Let's address the elephant in the room

[Orcdoc.8901]

GW2 has a horrendous matchmaking system. It seems that in unranked there's no limitation who you can get matched with. The very entry mode of PvP, the mode where you are supposed to be able to test builds and where people would start their PvP journey is a complete kitten show. You have everything from Bronze to Legends and the experience is disheartening to say the least. There's 0 opportunity to even pick up basics with a disco show around you.

In ranked it's barely any better. Anything from 1 division higher or lower is possible and around Gold/Platinum these are HUGE skill gaps.

There's no point in talking about class balance when the very fundamentals of any competitive game i.e. a proper matchmaking aren't even present in GW2.

 

[Guirssane.7082]

The population is too tiny to get a good matchmaking. The algorithm is no different from any competitive game.

Its either you wait 10 mins for a balanced game or 3 mins with less balanced game. Either way, there is no magic solution for gw2 pvp.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Orcdoc.8901 said:

GW2 has a horrendous matchmaking system. It seems that in unranked there's no limitation who you can get matched with.

There actually is a rating for your unranked play as well. See the wiki page for the sPvP algorithm.

14 minutes ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

The population is too tiny to get a good matchmaking. The algorithm is no different from any competitive game.

This is pretty much the explanation. The matchmaker simply doesn't have enough population to work with, so the built-in compromise ends up putting players of vastly different ratings together rather than have no match at all.

[Orcdoc.8901]

I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer if it means playing with people on similar level and being able to actually learn something. As of right now, this kind of algorithm just worsens the problem as anyone who tries to pick-up GW2 PvP immediately gets more than enough incentives to quit. And from the various PvP games I've played I have yet to see a single game where a complete newcomer would ever be matched with Legends - ever. It doesn't happen for good reason and I couldn't grasp why it's even possible in GW2.

GW2 is not the only game facing the issue of queue times and small population, solutions are available but seeing that this kind of problem apparently remained for 2 years now suggests a general neglect.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

From my personal experience I must say the Matchmaker works like a charm. 

But without population... 

Like a Ferrari without fuel. 

[Morwath.9817]

2 hours ago, Orcdoc.8901 said:

I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer if it means playing with people on similar level and being able to actually learn something. 

You can always learn something. Record your gameplay and rewatch to find why you died etc.

[Fueki.4753]

3 hours ago, Orcdoc.8901 said:

I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer if it means playing with people on similar level

Not everyone is willing to do that. Also, that would only work decently at or near prime time. Not everyone plays at those times.

In my case, I usually have to wait 5 to 10 minutes for my daily match. Without the function that widens the rating gap, I'd possibly look at 30+ minutes for my queues, which I'd refuse to partake in. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks so.

Putting in the maximum rating gap will only lead to two things: sPvP leaking players even faster and queue times rising exponentially.

Due to the ever-growing amount of match manipulation and duo queue abuse, you wouldn't even get many matches with teams of comparable capabilities.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Morwath.9817]

17 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everyone is willing to do that. Also, that would only work decently at or near prime time. Not everyone plays at those times.

In my case, I usually have to wait 5 to 10 minutes for my daily match. Without the function that widens the rating gap, I'd possibly look at 30+ minutes for my queues, which I'd refuse to partake in. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks so.

Putting in the maximum rating gap will only lead to two things: sPvP leaking players even faster and queue times rising exponentially.

Due to the ever-growing amount of match manipulation and duo queue abuse, you wouldn't even get many matches with teams of comparable capabilities.

Players should have choice.

[felix.2386]

at this point is really because there's no one playing it now.

this month got diablo 4, ff16

then there's like space marine 2, AC, spiderman 2, starfield

this year is packed with good games.

like this month i literally get matched with people not knowing what to do like gold 1 at all at plat.

also because there's no point in playing when they are going to release a patch on the 27th, people will just wait for the patch to play.

Edited June 17, 2023 by felix.2386

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Ranked's matchmaking went to Hel the moment they readded the option to DuoQ against SoloQs and the low population is just a symptom. DuoQ ruins games, and matchmaking is always the first to go. The moment someone can willingly fight 2 against 1 is the very moment matchmaking dies, and no mistake.

[voltaicbore.8012]

9 hours ago, Orcdoc.8901 said:

I personally wouldn't mind waiting longer if it means playing with people on similar level and being able to actually learn something. As of right now, this kind of algorithm just worsens the problem as anyone who tries to pick-up GW2 PvP immediately gets more than enough incentives to quit. And from the various PvP games I've played I have yet to see a single game where a complete newcomer would ever be matched with Legends - ever. It doesn't happen for good reason and I couldn't grasp why it's even possible in GW2.

