mirage dead on patch - second dodge back

[Bazsi.2734]

6 hours ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

How much stability does Mirage have? And, to take it one step further, how much stability does it have compared to classes it's supposed to counter with CC timing?

Mantra_of_Concentration and Bountiful_Disillusionment, which is considerably less than pretty much any other class - except for thief of course. But just as thief, mesmer also has other ways to survive. Mirage and especially virtuoso had massive additions on top of these core tools which resulted the PvP experience for mesmer being an incredibly dumb invulnerability/block/dodge-spam. Culling dumb defenses on a class that is supposed to be about outplaying the enemy with tricks is a good direction to go to.
I do think the class(maybe except for core) will be in a somewhat weak spot after the patch, but this change in itself (removing the ability to dodge while CC-d, and giving the second dodge back) is good. We'll see how strong the class will be in general, and complain about buffs/nerfs accordingly. There is so much stuff changing that I don't feel like REEE-ing 3 weeks in advance when literally nobody knows how the game will look like once the patch hits.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[SevlisBavles.3059]

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Mantra_of_Concentration and Bountiful_Disillusionment, which is considerably less than pretty much any other class - except for thief of course. But just as thief, mesmer also has other ways to survive. Mirage and especially virtuoso had massive additions on top of these core tools which resulted the PvP experience for mesmer being an incredibly dumb invulnerability/block/dodge-spam. Culling dumb defenses on a class that is supposed to be about outplaying the enemy with tricks is a good direction to go to.
I do think the class(maybe except for core) will be in a somewhat weak spot after the patch, but this change in itself (removing the ability to dodge while CC-d, and giving the second dodge back) is good. We'll see how strong the class will be in general, and complain about buffs/nerfs accordingly. There is so much stuff changing that I don't feel like REEE-ing 3 weeks in advance when literally nobody knows how the game will look like once the patch hits.

You didn't answer my second question. And now answer this: How far up or down the list of priority of utility skills is Mantra of Concentration for Mirage and would the sacrifice of anything above it for most builds be worth it? And, how often do you see Chaos in Mirage builds in high level play and why would you say the answer is "Almost Never"?

Edited June 11, 2023 by SevlisBavles.3059

[Damocles.4908]

has the virtuoso had any impact from the update? do we still get the long blocks and invulnerability duration?

[semak.7481]

33 minutes ago, Damocles.4908 said:

has the virtuoso had any impact from the update? do we still get the long blocks and invulnerability duration?

Why dont you read the patchnotes, its not like they are hiding it and only few knows.

But they will nuke virtuoso, despite it not being meta or some kind of menece in ranked that u see stacked. 

Everyone wanted it to be toned down but also logically expected for QoL for bladesongs, damage buffs, less reliance for the entire spec on top traits to function, 🤡M 🤡 was too busy coming up with what he could buff on ele and which skills on ele they should rework

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 6/10/2023 at 1:22 PM, semak.7481 said:

Imaging having to cast gs ambush to do the same damage as an autoattack where is vindi spams dodges instantly with 4-5k damage slapped on it. Absolute clowns

Ok vindi dodge does less damage than split surge and split surge is 1200 range. Common bro...

[Bazsi.2734]

45 minutes ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

You didn't answer my second question.

I have a really good idea! Actually read the comment you are reacting to before typing up a response:

1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

 which is considerably less than pretty much any other class - except for thief of course.

Btw when it comes to playing mesmer: I always made it work without stability. It never occured to me that mesmer would need it.

59 minutes ago, SevlisBavles.3059 said:

And now answer this: How far up or down the list of priority of utility skills is Mantra of Concetration for Mirage and would the sacrifice of anything above it for most builds be worth it? And, how often do you see Chaos in Mirage builds in high level play and why would you say the answer is "Almost Never"?

