when does the greed stop?

[Gravitron.7982]

2 minutes ago, TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

The core game went F2P some years ago. Originally it wasn't. They did this so people could try out the game for free. It's not supposed to be the game with all features and options. It's more of an incentive. Some people are more inclined to make a purchase once they've had a chance to try out the merchandise. Like taking a car for a test drive, trying on a pair of jeans or listening an to album in a music store. Once you pay for the game (which now happens to be an expansion, whereas before you'd buy the core game) you get full access to everything. Because, as stated before, ANet is not a charity organization. And giving people the option to try out your game for free is not P2W. It might sound like it the way you describe it, but that is a misrepresentation of the facts.

P2W means paying money to give you an advantage over players you can't get by not paying money. Buying a max level boost in GW2 is not pay to win because you can get to max level without paying as well, and it doesn't even take that long. Every single item in the gemstore does not give you any advantage over people who don't buy from the gemstore. Aesthetics aren't P2W. QoL items aren't P2W. The only way to argue GW2 is P2W is by stretching the defintion of the term to such a degree that the argument for P2W is easily dismantled. Or to misrepresent the facts, like you did.

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

[Bladestrom.6425]

5 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

What is pretty clear is you are confusing the time it takes to balance new specs and expansions with old specs with 'pay to win'  and are trying to align chat in this thread with your own evident disgruntlement re latest specs.

And for the record I only play a spec in pvp that is not meta and does not contain anything from the latest expansion and do perfectly well against latest specs.  In saying that, if you want a expansion, why don't you just buy it and support the game, you not paying a sub....

Edited May 26, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Gravitron.7982]

15 minutes ago, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

What is pretty clear is you are confusing the time it takes to balance new specs and expansions with old specs with 'pay to win'  and are trying to align chat in this thread with your own evident disgruntlement re latest specs.

And for the record I only play a spec in pvp that is not meta and does not contain anything from the latest expansion and do perfectly well against latest specs.  In saying that, if you want a expansion, why don't you just buy it and support the game, you not paying a sub....

Its your choice to either play at the same power level as other players, or play with an inherent disadvantage. You're free to play how you want! But Core specs are empirically interior to eSpecs when you compare their power levels. 

F2P players are empirically at a power level disadvantage that cannot be overcome without opening their wallet. 

[costepj.5120]

So your logic is that F2P players are disadvantaged and therefore GW2 is Pay to Win?

Easy fix, prevent anyone playing the game until they buy an expansion. No F2P means no Pay to Win right?

With your clear thinking, you should be a shoo-in for the Republican Party Presidential nomination next year. Maybe you can adopt a slogan like Make GW2 Great Again?

Edited May 26, 2023 by costepj.5120

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

1 hour ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

It's pretty clear cut you don't understand what you're talking about or what you're reading, yes. Free players are playing a preliminary version of the game, since they haven't actually purchased the product yet. The sheer sense of entitlement of demanding the full scope of the game without paying a dime. The only positive I can get out of this is you clearly don't worship at the altar of capitalism, which is a virtue. Other than that, you want an apple to be an orange but that will never happen.

[Ashen.2907]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:13 PM, Gravitron.7982 said:

I can buy gems with real money, exchange it for gold, then buy a full set of exotic gear with runes and sigils, etc. I can also buy a level 80 boost, which means if I open my wallet I can have an almost maxed out toon within minutes

Which is not pay to win.

[Bladestrom.6425]

13 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Its your choice to either play at the same power level as other players, or play with an inherent disadvantage. You're free to play how you want! But Core specs are empirically interior to eSpecs when you compare their power levels. 

F2P players are empirically at a power level disadvantage that cannot be overcome without opening their wallet. 

 As players we want new specs with each expansion, new stuff is fun. Clearly it becomes almost exponentially more difficult to balance when each Expansion lands so it takes time.  Clearly many people do in fact play non meta builds happily.  Clearly Anet should get paid for expansions and maintenance somehow, noting ofc some other games out there charge you for both a sub and expansions.!

What do you actually want to happen?

option 1)  Anet charges a sub, you pay £120 a year and have access to your meta builds for free.

option 2) You get base game for free and everything that goes with it.  You pay the equivalent of < 50 pence a week to buy an expansion.  You can happily play the game without meta as proven by many many people.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

If you want a f2p game, look somewhere else, it should be rather clear for quite some time. I even wrote that currently core is basically a very generous demo of the game, but somehow you were still unhappy with that answer while now... you're ""proving"" what was already said 2 pages ago? 🤔

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

It sounds like it, because the way I described it is reality. I described it exactly how it is in real life. 

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

It's pretty clear cut I think. 

OK ... and that's not a problem because free players don't support the business financially and paid ones do. 

Do you even understand how a business works? LIke, the idea that businesses provide goods and services for and exchange of money? Somehow that doesn't apply here, or it's evil in some way because ... entitled?

