

Also, that scenario doesn't justify the pet being  uninterruptible.

That being said, all of that is digression. it is harder to play around Ranger downstate than any other downstate, and the fact that a very specific set of circumstances can lead to you getting bled longer than usual if you choose to activate the skill instead of just respawning does very little to offset the numerous situations where it can outright change the flow of whatever skirmish you happen to go down in. 

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Seriously man, anyone who is losing while on their feet to ranger downstate, is a big fat l2p issue. You and I both know this.

True~ 

But nobody is saying that is a problem. The hangup is with:

> Ranger winning any engagement where both they and their opponent go down (except vs Warrior in some cases as mentioned), because the skill can't be interrupted

> Ranger having the most target priority for downstate by nature of its class and not by nature of the game state, because the Lick Wounds skill can't be interrupted.

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clearly Arenanet has no intentions to ever change it.

Likely the case, and as I mentioned before it only matters in a part of the combat loop where most of the time the ranger's going to die anyway. Not a priority. No reason I can't spar with the idea though~

It -is- overtuned though, compared to every other downstate in the game. And ranger's upstate tools don't justify it. 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Profession mechanics skills should not be available in down state. FULL. STOP. Unless of course we are all okay with ALL profession mechanics being available while in downstate?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

21 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Profession mechanics skills should not be available in down state. FULL. STOP. Unless of course we are all okay with ALL profession mechanics being available while in downstate?

Yea lets let necro enter shroud while downstate

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Profession mechanics skills should not be available in down state. FULL. STOP. Unless of course we are all okay with ALL profession mechanics being available while in downstate?

Yes please let me shatter during downstate. Let me show you what happens when I distort your stomp 😄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Exactly, profession mechanics while in downstate is stupid.

[apharma.3741]

5 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yes please let me shatter during downstate. Let me show you what happens when I distort your stomp 😄

Mesmer: Distort/Diversion/bladesong return the stomp
Guardian: Aegis the stomp
Revenant: Legend swap effects...probably a dud though Kalla skills might down a player.
Warrior: Burst skill won't work so I guess Full counter? Could be troll.
Necromancer: Full shroud but no way to use it though scourge might get value.
Elementalist: Yeah no use.
Engineer: Battering ram, toss elixir X, big ole bomb, grenade barrage
Thief: Steal? Maybe the bundle might be of use but yeah another dud.

Edited May 15, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Sandzibar.5134]

On 5/13/2023 at 1:07 AM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

yeah dead pet res takes the cake as the dumbest down state mechanic in the game

closely followed by mistform through back through keep doors etc to prevent death.

remove it all.

 

or even better... remove downstate from pvp/wvw completely.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

44 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Warrior: Burst skill won't work so I guess Full counter? Could be troll.

War's primary weapon is a rock when downed, so... rock burst? Doesn't sound very fun, but throw boulder used to be some 3s stun 9k damage heatseeking rocket, it can do something.

44 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Necromancer: Full shroud but no way to use it though scourge might get value.

Running some quick math, downed HP pool twice your normal HP pool; necro can go up to 30k HP, so downed has some 45k HP (60k, actually, but you have 75% of that when you're downed).  Add some 31k shroud, that's 76k HP, with the damage reduction from shroud. It's the uncleavable class! 

44 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Thief: Steal? Maybe the bundle might be of use but yeah another dud.

I will say: thief class mechanic is initiative.
And I will say: Shadow Escape with no CD.
Kill a thief, they leave this plane of existence. Class has so many out of jail skills anyway, I don't think thief players even know what the kitten happens when they're downed, a thief dies maybe once per year, rest of the time they're just vibing in stealth.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[apharma.3741]

2 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

War's primary weapon is a rock when downed, so... rock burst? Doesn't sound very fun, but throw boulder used to be some 3s stun 9k damage heatseeking rocket, it can do something.

 

Running some quick math, downed HP pool twice your normal HP pool; necro can go up to 30k HP, so downed has some 45k HP (60k, actually, but you have 75% of that when you're downed).  Add some 31k shroud, that's 76k HP, with the damage reduction from shroud. It's the uncleavable class!

Also for some reason downstate shroud makes the number 1 skill do twice as much damage while being uncleavable! 😄

[ventress.4879]

On 5/15/2023 at 4:16 AM, Balsa.3951 said:

u may wanna test urself before tell others. im pretty certain u wrong here again

You are correct I just looked but the use case would just be with Untamed and any beast skill that has a CC. 