Mantra would be low in prio, as it's not needed. Also since a-net repeatedly cut the builds performance in half, the quality of sPvP increased about as much as the popularity of chaos mirage decreased. Which then was promptly ruined by EoD specs, but this is not a thread about them.
Mirage needs a rework before it can be meta again. Old-school chaos mirage was an absolute kitten, a testament to how terrible PoF class design is: who even thought about centering an e-spec around the "attack while invulnerable" concept? This change we are debating(or at least seem to, all you do is trying to lead me with passive agressive questions) is a very good first step moving away from the old ways. 

[viquing.8254]

9 hours ago, Bunbury.8472 said:

uhhh no one else can dodge after being cc’d they just dodge before it hits them. maybe you can learn to do this too?

Nop they (other classes.) don't dodge, they use either stab/aegis or breakstunt/teleport or evade/blocks packages on weapons skills, like every meta builds does for ages.

Mean which meta classes can't evade cc/burst ? Even necro can do it currently.

One day it will be good if people get that when mirage burn evade defensivly, they can't use it offensivly. Which is even more true because condi clone auto passive when evading isn't a thing anymore.

3 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

But just as thief, mesmer also has other ways to survive.

[...]incredibly dumb invulnerability/block/dodge-spam. Culling dumb defenses on a class that is supposed to be about outplaying the enemy with tricks is a good direction to go to.

Putting appart it's less mobile and has higher(unreliable.) burst setup, yeah.

5 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

PoF release monstrosity.

Are you talking about classes played in EU top 50  ? If so, it didn't concern mirage.

Edited June 11, 2023 by viquing.8254

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:27 PM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Mantra_of_Concentration and Bountiful_Disillusionment, which is considerably less than pretty much any other class - except for thief of course. But just as thief, mesmer also has other ways to survive. Mirage and especially virtuoso had massive additions on top of these core tools which resulted the PvP experience for mesmer being an incredibly dumb invulnerability/block/dodge-spam. Culling dumb defenses on a class that is supposed to be about outplaying the enemy with tricks is a good direction to go to.
I do think the class(maybe except for core) will be in a somewhat weak spot after the patch, but this change in itself (removing the ability to dodge while CC-d, and giving the second dodge back) is good. We'll see how strong the class will be in general, and complain about buffs/nerfs accordingly. There is so much stuff changing that I don't feel like REEE-ing 3 weeks in advance when literally nobody knows how the game will look like once the patch hits.

im sure core mesmer after getting another 15 nerfs is going to go from kitten tier to good tier.
im also very sure 🤡M🤡 will make follow up changes that will make the class viable in a timely manner 😝

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:48 PM, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Ok vindi dodge does less damage than split surge and split surge is 1200 range. Common bro...

DPS oriented dodge from vindicator does about 2x the damage of split surge. 
if we are comparing DPS dodge from mesmer its only fair we comapre it with dps dodge from vindicator.

[Leonidrex.5649]

I always found the argument of " mirage can dodge when stunned HURR DURR " funny.
On one hand its correct, as dodging while cc is kittening stupid, on another hand, every single meta build is either so loaded with stability or has AT LEAST 2 stun-break's.
As someone that played ranger I can easily slot 3 different ways to remove stuns, stability and all of them have such low cd, that during 1v1 I can eat every stun and you run out of cc before I run out of ways to remove them, yet mirage is the problem somehow lol.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:10 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I always found the argument of " mirage can dodge when stunned HURR DURR " funny.
On one hand its correct, as dodging while cc is kittening stupid, on another hand, every single meta build is either so loaded with stability or has AT LEAST 2 stun-break's.
As someone that played ranger I can easily slot 3 different ways to remove stuns, stability and all of them have such low cd, that during 1v1 I can eat every stun and you run out of cc before I run out of ways to remove them, yet mirage is the problem somehow lol.