But hey, there is an easy fix to that ... F2P players can ... pay for the game, then they can 'win' like everyone else who has the advantage of getting value from the business exchange. This discussion is borderline absurd at this point. There isn't anything unreasonable about being disadvantaged because of not paying for the game. That's just some sort of young generational ideology not matching reality of how things actually work. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Holmindeboks.3490]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... and that's not a problem because free players don't support the business financially and paid ones do. 

Do you even understand how a business works? LIke, the idea that businesses provide goods and services for and exchange of money? Somehow that doesn't apply here, or it's evil in some way because ... entitled?

But hey, there is an easy fix to that ... F2P players can ... pay for the game, then they can 'win' like everyone else who has the advantage of getting value from the business exchange. This discussion is borderline absurd at this point. There isn't anything unreasonable about being disadvantaged because of not paying for the game. That's just some sort of young generational ideology not matching reality of how things actually work. 

You said thats some sort of young generation ideology…. So if you are not young you know how it was 20 years ago. You bought a new full game without microtransactions and everyone had the same. There was skill the only advantage ppl could have. Sometimes you got a patch with free stuff. Sometimes it was a paid dlc. But games these days want more and more. 
Let take the sims as example. You get a dlc for 20 euro and has 30 objects in it. Guildwars 2 sell all objectives separately for half the price. 
 

and there should be a BALANCE between business and fun. Not only get fun if you pay more and more. Not when you buy the base game the fun stops and you can grind 24/7 to even able to buy soemthing. 

[Ashen.2907]

12 minutes ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

Not only get fun if you pay more and more.

Luckily this is not the case.

[Swagger.1459]

11 minutes ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

You said thats some sort of young generation ideology…. So if you are not young you know how it was 20 years ago. You bought a new full game without microtransactions and everyone had the same. There was skill the only advantage ppl could have. Sometimes you got a patch with free stuff. Sometimes it was a paid dlc. But games these days want more and more. 
Let take the sims as example. You get a dlc for 20 euro and has 30 objects in it. Guildwars 2 sell all objectives separately for half the price. 
 

and there should be a BALANCE between business and fun. Not only get fun if you pay more and more. Not when you buy the base game the fun stops and you can grind 24/7 to even able to buy soemthing. 

 

Let me get this straight… 

Wow monthly fee + cost of expansions + additional level caps per expansion that make gear obsolete + never ending gear grind = not greedy. 

 

GW2 no monthly fee + cost of expansions + no additional level caps + max level gear not made obsolete + ability to convert game gold into gems and buy anything off the gemstore for FREE = greedy

?

 

[costepj.5120]

1 hour ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

But games these days want more and more. 

Over the last ten years I've spent a total of about £120 on the GW2 base game and expansions. I've also had all the living world stories for free and been able to obtain every QoL item I wanted from the gem store by exchanging gold I earned in game.
I've clocked up 17,000 hours in game in that time; is there any other entertainment medium that can match that value for money (0.7p per hour) ?

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

You said thats some sort of young generation ideology…. So if you are not young you know how it was 20 years ago. You bought a new full game without microtransactions and everyone had the same. There was skill the only advantage ppl could have. Sometimes you got a patch with free stuff. Sometimes it was a paid dlc. But games these days want more and more. 
Let take the sims as example. You get a dlc for 20 euro and has 30 objects in it. Guildwars 2 sell all objectives separately for half the price. 

This is false ... even 20 years ago, people didn't have it "the same" because people still had to invest the time in a game to grind out things they wanted. So no, saying skill was the only advantage people could have is just wrong. There was STILL advantage due to gear differences. 

5 hours ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

and there should be a BALANCE between business and fun. Not only get fun if you pay more and more. Not when you buy the base game the fun stops and you can grind 24/7 to even able to buy soemthing. 

And that's your problem here. What the 'balance' is between business and fun ... is subjective and Anet can't make the game cater to your individual ideas of what is balanced. You make it sound like all the sudden, some kind of grinding to get things you want is some new MMO concept or unique to GW2. It's not. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

4 hours ago, Holmindeboks.3490 said:

20 years ago. You bought a new full game

So, let Play4Free players buy the game and then there will be no Pay2Win just like 20 years ago, no? 

[Holmindeboks.3490]

On 5/27/2023 at 2:42 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

 

Let me get this straight… 

Wow monthly fee + cost of expansions + additional level caps per expansion that make gear obsolete + never ending gear grind = not greedy. 

 

GW2 no monthly fee + cost of expansions + no additional level caps + max level gear not made obsolete + ability to convert game gold into gems and buy anything off the gemstore for FREE = greedy

?

