If you're going to add more raids, fix elitism first

[Feanor.2358]

@Torolan.5816 said:I probably already bore people to tears with this, but in my opinion a raid is a long drawn waste of time with 0 fun potential. I never wanted them in GW2 and raged hard against them.

But as a matter of fact I accept that the meta rules surpreme in raids, and probably for good reason. A content that requires or at least encourages meta will inescapably draw elitists as moths are drawn to a flame, and they will inescapably draw the weak willed masses into their webs. Competing a raid will require tireless training under the tutelage of sometimes psychologicaly soso people who work with the idea of having to please all the members of the raid so they can´t take the weak with them. So if you are a completionist with subpar skills on the keyboard, you´re basically screwed if you are bent on making raids and will have to pay for it in the tradition that the inept wealthy always reigned surpeme over the physically strong, smart or dexterous people through money, propaganda or goods.

So don't play them. I find PvP unfun and do I bitch on the forums constantly how it shouldn't have been in the game? No. I simply don't play it. It's a big game. Why do you expect everything in it to be for you? There's a lot of content, targeted at different player.

[Torolan.5816]

I don´t raid and do not plan to raid. i wanted to point out that if you want to play with raiders, you have to play their game or pay.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

If you cut out the possibility of failure you're not playing challenging group content anymore.That wasn't about removing the possibility of failure. Merely about removing/lowering the possibility of bad/inexperienced players failing the content

for the good ones

.Though yes, that would increase the possibility of carrying, so you'd probably still be against it.

in the end, toxicity, elitism and challenging content do seem to be strongly connected. If you want latter, you need to live with the former. If you don't want to promote the former, you can't promote the latter.

[Torolan.5816]

@Teofa Tsavo.9863 said:And then after curing Elitism Anet could go on and end world hunger and climate warming.

Points 2 and 3 would probably not be that much of a problem if if it were not for an elite with interest in keeping 2 and denying 3 for monetary reasons.

[Shirlias.8104]

@Teofa Tsavo.9863 said:And then after curing Elitism Anet could go on and end world hunger and climate warming.

We are working on the climate warming, but the Norn President Donald Braham still push to kill dragons.

[Gaarik.6804]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty?

No it's not a valid point. Every "elitist" out there started by playing with a bunch of "noobies", as you call them, because they were "noobies" themselves.What you are asking here is for a way for those "noobie" players to be accepted into groups of "elitists" because -reasons-. That's never going to happen.If you had the skill as you say to join the "elitists", you'd join them, what exactly is preventing you?

Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

There are couple of ways you can prove it.First that comes to mind is a screen shot of golem dps numbers. (or meter screen of boon up times if you play supports)Second, you could join the "noob" runs and save a log of that run.Third, is what i do when i am to lazy to open my bank, just say to check you on dps meter and your performance and if you are bad to kick you. About 6 out of 10 groups would not mind giving you a chance and the other 4 are usually not great them selves. Since if they are afraid that you are lying then they are used to lie them selves.

[Draco.9480]

No one really cares about the feelings of players that don't know how to play and just want to leech. Improve yourself instead pointing the flaws of content just because the community won't let ya. Fix yer game play is more important. Elitism is in any game, if can't handle it then don't play it.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:it's a valid point, Your logic is that I should play the persuasion game with elitists or pair up with a bunch of noobies that have no chance of success because there are no alternatives to raid difficulty?

No it's not a valid point. Every "elitist" out there started by playing with a bunch of "noobies", as you call them, because they were "noobies" themselves.What you are asking here is for a way for those "noobie" players to be accepted into groups of "elitists" because -reasons-. That's never going to happen.If you had the skill as you say to join the "elitists", you'd join them, what exactly is preventing you?

Really? How do I join them? Send them telepathy that tells them I'm a good player? I mean I announced it on here verbally and look at the reaction I got. Also there is no way to show any of these people my skill because I can't even get into a raid to show them, due to elitism.

I imagine one effective method would be to dry your eyes, and then when you're feeling a bit better, try joining a raiding guild looking to recruit new players. I must admit, it's a little difficult to empathise with you here, the answer to your problems was presented fairly swiftly.