I do see the appeal of a "beginner queue" that ensures that accounts of similar experience and rating get matched with each other, but frankly that would probably only delay the "quit" moments instead of preventing some of them from happening. 

I mean, there's a whole slew of top-ranked players making brand new alt accounts just about every season, for match manipulation purposes. The game would have no way of differentiating between such smurfing accounts and legitimate real accounts, so I'm certain that pool of matches would get poisoned one way or another.

The only thing in your post I can fully, unreservedly agree with is

9 hours ago, Orcdoc.8901 said:

eeing that this kind of problem apparently remained for 2 years now suggests a general neglect.

The saddest part is, there is work on sPvP on fairly regular basis, but it rarely seems to move in the right direction and is consistently too small in scope to really make some of the more broadly needed changes. Unfortunately, I really don't see a shift away from this "never enough attention paid to pvp" scenario, as the game's overall health seems to be quite independent of the state of sPvP.

[Orcdoc.8901]

Quote

I do see the appeal of a "beginner queue" that ensures that accounts of similar experience and rating get matched with each other, but frankly that would probably only delay the "quit" moments instead of preventing some of them from happening. 

I mean, there's a whole slew of top-ranked players making brand new alt accounts just about every season, for match manipulation purposes. The game would have no way of differentiating between such smurfing accounts and legitimate real accounts, so I'm certain that pool of matches would get poisoned one way or another.

The only thing in your post I can fully, unreservedly agree with is

The smurf account problem is not unique to GW2 and was a plague especially in MOBAs but it was addressed. If you want to create a smurf acc for Dota for example on the same PC with the same IP, you will land exactly in the same bracket. So it takes VPN + uninstall and thorough registry clean to be able to smurf from the same PC. And if you ever launch your main acc from the same system you are back at your rating again. But even if you want to to circumvent all of that, then the flexibility of the system in the early stages of accounts or during ladder reset will take the unrealistic high win rates + personal performance and push the hidden/actual MMR at MUCH faster paces meaning only within 10-20 games the acc will land exactly where it belongs.

On the topic of queue times, a possible solutions would be to funnel PvP activity into certain time windows. For example there could be PvP events every day from 20-22 o'clock or every weekend from 10-22. Bonuses could be provided e.g. 15% more PvP track/league reward track received to provide incentives for players to do the majority of their PvP matches during these time frames.

These are just some possible solutions and there are plenty others available. My point is that it needs to be addressed in the near future otherwise it's a lose/lose for everybody and PvP will eventually die.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Orcdoc.8901

[Zenix.6198]

21 hours ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

The population is too tiny to get a good matchmaking. The algorithm is no different from any competitive game.

Its either you wait 10 mins for a balanced game or 3 mins with less balanced game. Either way, there is no magic solution for gw2 pvp.

kitten...I didnt come here to read based takes
 

but I get OPs frustration

[Shagie.7612]

they could change how rating is distributed, and cap how much rating the search can band over time and some other minor things, but none of it will improve matchmaking that much

as someone who's a fan of a few other very low population games (Battlerite, FANGS, Gigantic when it was around), it's really hard to solve population problems. games like league or dota would be similarly poor experiences if they were struggling for players like gw2 pvp is

i do get the frustration though and it definitely makes things worse in terms of player rentention/interest
some relatively new/inexperienced player tanking down into silver or bronze and still getting thrown into a game with a rank 1 player is a cruel joke

[Sahne.6950]

How about letting people set their "preferances".... 

 

"Quicksearch" tries to find you a game in a reasonable time, just like it is now.

"Normal" has a maximum skill difference of 200 Rating points.

 

But i already see so called "Top-players" abusing this....  OH MY.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

its not a problem with players not wanting to be competitive. arenanet has said directly that wvw remains strong with tens of thousands of players, but its a game mode that makes its own content whereas with pvp it has no content without updates. you can only fight the same dozen or so players so many times in a day.

 

half of the reason i started playing wvw more was because i could actually see fresh faces, and of course not get constantly flamed and have someone on my team sit idle every time i make a mistake. the balance is also really bad, because so many options have been taken away that you can't really make builds anymore and everyone runs the most cookie cutter overpowered build they can instead of crafting their own.

 

they'd have to completely overhaul pvp at this point to bring players back to it. pretty much the only thing that has kept it alive this long is legendary armor.

Edited June 19, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:00 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Without the function that widens the rating gap, I'd possibly look at 30+ minutes for my queues, which I'd refuse to partake in. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks so.

I guess it is better kill the game mode slowly and then leave.

On 6/17/2023 at 5:00 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Putting in the maximum rating gap will only lead to two things: sPvP leaking players even faster and queue times rising exponentially.