 

Yes true, i have to start expecting less. Maybe if i start a new character and experience where the fun started. Just by lvling without tomes. I mean i liked the most untill cantha. Hot was good, pof was a bit worse (but it gave mounts) 

my wow sub is ending in 9 days and i havent looted a single mount (i only did the mount runs for the mounts i want) so i will probably not buying another 60 days playtime. Because its still rng. So it made no difference in rewards. And i came back to wow after 7 years and graphics are less nice because i know better. Sure a lot of skins drop. then maybe i have to take it slow and buy a skin i want (in guildwars 2) 
 

Ofc making gold is easy, but often thats only to buy upgrades. Something thats not needed in guildwars 2. I remember doing wow’s current expansion in cataclysm on warrior. EIGHT (8) weeks a raid boss without being rewarded. Thats awesome about guildwars 2. When you crafted max lvl gear you never have to upgrade (besides infusions and sometimes other runes or sigils) sure guildwars 2 has its better things, but because of EoD i started thinking bad about the game while it also has nice things. 
 

i was planning to buy diablo 4 for awesome fights and kill bosses. Till i realised that i can do this already in guildwars 2. So i wont buy diablo 4. Also its all rng. And i am a casual player. And someone said that the endgame is tier3 and higher. So that not for me. 

to be continued

[Gravitron.7982]

On 5/27/2023 at 5:42 AM, Swagger.1459 said:

 

Let me get this straight… 

Wow monthly fee + cost of expansions + additional level caps per expansion that make gear obsolete + never ending gear grind = not greedy. 

 

GW2 no monthly fee + cost of expansions + no additional level caps + max level gear not made obsolete + ability to convert game gold into gems and buy anything off the gemstore for FREE = greedy

?

 

But converting gold to gems is not free.....Anet doesn't generate the gems, they take gems that other players already paid money for. It's just like how Star Trek Online handles their cash shop currency: Players can buy zen (cash shop currency) and exchange it for dilithium (in game currency), and vice verse. But if no players are buying zen, but all the F2P players have dilithium banked to exchange for Zen, guess what happens? The F2P players sit on their dilithium for weeks and weeks until more zen becomes available... STO experiences ZEN shortages pretty often these days, and eventually GW2 will experience Gem shortages because it works the same way. 

Point is, the gems aren't "free", someone already paid Anet for them. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Gravitron.7982

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

But converting gold to gems is not free.....Anet doesn't generate the gems, they take gems that other players already paid money for. It's just like how Star Trek Online handles their cash shop currency: Players can buy zen (cash shop currency) and exchange it for dilithium (in game currency), and vice verse. But if no players are buying zen, but all the F2P players have dilithium banked to exchange for Zen, guess what happens? The F2P players sit on their dilithium for weeks and weeks until more zen becomes available... STO experiences ZEN shortages pretty often these days, and eventually GW2 will experience Gem shortages because it works the same way. 

Point is, the gems aren't "free", someone already paid Anet for them. 

And that is a problem how?

[Ashantara.8731]

On 5/26/2023 at 5:51 PM, Gravitron.7982 said:

Free Players = lower power level
Paid players = higher power level

What? I can get paid for playing this  game?!? 😲 I wish someone had told me years ago! 😅

[Gravitron.7982]

39 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

What? I can get paid for playing this  game?!? 😲 I wish someone had told me years ago! 😅

ahaha wouldn't that be nice right? Obviously it means players who paid money vs players who have not paid anything other than their time. 

[Gravitron.7982]

46 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

And that is a problem how?

I couldn't tell you whether it's a problem, or not a problem. My point was that gems aren't "free" in the same way that universal healthcare isn't "free". Someone already fronted the bill.

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

I couldn't tell you whether it's a problem, or not a problem. My point was that gems aren't "free" in the same way that universal healthcare isn't "free". Someone already fronted the bill.

So if I buy something and give it to you, it's not free for you because I bought it? 🤔

[Gravitron.7982]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So if I buy something and give it to you, it's not free for you because I bought it? 🤔

If the store you bought it from gave it to me, I'd say it's free. 

[Schimmi.6872]

2 hours ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

But converting gold to gems is not free.....Anet doesn't generate the gems, they take gems that other players already paid money for. It's just like how Star Trek Online handles their cash shop currency: Players can buy zen (cash shop currency) and exchange it for dilithium (in game currency), and vice verse. But if no players are buying zen, but all the F2P players have dilithium banked to exchange for Zen, guess what happens? The F2P players sit on their dilithium for weeks and weeks until more zen becomes available... STO experiences ZEN shortages pretty often these days, and eventually GW2 will experience Gem shortages because it works the same way. 

Point is, the gems aren't "free", someone already paid Anet for them. 

The F2P-players would sit on their gold in gw2 anyway, as they can't use the gold to gem-exchange, only gem to gold is available. The rest should be solved by supply and demand, if gems get more expensive, more people are likely to sell gems. If you look at the rates of the last years, the whole system looks pretty stable.

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Schimmi.6872 said:

The F2P-players would sit on their gold in gw2 anyway, as they can't use the gold to gem-exchange, only gem to gold is available. The rest should be solved by supply and demand, if gems get more expensive, more people are likely to sell gems. If you look at the rates of the last years, the whole system looks pretty stable.

Yes, for the time being it certainly appears that way.