[ChrisLew.5492]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Easy solution: make your own groups (or join groups of non elitists) or better yet, find a guild which shares your values with friendly people who get along with.

You will never have to deal with elitists ever again, and the best part is, both sides get to enjoy the game the way they want.

Except people you’ve blocked can join your groups as soon as it pops on LFG because of the game’s primitive social tools.

[ChrisLew.5492]

@Ohoni.6057 said:The only way to fix the elitism would be to tweak to gameplay to allow non-elites to complete it. So long as "bad players" can prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, groups intending to clear the missions will attempt to cull "bad members" from their ranks. Bad players should not prevent a raid attempt from succeeding, they should, at worst, slow the process down.

Well, no, you can complete a raid with a full team of minion masters—I think someone actually did that on YouTube, if I recall. Sure, it’s not optimal, but it’s fun and it takes skill, too. And that’s the spirit of the game that’s been missing for the last few years: play as you want (but play well).

[tekfan.3179]

I didn't run a single raid yet. I make use of the [qT]-builds when I play T4 fractals and watched some guides on the different bosses in the raid wings, but I honestly don't care for the toxic behaviour while experiencing "new" content.I've experienced enough "elitists" in T4 fractals. Mind you, I'm not talking about the people who want you to somewhat carry your own weight and take the time to see you improve after a wipe or even give you hints on how to do better, as a sane human would do.I'm talking about the people who flame about every passive buff or consumable not fitting the meta and who produce a damage spike for about two seconds, then are neglectable in terms of dps. Of course they ignore the dodging-mechanic and blame their demise on the chrono, sometimes even if there is no chrono in the pug(well, if they don't register the red circles on the ground, the party ui must be a maze for them). Funny...no dodging, failing rotations, you could almost believe that's someone with a macro.

On the other hand, I can fully understand some of the raiders as well. You put in the work of training your performance with a build and learned the mechanics of a boss. Worst case scenario: Someone who just bought the game joins your squad, just after using the lvl80-booster.In the fotm there's at least agony to visually indicate such people, but more than once I've had T4 pugs wipe because people had no clue about mechanics.Then there are potato-builds. I'm not a meta-fanatic, but seeing an elementalist who hugs the fire attunement having less dps than my buddy on his magi druid is depressing.

Maybe Anet could do something with achievements, kinda like the legendary collections.First step: Get a set of ascended gear.Second step: Visit the forward scout.Basically a new NPC in the aerodrome with short tutorial videos on the different bosses. For each boss there is a video and a small quiz you have to answer. For each boss-tutorial you complete, you get a choice of buff-food or utility. Complete them all to get a combat-booster.Third step: Into the fray.One achievement per boss, with the task to kill besaid mob. On fullfilling the task, everyone in the squad receives 10 gold. Of course you need to deal damage as well. You can repeat the achievements three times to get the hang of it.

Since the lfg-tool is always full of squads who sell their slots, I guess that could work.

[Sinfullysweet.4517]

:s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

[JVJD.4912]

Did you know dungeons also had elitism op???Did you know how it got fixed?We made our own groups, eventually ppl who were only asking metas for public groups(link gear) in dungeons gave up as no one was joining their group and were forced to do it with their guild or with other pugs not of their ownWhen you can complete a dungeon within 10 mins with a random group instead of wasting 10 mins finding a perfect group- Elitism died

It is very clear from lfg, ppl are not interested in raiding and only a niche audience does. Else we would have so many groups 100s and 1000's non sellers everyday doing it

[TexZero.7910]

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

None of the story of raids was core to any part of LS3. You literally had every possible piece given to you during it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The

only issue I have with Raids is one thing

.

Don't lock part of the story behind it.

:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

None of the story of raids was core to any part of LS3. You literally had every possible piece given to you during it.

Lazarus is core to LW3.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:The elitism in this game far exceeds other games like wow (probably because the player base is smaller and there is less options for raiding groups.) And yet the raids in gw2 are trivial compared to some of the raid content in that game. So i feel like Anet should compromise on something as this community seems to have a very high unnecessary concentration of elitism.