The thing is, you sometimes nerf something that's not the most OP. Like flamethrower engi, minion mancer necro or turret spam engi. Some things are just braindead, an absolute nightmare to play against, or just terrible design which they plan on reworking "sOoN", so they shelve it to save players from an extra month or two of suffering. Mirage having 2 dodges and dodging while stunned(remember, this used to be a full 1 second dodge years after the release) was able to cover literally every incoming burst without even having to use a stunbreak. OP or not, it's bad game design.
Also I'm all for gutting ranger stunbreaks. Maybe ranger will become really opressive next patch(I have to put that "maybe" in there for legal reasons), and we get an opportunity to look at those 20-30 second cooldown stunbreaks that make them survive anything.
But you need a reason to nerf reasonably designed things, and ranger currently is not overperforming. Wait 2 more weeks and we'll see.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Bazsi.2734

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/13/2023 at 12:10 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I always found the argument of " mirage can dodge when stunned HURR DURR " funny.
On one hand its correct, as dodging while cc is kittening stupid, on another hand, every single meta build is either so loaded with stability or has AT LEAST 2 stun-break's.
As someone that played ranger I can easily slot 3 different ways to remove stuns, stability and all of them have such low cd, that during 1v1 I can eat every stun and you run out of cc before I run out of ways to remove them, yet mirage is the problem somehow lol.

The amount of copium people inhale when rationalizing mirage one dodge is insane. Your example is so spot on. Rangers can get away with so much more degen BS it's absurd, but Mirage is the problem always! 🤣

Druids have a build where they can constantly spam stealth, condi, and CC with traps, they still have their pet, they can sustain, they still get 1500 range with LB, and if the pressure gets too tough they can just run away and kite near infinitely.

That is just one of many degen ranger builds, but again, Mirage is the problem! 🤣

 

I want everyone to look at this vid and tell me which build is more degen. Please. Even if I was condi mirage, I think it's pretty clear but hey, I play mirage so maybe I just don't know how OP my one dodge truly is!!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

9 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

The amount of copium people inhale when rationalizing mirage one dodge is insane. Your example is so spot on. Rangers can get away with so much more degen BS it's absurd, but Mirage is the problem always! 🤣

Druids have a build where they can constantly spam stealth, condi, and CC with traps, they still have their pet, they can sustain, they still get 1500 range with LB, and if the pressure gets too tough they can just run away and kite near infinitely.

That is just one of many degen ranger builds, but again, Mirage is the problem! 🤣

 

I want everyone to look at this vid and tell me which build is more degen. Please. Even if I was condi mirage, I think it's pretty clear but hey, I play mirage so maybe I just don't know how OP my one dodge truly is!!

BIND YOUR SHATTERS

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/16/2023 at 7:36 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

BIND YOUR SHATTERS

Never! I refuse! 🤣

Okay seriously at first it was because that keybind was on my mouse side button, but it broke, and then I got used to clicking the f3 shatter and now I'm in too deep. I can't go back. My f1 is bound to the ` key tho!!

Edited June 16, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Morwath.9817]

13 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

 but Mirage is the problem always! 🤣

Winning while mouse clicking!

[JazzXman.7018]

what triggers me about the change to mc is, that anet said it is impossible to split mc like that. its either instant and can do all stuff instant skills can or it is not instant and cant do anything (means also not cover casting) anymore. in the end it turned out it was possible and just not done due to a fear to make pve player angry even tho the nerf is barely relevant in pve. im mad about the lie, about the missing backbones of anet to do the right change in the first place instead this horrible one dodge change in pvp/wvw for years but i also wonder why mirage wasnt designed with that split mc right from the start when it is no problem from a programming point of view... ? 

also what is this focus nerf? bad random change from a pvp pov, just as the buffs to torch and pistol.

nerfing the mightstacks on gs ambush instead nerfing the dmg is the absolute wrong direction ambushes should go. mirage needs utility based ambushes not direct dmg focused ambushes more than anything for a less spammy, more active and more tactical/skillful ambush gameplay and more challenging dodge management. so nerfing condi dmg on the condiweapons ambushes is ok but not without adding utility rewards. clone ambushes then should for all weapons have no dmg at all and only have the utilitypart of the mesmers ambush.

buffing IA, Desert Dist, Mirrors indirectly with a broken synergy to EM is also a big yikes.

