Will Relics invalidate legendary runes? [Merged]

[Nightara.1804]

1 hour ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This is super whiny. A legendary rune allows you to instantly change your runes for free. That isn't changing so why do you need compensation? They are giving runes some QOL and optimizing them. If anything yall should be "complaining" about power creep...

When the patch hits, I will straight up lose 5% damage on most of my power builds.

Before the patch, I'll have 5% extra from Scholar's. After the patch, without changing anything, I will not have that 5% anymore.

I do not own any runes besides my legendary ones. I built them assuming I would never have to worry about builds anymore (Bc they were the last item I got). We are all aware that the patch will give everyone more flexibility, more options. We are happy about that. Not having to use Rune of the Thief on my Chrono where I waste tons of stats into Condition Damage just to get that 10% modifier and the Precision is great.

But I still don't like the thought of straight up losing a 5% damage modifier even though I went the extra mile of making sure I will never have to worry about not having it. And this isn't even restricted to legendary runes. What about people who invested into a significantly more expensive rune solely for the 6th special effect? Traveler vs Leadership, for example. Same stats except for the 6th  special effect, and while one of them can be bought for a couple of gold, the other one has to be farmed in a 1-2h meta. Is that fair?

[Endaris.1452]

17 hours ago, BlueLycan.8510 said:

The lack of any word from Anet on this so far is not very reassuring. Pure silence speaks volumes.

I would guess they don't know themselves how to do the transition yet.

Which I'm not sure if it's condemnable or not because the change in itself is rather positive for the build diversity in the game and I think none would see it as a negative on its own (except for adding more powercreep) if not for the implications for existing items and legendaries.

Or they might just be too busy with the fallout from the current patch, even after all the hotfixing thy already did.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

This is super whiny. A legendary rune allows you to instantly change your runes for free. That isn't changing so why do you need compensation? They are giving runes some QOL and optimizing them. If anything yall should be "complaining" about power creep...

They are splitting away some functionality from runes and to regain it you'd have to grind/spend gold again. Remember, that Legendaries were specifically supposed to be protected from something like this ever happening to them.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is something that ArenaNet have told us multiple times they wouldn't do - invalidating progress that the player has already made on their account.

Also, this.

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

Hope that compensation won't be something along the lines of "get 3 more boxes of relic of your choice" because that would be still missing the point, just saying 😅
But glad you're aware of the issue.

[Endilbiach.4132]

Ok, from what I'm reading Relics will absolutely not replace Relics.  I'll hold off stating that with complete certainty until we get more details, but since Relics will only be adding the effects of the 6th slot bonus from Runes not only will the Runes themselves be super useful (a lot of people in this thread are minimizing or outright dismissing the potency of the 1-5 effects) but it appears as though we'll be able to have our normal 6 runes and then the Relic which will give us the 6th rune effect of - if we so choose - a completely different rune set.

Want movement speed?  Travelers or Fireworks.
Heal on kill?  Vampirism.
10% extra damage to enemies under 50% health?  Eagle.

I think most people are underestimating how potentially awesome these are going to be, and how much they won't nerf current runes, and in fact may make a lot of currently lackluster runes way more viable.

AGAIN, IF I AM INTERPRETING CORRECTLY FROM THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE THUS FAR.

The struck out section is incorrect, I misread that.  Still, because able to freely choose the first 5 options and then select our 6th rune bonus is great.  It also doesn't appear clear to me what they're going to do about rune sets like Chronomancer that only have a unique effect on their 6th slot bonus, with no stat benefits?  Or are they moving the actual stats from 6th slots over with the Relics?  That does not read to be the case, but I've already been wrong once today.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Endilbiach.4132
You know, I really need to learn how to read.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Ok, from what I'm reading Relics will absolutely not replace Relics.  I'll hold off stating that with complete certainty until we get more details, but since Relics will only be adding the effects of the 6th slot bonus from Runes not only will the Runes themselves be super useful (a lot of people in this thread are minimizing or outright dismissing the potency of the 1-5 effects) but it appears as though we'll be able to have our normal 6 runes and then the Relic which will give us the 6th rune effect of - if we so choose - a completely different rune set.

I don't think people here somehow have trouble with understanding what relics will do, it's not exactly hard to understand. It's about disconnecting part of the legendary runes' utility and potentially making the players re-craft/buy/drop those bonuses separately. Something they "were done with" by the act of crafting legendary runes. People aren't worried about relics somehow "replacing" runes. It's about the nerf of the utility of the rather costly legendary runes.

6 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

and how much they won't nerf current runes, and in fact may make a lot of currently lackluster runes way more viable.

This thread isn't exactly about "runes" as a whole, it's about "legendary runes".

Edited June 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Nightara.1804]

2 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Ok, from what I'm reading Relics will absolutely not replace Relics.  I'll hold off stating that with complete certainty until we get more details, but since Relics will only be adding the effects of the 6th slot bonus from Runes not only will the Runes themselves be super useful (a lot of people in this thread are minimizing or outright dismissing the potency of the 1-5 effects) but it appears as though we'll be able to have our normal 6 runes and then the Relic which will give us the 6th rune effect of - if we so choose - a completely different rune set.