I'm gonna reuse the 4 category thingy that was mentioned earlier.

Funnily, I believe that if indeed the elitism in gw2 exceeds the one in wow (I would still need proof of that, because as a regular raider myself, I don't see many people being "toxic" in raids. They simply tell you no if you don't have the experience and get upset if people lie about it) it's mostly due to the core game being very, very casual. So the playerbase is also very, very casual and also very demanding when it comes to accomodate every aspect of the game for them (anti dps meter threads, eater of souls nerf threads, clocktower threads)... so obviously, the last remaining bit of challenging content is constantly being blamed for ruining their experience, since that's one of the last things that hasn't been twisted for them (yet).

Is it the raiding community being too elitist, or is it the playerbase being too casual? The answer will vary depending which side you're on. The only thing I can say is just given the past few months, pretty much all the threads were about making the game easier, and not harder, and I see this thread as one hidden way to nerf raids.

There's a discord group apparently dedicated to raid trainings. I don't know its address, but I suggest people who are in the "wanabee" category to look with training raids if they can get some experience. And for the "whiner" category, sadly I have to say: This content isn't meant for you.

Incorrect, the content is easily within my means and easily doable in general. What isn't meant for me is the community specific to gw2 that does raids, and to that end, Anet's unwillingness to adapt any sort of fix or compromise to raid content that would circumnavigate or minimize said communities overly selective/elitest behavior.

Anet doesn't need to adapt, you do. People have told you how to construct non-elitist groups. I think the problem is you don't want to play with non-elitists, you want to force elitists to play with you. You want all the benefits of elitsm (fast clears, efficiency, no stress, no failure) but you don't meet that standard, so are kicked.

People have the right to construct their own groups in any way they want and you do not have the right to demand people play with you. Make your own groups, create a guild to keep in touch with players you like, soon you'll be choosing who you play with just like those evil elitists you dislike.

I easily meet the standards of an elite group, but i refuse to jump through the psychological hoops that are required to convince said people (the psychological threshold of convincing them specifically in gw2 is too high). This is why creating alternative raids that are easier or simply adding auto grouping which results in less group scrutiny is essential.

Instead we only have one type of raid and it goes one speed only and every group member is manually added in and scrutinized. If there were easier raids available or easier ways of getting into a group, I could join them with little to no effort, and my skill level would shine through, without me having to psychologically convince others before they allow me to display my skill (its sad that people think that playing the psychological convincing game to get people to invite you to a raid is part of the "raiding experience/content") .

Subsequently, I would get invited to the more elite groups based on my performance. This is what has happened for me in every other mmo I have played over the past 15 years, as they all usually offer alternative raid difficulties or auto grouping and I don't have to play psychological charades to convince people that I am a good player, which that is a given constant for me, regardless of what type of player you feel I might be.

Additionally, suggesting that I form a raid guild of my own proves my point. The threshold for getting into raids is way to high if I need to form an entire guild myself and recruit/scrutinize other players, simply to do simple raid content. The amount of effort in forming a guild in comparison to the rewards and difficulty of the raids themselves is egregious and suggesting that every player getting into raiding should be doing this is silly. The point of the thread is to make the barrier of getting into raiding easier, not harder.

So you want to force elitist groups to take you, even though you are too lazy to get the minimum requirements through training, because you are sure you are skilled enough (which you may or may not be).

Fine. But if we change the system for you, it will change for everyone, and that elitist group you have joined will ALSO be forced to take people with 0 experience and bad builds. Have fun having every single run of raids you do be filled with people wearing rare gear and running PTV with condi weapons.

You sure seem against running with the 'noobies' now as you put it, which would only take a few runs if you are as good as you say to get the LI. Dont know why you would want to have a system that puts you with them constantly.

Also you dont have to create an entire guild to do a non elitist raid. Just make a lfg.

[Rococo.8347]

Actually it is Anets fault to a certain extent - and the fact that I feel I need to somehow prove my MMO Raid knowledge to even be able to point that out on this thread says a lot about Elitism. Lets not forget Anet is on record as saying they have DELIBERATELY decided to keep Raids an elitist area of the game. lets also not forget that they didn't outright ban DPS metres - I used to raid without them - it IS possible.