For top player the queue times would rise. The only thing the average Joe would notice are more fair games. Which in turn may increase the the player population.

[Fueki.4753]

53 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

I guess it is better kill the game mode slowly and then leave.

It becoming slowly worse as it is right now certainly is better than having it nose-dive towards certain death by skyrocketing the queue times.

53 minutes ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

For top player the queue times would rise. The only thing the average Joe would notice are more fair games. Which in turn may increase the the player population.

sPvP lacks players in all rating brackets.

There are not enough silver players to make a silver-only match in a reasonable queueing times.

There are not enough gold players to make a gold-only match in a reasonable queueing times.

I doubt there even are enough bronze players to make bronze-only matches in reasonable queue times.

Limiting matches to certain brackets will do nothing but raise the queue times, which in turn will cause players to leave. I doubt that the handful of players who may return will be able to offset or even surpass the number of players who leave.

And limiting the matches will do literally nothing against the reasons why sPvP is becoming worse in the first place.

Among other things wrong with sPvP, match manipulation and cheating will still continue as before.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[SlayerXX.7138]

3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It becoming slowly worse as it is right now certainly is better than having it nose-dive towards certain death by skyrocketing the queue times.

For a select few player the queue times will go up. The vast majority will have unchanged Q times and fairer games. You do see what appeasing top players did to the game? Death. You certainly have put many hours into the game mode, are you not at all interested for it to stay alive.

To this day I don't understand how the devs get away with keeping Duo Q.

[Fueki.4753]

1 minute ago, SlayerXX.7138 said:

For a select few player the queue times will go up. The vast majority will have unchanged Q times and fairer games. You do see what appeasing top players did to the game? Death. You certainly have put many hours into the game mode, are you not at all interested for it to stay alive.

To this day I don't understand how the devs get away with keeping Duo Q.

Who will actually benefit from your change? at most people who play at "prime time". Everyone else? they get less than the proverbial short end of the stick, because they literally can't get into any matches anymore, because not enough people in their bracket will queue at the same time as them.

Not everyone plays at the same time. The current system at least allows for everyone to get into matches.

Maybe you should stick your head out of your own time zone a bit.

And your issue still doesn't solve the far bigger issues that will persist after your idea: Match manipulation and cheating. In fact, these will get worse. Less people actually playing, because not everyone will bother with prolonged queue times, will end in higher encounter rates with those who cheat and manipulate matches.

[Orcdoc.8901]

As of now, queue times are extremely short. No matter the time of the day I'm getting a match within 2-4mins. The only reason why longer queue times would feel bad for me is the current restriction that for whatever reason you can't change maps during a queue.

That seems very arbitrary is there a reason why it's handled like that?

Edited June 19, 2023 by Orcdoc.8901

[SlayerXX.7138]

30 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

not enough people in their bracket will queue at the same time as them.

Nobody wants to play against people who are 2 divisions above them anyway. The current brackets are a Joke.

35 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And your issue still doesn't solve the far bigger issues that will persist after your idea: Match manipulation and cheating. In fact, these will get worse.

Then they should ban them. Besides, nobody match manipulates Gold or Silver games. I also don't like the whole argument about a couple of players apparently holding the game mode hostage and the rest of us should bend to their will. You do see what appeasing top players did to the game? Death.

 

 

[Morwath.9817]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Who will actually benefit from your change? at most people who play at "prime time". Everyone else? they get less than the proverbial short end of the stick, because they literally can't get into any matches anymore, because not enough people in their bracket will queue at the same time as them.

Not everyone plays at the same time. The current system at least allows for everyone to get into matches.

Maybe you should stick your head out of your own time zone a bit.

And your issue still doesn't solve the far bigger issues that will persist after your idea: Match manipulation and cheating. In fact, these will get worse. Less people actually playing, because not everyone will bother with prolonged queue times, will end in higher encounter rates with those who cheat and manipulate matches.

Well, tightening matchmaking should go together with adding more reasons for people to play sPvP. 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Well, tightening matchmaking should go together with adding more reasons for people to play sPvP. 

It would, and the only ways to fight that kind of resignation; the mentality of people who have completely given up on PvP and only care about the population superficially so that they can grind ranked rewards 24/7 on autopilot is to

1. Remove the participation award from ranked and put it in unranked and also make all the rewards available there as well

and 2. Instill competitive integrity in ranked by removing abusable 'features' like class-swapping, DuoQ, and again, the reward given for doing nothing. Nothing at all, save for being there.

And then there'd be options for both competitive and casual PvPers, we might see some people come back. Right now it is all casual because a true competition doesn't allow for competitive advantages within.

"A house divided cannot stand." -Matthew 12:25 🙏