Edited June 18, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[Myror.7521]

@Waffles.5632 the Problem with condi druid is not condi druid but trap Rune sir. Also a mes been able to dodge while been cced would end up in Mes been broken again. Pretty sure if they buff its dps slightly it will get a Comeback. (After get the Second dodge Version this patch will Bring). You know? Back then Mes was able to Spam Dodge that mutch that you where not able to hit the class at least once and not even while it was cced. The new Version will it let be more Invulnerability spamy but also will let enemys at least have room for punish you for mistakes. Its Just a big win for litterly you but also in Terms of Balance since counterplay ^^

Edited June 18, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:20 AM, Myror.7521 said:

@Waffles.5632 the Problem with condi druid is not condi druid but trap Rune sir. Also a mes been able to dodge while been cced would end up in Mes been broken again. Pretty sure if they buff its dps slightly it will get a Comeback. (After get the Second dodge Version this patch will Bring). You know? Back then Mes was able to Spam Dodge that mutch that you where not able to hit the class at least once and not even while it was cced. The new Version will it let be more Invulnerability spamy but also will let enemys at least have room for punish you for mistakes. Its Just a big win for litterly you but also in Terms of Balance since counterplay ^^

I agree with you on trapper rune 100%, it's degen on druid and on DH. No other rune gives such powerful effects that are spammable like that. Poor DH has been tied to trapper rune identity for years. I mean other rune's 6th bonus give like 2sec of resistance on 45sec CD. It makes no sense to me.

At this point though I'm kinda just done with gw2 pvp. There are far bigger issues for me than mirage dodge. Systemic issues I feel, both within Anet and the overall design of how PvP is currently. I haven't liked the direction it's been heading into for awhile now so even if they gave mirage 4 dodges, I still wouldn't play it seriously like I used to. It's much for more fun for me to just play Vindi in PvE atm, and then I bounce between that and other games.

It would take some serious effort from anet, and a new pvp map/mode/something big to get me to consider putting anymore time into this game mode unfortunately.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Waffles.5632]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:02 AM, JazzXman.7018 said:

what triggers me about the change to mc is, that anet said it is impossible to split mc like that. its either instant and can do all stuff instant skills can or it is not instant and cant do anything (means also not cover casting) anymore. in the end it turned out it was possible and just not done due to a fear to make pve player angry even tho the nerf is barely relevant in pve. im mad about the lie, about the missing backbones of anet to do the right change in the first place instead this horrible one dodge change in pvp/wvw for years but i also wonder why mirage wasnt designed with that split mc right from the start when it is no problem from a programming point of view... ? 

also what is this focus nerf? feels random

nerfing the mightstacks on gs ambush instead nerfing the dmg is the absolute wrong direction ambushes should go. mirage needs utility based ambushes not direct dmg focused ambushes more than anything for a less spammy, more active and more tactical/skillful ambush gameplay and more challenging dodge management.

buffing IA, Desert Dist, Mirrors indirectly with a broken synergy to EM is also a big yikes.

First, glad to see you're back Jazz!!! The true Mirage Master! 😃

Second, 100% agree, between the lies and the mistreatment, I just can't with Anet anymore.

From my limited understanding, their reasoning is they "discovered" or "developed" the split tech with Vindi, but it's anet so idk how truthful that statement actually is.

[JazzXman.7018]

22 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

First, glad to see you're back Jazz!!! The true Mirage Master! 😃

thanks for the flowers ❤️ im happy to see you too 🤗but im not rly back, playing here and there a bit also on power mirage but actually getting into valorant. they have 2 agents with a bit of mesmer feeling and high skill ceiling/ cap (what i actually care for the most when it comes to defining fun for me in a game, so gw2 is no option atm). but its weird being in the last 1% of player skill lvl atm luul. touching a shooter kind of game the first time in my life and sucki sucki hard. but its rly fun, since you also have meaningfull utilities and the game feels way more tactical than i would have expected from a shooter type of game. and it actually has players and competition.  can recommend trying it out (its free on top).