I raided a fair amount in WoW I started in BC, though I was taken into Vanilla raids at that point too. I was at first a 'late season raider' in that once the neckbeards had fought their way through and could do it in their sleep ( then bring their less experienced Guildies through) and/or the gear level had gone up for the next raid, they became easier - this was the proto 'easier level raiding' that WoW introduced later.

And it worked, now ive heard WoW has maybe gone too far the other way but the simple mater is, gear level progression automatically makes previous Raids easier as time goes on, and therefore available to the dirty casuals like me - GW2 players are never given this opportunity - ide rather not have gear progression but some sort of model needs to be created that allows people like me who are too old now to commit to bleeding edge raiding to still experience all PVE content - apparently the Raids are really good in GW2, interesting mechanics, look great etc but at the moment unless Anet climbs down off its high horse and looks for a scaled down experience - in the absence of content being made easier through gear progression, then resources are going into a little played game mode - I can go into WvW knowing next to nothing, the same with PVP - Raiding is not democratised like that and it should be.

[TexZero.7910]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The

only issue I have with Raids is one thing

.

Don't lock part of the story behind it.

:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

None of the story of raids was core to any part of LS3. You literally had every possible piece given to you during it.

Lazarus is core to LW3.

Yes, he was which is why he was a part of LS3 and had absolutely nothing to do with the raid story.

We as players had nothing to do with the Lazarus storyline until LS3. Everything before that was a side story about saving missing operatives who had been taken hostage by the white mantle.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The only issue I have with Raids is one thing. Don't lock part of the story behind it. :s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

The developers went to great length to not make the Raid story an integral part of the overall story. In fact the NPCs you meet inside the Raid act as if you've never seen them before if you've never been inside the Raid. If you play the episodes without ever touching the Raid, you don't miss anything so there is hardly any problem. There is zero reason to believe that they won't do the same with the next Wing. After all Raids are side stories

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The

only issue I have with Raids is one thing

.

Don't lock part of the story behind it.

:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

None of the story of raids was core to any part of LS3. You literally had every possible piece given to you during it.

Lazarus is core to LW3.

Yes, he was which is why he was a part of LS3 and had absolutely nothing to do with the raid story.

We as players had nothing to do with the Lazarus storyline until LS3. Everything before that was a side story about saving missing operatives who had been taken hostage by the white mantle.

No. Lazarus and mursaat story was heavily teased in raid and it tied with LW3. This is not side story, this is main story. The fact that Lazarus appeared in Out of the Shadows made no sense unless you knew from raid that White Mantle is already working on finding a way to resurrect him.

[TexZero.7910]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said::s :s The

only issue I have with Raids is one thing

.

Don't lock part of the story behind it.

:s :s Rewards yes by all means, but the story is the core content. Maybe add a story mode, with no rewards for those of us that really want to get the full story. Those of us who mentally can't do raids (mine is over stimulation, cant use voip) this would help us not feel like we are missing a core part of the story.

None of the story of raids was core to any part of LS3. You literally had every possible piece given to you during it.

Lazarus is core to LW3.

Yes, he was which is why he was a part of LS3 and had absolutely nothing to do with the raid story.

We as players had nothing to do with the Lazarus storyline until LS3. Everything before that was a side story about saving missing operatives who had been taken hostage by the white mantle.

No. Lazarus and mursaat story was heavily teased in raid and it tied with LW3. This is not side story, this is main story. The fact that Lazarus appeared in Out of the Shadows made no sense unless you knew from raid that White Mantle is already working on finding a way to resurrect him.

You do realize that LS3 Chapter 1 had you talk to squad leader bennet right ? Who told you of his rescue, and had dialogue change dependant on your "raid state".

That's because guess what, it was an optional side story that had no bearing on whether you did it or not. Every ounce of what you needed to know was told via LS3. Sorry you don't particularly like the approach and feel robbed for whatever misaligned reason but at no point did you need to RAID to understand or even complete LS3.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:No. Lazarus and mursaat story was heavily teased in raid and it tied with LW3. This is not side story, this is main story. The fact that Lazarus appeared in Out of the Shadows made no sense unless you knew from raid that White Mantle is already working on finding a way to resurrect him.