Want movement speed?  Travelers or Fireworks.
Heal on kill?  Vampirism.
10% extra damage to enemies under 50% health?  Eagle.

I think most people are underestimating how potentially awesome these are going to be, and how much they won't nerf current runes, and in fact may make a lot of currently lackluster runes way more viable.

AGAIN, IF I AM INTERPRETING CORRECTLY FROM THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE THUS FAR.

Quote from the official announcement:

"With the first release on August 22, the sixth tier of each rune set will instead complete the stat bonuses associated with that rune set, and the additional special effects or conditional bonuses will be removed entirely."

Nobody is questioning the improved versatility and slight power creep in some niche cases (Especially Condi builds and Power builds who aren't crit capped without Thief will profit), but people take issue with having to invest money to get back to where they were before the release.

Adding an easier-to-get legendary armor? Not an issue, nobody with a legendary armor will lose anything over it.
Adding a new way to earn the Skyscale? Doesn't matter, people who already have it will still keep it.
Adding new legendary weapons? Also fine, this isn't taking anything away from people.

All these cases might have an opportunity cost for people (As in, they could have spent the money differently if they had known ahead of time), but the relics as presented incur an actual cost for everyone. You had a full set of Scholar runes? Well, better get grinding, or you'll be weaker than you were before.

[Endilbiach.4132]

@Nightara.1804 I'm saying all of this from the perspective of someone who has a full 7 set of leggie runes as well.  We're honestly not losing anything, and if they add anything new we'll be the first to have it.  It's worth noting that Scholars is so popular not because of the 5% bonus damage on the 6th slot (statistically speaking that can be replaced by the 6th slot on Eagle, and that doesn't have a health level requirement), but because of how much Ferocity and Power it adds.  No other rune set adds that much DPS for a power build, assuming you can hit crit cap without precision on the runes.

And, as you said, adding new leggie armor doesn't detract from people with leggie armor already, because why would it?  It's much the same for us.  It would be really nice if for people who already have or in the future acquire a full set of leggie runes we're given a leggie Relic as well, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Ashen.2907]

1 minute ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

We're honestly not losing anything,

If you have scholar right now...

Day one of the relic system release is your DPS, without the bonus, equal to what you have now or is it less? A: it is less.

Have you lost the ability to immediately fully restat your build without having to re-purchase gear elements? A: yes you have.

[Nightara.1804]

6 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

@Nightara.1804 I'm saying all of this from the perspective of someone who has a full 7 set of leggie runes as well.  We're honestly not losing anything, and if they add anything new we'll be the first to have it.  It's worth noting that Scholars is so popular not because of the 5% bonus damage on the 6th slot (statistically speaking that can be replaced by the 6th slot on Eagle, and that doesn't have a health level requirement), but because of how much Ferocity and Power it adds.  No other rune set adds that much DPS for a power build, assuming you can hit crit cap without precision on the runes.

And, as you said, adding new leggie armor doesn't detract from people with leggie armor already, because why would it?  It's much the same for us.  It would be really nice if for people who already have or in the future acquire a full set of leggie runes we're given a leggie Relic as well, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

You don't get it.

Do you have the 5% bonus from Scholar when you log in before the patch? Yes.
Do you have the 5% bonus from Scholar when you log in after the patch? No.
Did you do anything that deserves to lose that bonus? No.
So why should it be fair to lose it?

And you can replace that with anything. Take the protection from Sanctuary, or the condi conversion from Leadership, I don't care, the same principle still applies. It's not about lowering the effectivity of legendary runes, it's not about the power creep, it's not about people forgetting how much more flexibility we have. It's about having to invest time and money into regaining something we lost.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

Yeah...I'm not preordering the expac until I see how this is going to be resolved. I JUST spent over 1.8k gold (and I am NOT rich) to guarantee I'd never have to worry about rune sets ever again on any character or build or gearset. Like, the concept of this relic thing would be cool...except for y'all said "HERE RELIC" while taking away the reason I made the runes in the first place and immediately invalidated the 1.8k gold + other legendary mats I ground out over the last several months.

If I wanted to deal with an Aion-grade here's-a-thing-you-worked-hard-for-now-I-take-it-away-grind-the-same-functionality-again garbage, I'd play Aion again.

I'm looking forward to my tempest auramancer being hardcore kneecapped because of losing the Trooper 6th bonus.

[Endilbiach.4132]

@Nightara.1804 and @QueenKeriti.5176 I see where you're coming from.  And if they do nothing for those of us with 7 leggie runes I'll be moderately upset as well.  I am excited at the prospect of greater flexibility coming down the road, but I agree that we should get something.

And no, before anyone says it: the Relic selection box at launch doesn't count, everyone's getting that.

[Zok.4956]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I can't wait until the people that don't have leggy runes find out that they need to buy the runes *and* the relic separately, while those that do don't, lol.

You don't have to wait any longer.

 

 

[Barraind.7324]

28 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

We're honestly not losing anything

You're losing access to having the ability to swap between every 6 piece bonus for every set of runes that have ever existed and ever will exist, on every character you ever make on that account, without having to do anything else to obtain those.  