22 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Second, 100% agree, between the lies and the mistreatment, I just can't with Anet anymore.

From my limited understanding, their reasoning is they "discovered" or "developed" the split tech with Vindi, but it's anet so idk how truthful that statement actually is.

ah i see, they do the effort for rev (i guess bc its favored by the best players and they tend to win 🤣) in a blink of an eye after eod release compared to years of suffering on one dodge mirage. no bias to see here i guess.

Edited June 18, 2023 by JazzXman.7018

[Morwath.9817]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:26 PM, viquing.8254 said:

Are you talking about classes played in EU top 50  ? If so, it didn't concern mirage.

You're wrong. Misha played Mirage.

It was broken, just not against Scrouge & Firebrand combo. Scrouge was sending all condis back with Plague Signet or Firebrand was simply turning them into boons. 

[viquing.8254]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

You're wrong. Misha played Mirage.

It was broken, just not against Scrouge & Firebrand combo. Scrouge was sending all condis back with Plague Signet or Firebrand was simply turning them into boons. 

Nop, 1 over 50  isn't balanced.

Moreover if you look at old vids, even him has to give up points and go out of combat to resustain versus the amount of 3 on 1 skills from other classes (hello unblocable damage on evade and long hard CC with 5k+ damage packaed in.).

[iminxi.8514]

On 6/13/2023 at 6:02 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

im sure core mesmer after getting another 15 nerfs is going to go from kitten tier to good tier.
im also very sure 🤡M🤡 will make follow up changes that will make the class viable in a timely manner 😝

Genuine question from a noob: in terms of class strength is core mesmer considered weak? I see some players giving a true beating with it.

(Or does kitten mean good? Im not familiar with the term 😁)

Edited June 18, 2023 by demonbeetle.2387

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 hours ago, JazzXman.7018 said:

anet said it is impossible to split mc like that. its either instant and can do all stuff instant skills can or it is not instant and cant do anything (means also not cover casting) anymore. in the end it turned out it was possible

Well, they probably touched a significant amount of old systems to do that; it's impossible doesn't mean "it can never be done" , it mostly means "it requires way too much effort and we can't do that without accepting a significant risk of regressions and bugs on other unrelated things; also even if everything went well, it takes a lot of time we don't have right now". Right now they are updating a lot of old systems (DX11, rebalancing old bosses, IIRC they touched even collision data some months ago and that is a kittening nightmare let me tell you); I wouldn't go as far as to say they are going to work on dungeons, which are probably the most clusterkittened pieces of code in the game, but now they were given the time and resources to partially unspaghettify old code, and that's what they're doing.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Morwath.9817]

15 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

Nop, 1 over 50  isn't balanced.

Moreover if you look at old vids, even him has to give up points and go out of combat to resustain versus the amount of 3 on 1 skills from other classes (hello unblocable damage on evade and long hard CC with 5k+ damage packaed in.).

Mirage wasn't supposed to 1v1 to begin with. He should be forced to "give up points". Personaly I believe Mirage was supposed to be more mobile version of Mesmer due to leap on sword ambush. 

From my own personal experience, as someone playing FB after PoF launch, I'd rather have Misha on my team playing Mirage, rather than average plat Scrouge. So I don't think Mirage was actualy lacking much, just as I said somewhere else, some classes and/or specs require too much skill and effort to unlock their full potential vs average.

Anyway, thing I wanted to point out (in post you quoted orginaly) was if they would decide to return Mirage to what it was after PoF launch, it would wreck everything. I'd dare to say, that no single e-spec is as strong as PoF e-specs on their arrival. Mirage wasn't feeling super OP back then, because other e-specs released along side with him were completly broken, but they ain't anymore. It's all about context.