Not really. In fact it doesn't make sense for Lazarus to appear in Out of the Shadows after you played the Raid. I mean you stop the White Mantle in the Raid and then pop a Lazarus appears. Playing the Raid makes the whole thing make less sense, than not playing it. Until we got the full story in Head of the Snake.The only kind-of main plot thing they did with Raids is telling us the White Mantle are back. And that's it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:No. Lazarus and mursaat story was heavily teased in raid and it tied with LW3. This is not side story, this is main story. The fact that Lazarus appeared in Out of the Shadows made no sense unless you knew from raid that White Mantle is already working on finding a way to resurrect him.

Not really. In fact it doesn't make sense for Lazarus to appear in Out of the Shadows after you played the Raid. I mean you stop the White Mantle in the Raid and then pop a Lazarus appears. Playing the Raid makes the whole thing make less sense, than not playing it. Until we got the full story in Head of the Snake.The only kind-of main plot thing they did with Raids is telling us the White Mantle are back. And that's it.

I can't agree. Because we learn that they probably failed when we find his sarcophagus but after the explosion we can conclude that that's what they finally did to resurrect him.

Without raid, when Lazarus appears it happens out of nowhere.

Bastion of the Penitent, on the other hand, was totally seperate, even though it included Eye of Janthir. Still, I don't like the fact they decided to solve one of biggest GW1 mysteries in raid, that's an example of seperate story.

[TexZero.7910]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Kheldorn.5123 said:No. Lazarus and mursaat story was heavily teased in raid and it tied with LW3. This is not side story, this is main story. The fact that Lazarus appeared in Out of the Shadows made no sense unless you knew from raid that White Mantle is already working on finding a way to resurrect him.

Not really. In fact it doesn't make sense for Lazarus to appear in Out of the Shadows after you played the Raid. I mean you stop the White Mantle in the Raid and then pop a Lazarus appears. Playing the Raid makes the whole thing make less sense, than not playing it. Until we got the full story in Head of the Snake.The only kind-of main plot thing they did with Raids is telling us the White Mantle are back. And that's it.

I can't agree. Because we learn that they probably failed when we find his sarcophagus but after the explosion we can conclude that that's what they finally did to resurrect him.

Without raid, when Lazarus appears it happens out of nowhere.

Bastion of the Penitent, on the other hand, was totally seperate, even though it included Eye of Janthir. Still, I don't like the fact they decided to solve one of biggest GW1 mysteries in raid, that's an example of seperate story.

No they didn't resurrect him there. He never needed to be resurrected in the first place. He went into hiding in Gw1 to preserver his energy this is why you don't find the real lazarous until S3 EP8 and only after you've assembled all the requisite artifacts to unlock the magic that's keeping him bound away and hidden.

What we found in the raid was nothing more than a half-baked ritual to transfer large amounts of magic into a vessel, which turned out to be mostly humans who couldn't hold all that magic.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:Without raid, when Lazarus appears it happens out of nowhere.

After playing the Raid it appears it happens out of nowhere. Without playing the Raid it's a magical explosion that the White Mantle caused to power up something that until the end our characters say it was for Caudecus:

: Before we find him; Caudecus may have been the someone who consumed the Bloodstone's magic.: If it's true, he may be a little stronger than we all remember.

Also, our characters that played in the Raid knew that Lazarus was in the chamber and escaped.

:We caused an unstable reaction when we destroyed the bloostone shards.: Did Lazarus escape? Or was he killed in the process? What happened here?

Yet, not only never made the connection after explosion but didn't bother to tell anyone that they found Lazarus (or that the White Mantle are more active now)Canach says in Out of the Shadows:

Canach: There's been a flare-up of White Mantle activity in northern Maguuma, and intel points to him possibly heading there.

and our characters, after being in northern Maguuma and fighting inside a Mursaat stronghold, say nothing about it, not even a simple remark about it.The Lazarus reveal is lessened if you've played the Raid, it's not better, and then you read the White Mantle journals that make the story even worse.