You have to remember it will interrupt the resurrection so it's not always the best idea to cast them when you are down. 

Anyway I it will not change so atleast I learned something new out of the discussion after 10 years of playing Gw2. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by ventress.4879

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, ventress.4879 said:

I learned something new out of the discussion after 10 years of playing Gw2. 

 

Nice. Petty arguments are good for something yet again.

 

[Nightcore.5621]

Ranger downed skills always been unfair with that pet ress 

[Luthan.5236]

Well ... it is main season soon again. The "real" PvP. Might be less of a problem then. Just 4 other people can spam AoE pure dps cleaving down the ranger and pet in a few seconds. Anything is less problematic in 5 vs 5 where in 2 vs 2 it can be more annoying especially with certain team combinations. (And if you are too lazy to adapt the build. For people that are not at the top of the skill tier playing a build that can counter anything. with very good player skill)

I mean ... there is also a thread about summons and about moa nerf ... where it probably is less of a problem in 5 vs 5. They all seem to have been created after the mini season went active. (With the 2 vs. 2.)

Edited May 16, 2023 by Luthan.5236

[Balsa.3951]

On 5/14/2023 at 10:32 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, for all the complaining about it, they fail to see the great liability in lick wounds, that you can punish the ranger for attempting to revive. You can make the ranger's choice to attempt to revive much more punishing than a warrior making a poor choice to vengeance. As soon as he pushes that #3 just once, you can essentially bleed him and keep him out of the game upwards of a minute and a half before he can actually walk out of the respawn and return to the game. This is nearly as punishing to his team's rotations as if he had DC'd for that time frame.

Anyone complaining about ranger downstate is experiencing a l2p issue. It is not difficult to control the ranger when it is downstate and punish it like this.

I was going to point out ranger representation rates in MAT but you already made my point right here.

lol Yup.

100% guarantee you that ranger mains would much rather have that downstate revive power removed and the sustain reallocated somewhere into the build for when you're on your feet and not off your feet. Maybe then, ranger could see MAT representation rates.

 

I love this Gold 1 thread though, written completely around the bias of not mentioning how most other classes have similar effects that are either equal or greater to lick wounds, and not only revive themselves but also players, and can stomp from remote locations:

1. Warrior Banner = instantly revives & stomps multiple targets upon use, also can straight get up off the ground and finish a kill for a chance to rally for free with no heal time even required to get up off the ground
2. Guardian Signet = instantly revive a player
3. Engineer Elixir = fast revive, can revive self
4. Scrapper Gyro = revives & stomps, can revive self
5. Necro Signet = revives a player, blood magic prevents players from bleeding and teleports bodies around
6. Mesmer Illus = revives a player
7. Ele Glyph = giga revives and can revive self
8. Druid Glyph = this is a potential giga revive, but any build that this skill is arguably viable on, doesn't contribute much outside of trying to 1v1 on nodes and using the glyph to self heal. It's the same issue Druid has always had, the idea of design is for team support, but it's designed all wrong and the Druid ends up needing to use those skills for personal sustain instead of support. These builds contribute virtually nothing in team fights for this reason, and contribute virtually no impactful damage output either. Point being is that this glyph is still not practical to use in the same way a function gyro is or a banner or a guardian revive, ect ect. Lick Wounds is the only real revive skill a Ranger has and he can only use it on himself.

But regardless of the obvious ^ as well as ranger's complete lack of representation in MAT teams since shortly after POF release, people still complain about it because pets kitten people off. It's like a psychological effect where it makes a person feel like they are getting 2v1'd so they complain about anything & everything that the pet does, even when it is suboptimal compared to what other classes are doing.

IE: I troll ffa or an unranked game on a literal PvE Heal Druid build and insta power revive other players with elite glyph like once per 40 seconds, and no one ever complains about it. But I self revive on ground with #3 lick wounds in a game just once, and even if they still kill me, they have to stop and /s chat some response to make sure I know how annoyed they are with the pet revive.

I mean consider the psychology behind this. It's just another case of people misunderstanding the difference between complaining about something annoying and complaining about something that is actually OP.

thats nonsense no class is balanced around their downstate. u cant be really thinking that.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Edited, points covered, now with 99% less 🦜

Edited May 16, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261