You know, the thing you almost certainly made a set of legendary runes specifically to be able to do. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Barraind.7324

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, Barraind.7324 said:

You know, the thing you almost certainly made a set of legendary runes specifically to be able to do. 

I...uh...I made it so I don't have to do dungeons for runes...or spend gold for Scholars.  Or buy a new set any time my ADHD noodle decides it needs a new build.

I'm a little different in this regard.

Oh I also used to forget to put runes on sometimes.

[Endaris.1452]

38 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

not only will the Runes themselves be super useful (a lot of people in this thread are minimizing or outright dismissing the potency of the 1-5 effects)

Yeah no.

None is dismissing them. But fact is, they are much easier than the full set effect. For many combinations there are multiple runes that are identical.

Legendary runes were a compression of about 100 different runesets. If you count the individual combinations for the first 5 effects you only get to slightly over 60. Less if you consider combintions that only have primary and secondary stat inversed. So yes, it's a measurable decrease in flexibility.

And fact is that many of the accountbound meta runes that you cannot purchase, you primarily get for the 6th effect.

If not for the 6th effect of Monk, you could run Water.

If not for the 6th effect of Nightmare, you could run Trapper.

If not for the 6th effect of Sanctuary, you wouldn't run it at all (and Radiance would still be a same-stat alternative if you really wanted those stats for some reason).

The same is true for pretty much all non-account bound runes too, like Balthazar or Thief. On Thief runes specifically the 6th effect is so good that it becomes entirely ignorable that the stats themselves are bad.

The 6th effect is core to the utility and necessity of specific runes and if you were only going for stats you pretty much never had to go out of your way and acquire a rune that was either account bound or expensive.

So yes, it would remove a core feature from legendary runes.

[Endilbiach.4132]

17 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

I completely missed this earlier, hallelujah.

[TheNurgle.4825]

This is funny to read. Some ppl really complain that they loose 5% of DPS. Do even ppl know that they are playing MMO game? I am interest what will happen when GW2 servers close down and GW3 will come out. I would like to have some compensation for all time and gold I spend on my current char in next instalment of GW.

[Astralporing.1957]

56 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

No other rune set adds that much DPS for a power build, assuming you can hit crit cap without precision on the runes.

First 5 slots on Scholar are identical with Ogre and Deadeye sets. It's the 6th rune bonus that makes a difference.

[idpersona.3810]

3 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

so they give anyone whose earned a legendary rune a legendary relic. Solved?

That would solve it. That is the most direct solution possible. But I don't know that that is going to be how they handle it. Someone (here or in another thread) said that the basic stat bonuses are about 50% of the (current) runes functionality. The 6th rune accounts for the other 50%. So by moving that 6th rune bonus over to a new relic, runes themselves lost about 50% of their purpose. Which I mostly agree with. 

So I will wait patiently and see how this will be handled. Thankfully, I haven't crafted my runes yet. I was/am set to in just a couple of weeks (waiting on just spirit shards). For me, I'm not losing anything yet. But anyone that has already crafted the runes will in fact lose functionality they earned if this goes through without directly replacing that. 
Time will tell. I hope this gets handled well. But it does look like this is an issue they didn't even consider. 

[Endilbiach.4132]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

First 5 slots on Scholar are identical with Ogre and Deadeye sets. It's the 6th rune bonus that makes a difference.

Assuming that the Ferocity is part of the 6th slot bonus being moved over, then you're correct.  However, the wording of their announcement is a little ambiguous on that front and I'm not sure what that is going to look like when all is said and done.

[suialthor.7164]

27 minutes ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I would like to have some compensation for all time and gold I spend on my current char in next instalment of GW.

Something like the Hall of Monuments that gave rewards based on the previous game?

[Farming Flats.5370]

I expect a free legendary relic for my 7 "soon to be " downgraded runes.

 

Nothing less.

[Pagan Highlander.5948]

I agree, besides the flexibility of choosing instantly what rune set you wished to use or change, the 6th affect (in my case Vampirism and the 10% health increase) is the main reason for having it, removing that removes the reason for having Legendary runes. Add to that forcing us to grind a new currency to regain (even if you get to choose the 6th affect) ruins the entire purpose and reason for having legendary runes and takes away something i have already worked hard to obtain. 

  The best solution I can see is Leave Legendary runes as they are AND let people grind for a Relic which can be added to the Legendary rune with whatever affect they have (It could be adding an additional selectable 6th to the rune). This solves the problem and makes it less messy

[WeightTrainer.3219]

18 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hey all, I want to give you a quick response on this since it's of interest to so many of you! We're working on some more in-depth information to share with you, but in the meantime I can let you know that we are aware of your concerns that the Relics mechanic devalues Legendary Runes. We want to make sure we address those concerns, and we're finalizing a plan to compensate those of you who spent time and energy acquiring those Legendary Runes.

We'll be back with more details soon--thank you all for your feedback on Secrets of the Obscure and your excitement for Tuesday's announcement!

Will we have to buy the expansion in order to be compensated for our legendary runes nerf?