Boonball meta is bad

[zengara.8301]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

lol compared to what? Your “20 vs 80” glory days? DPS, sustain, boons, everything is at absolutely insane levels due to elite specs.

No, the reason your “20 vs 80” lost was due to the “80” actually learning how to deal with it while the “20” kept doing the good old stack and push.

Even Red Guard eventually fell to the cloud.

If anything the boonball meta has over the years made the “smaller” groups far stronger again.

Wiki the skills? Wells alone should give a good idea, and in regards to sustain. The entire engineer/super speed/mass cleanse thing is completely gone? How is everything "absolutely insane levels", when everything is down, from cooldown being way higher, so if they don't die, you lost, and with lowering of power coefficiency and sustain you die either way? I am playing the game, it genuinely feels like people became worse, not better, but the fact is, smaller groups can not kill bigger groups, because dmg output is down, and can not survive random wells thrown at them, because sustain is no longer constant. Which it was, as long as you move with the tag, and did what they asked- Beforehand 3 wells placed correctly, was a big problem, not so much anymore. The skill ceiling of this game has gone down in WvW because the differentiation between the good players, and the bad players exists less now. Based on lowering the damage, and lowering the overall button clicking. There are simply less buttons to click, and even moving perfectly and bombing a blob there is completely split, matters less now, because they won't die, unless if you are a blob as well.

My idea of "skills" in these kind of games, is pressing the buttons, and movement. Not ilvl gear, or even straight up winning. But "how you won", skill wise, which requires pressing buttons correctly, and doing your job, if it is strip, dmg, sustain etc. People had a theory about decreasing the amount of times you could press a skill, and the damage from that skill + lowering sustain, would increase skill levels, because then what and when you "pressed it matters". And in practice, it simply did not. You are just honestly wrong here

[ArchonWing.9480]

triple post, forums screwed up

Edited December 8, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[ArchonWing.9480]

triple post, forums screwed up

Edited December 8, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Did Red Guard actually stay around long enough for Minstrel gear to release? Don't remember how long they played, but decently sure they where most known before HOT, when Minstrel stats came out?

Yea it wasn't minstrel there for sure.

Though in Vanilla people were farming a lot of uplevels and there were no sites like metabattle. So they were running even more horrid stuff they did today, probably 14/14/14/14/14. I mean that was only a problem because people were somehow running the worst builds possible somehow.

I remember being able to 1v3 on an uplevel too. Good times, but it really did say more about the quality of the opposition.

Also super relevant to this discussion

https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18crofe/what_is_this_weird_i_cant_do_it_culture_in_gw2/

Edited December 8, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:05 PM, Hesione.9412 said:

At this point, they might as well just give everyone permanent swiftness, regen, stab, aegis, ... Would at least even the playing field.

They should've done that in instanced content in about 2017, the game would be in such a better state if they hadn't of spent all this time balancing instanced golem numbers, and ruining open world and wvw.

[Arya Whitefire.8423]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:16 PM, Sonork.2916 said:

So players who take time to organize cohesive groups, where everyone in the group has a role, like providing stab, heals damage, strips or other utility.  Shouldn't be rewarded for doing so?   The good guilds aren't just throwing a bunch of random players together and rolling everyone cause "boons."  People complain of the boon-balls but to do it well you actually have to organize 20+ people, get a driver to lead the group, make sure each group has the boons/healing/stab/dps support required, probably get the players into voice comms and have them make callouts during a fight + more.    

i guess I'm not sure what other group meta people would rather have.   

They should be rewarded, say 5-10-20%, not 3-5-10 times over.

[Sonork.2916]

21 minutes ago, Arya Whitefire.8423 said:

They should be rewarded, say 5-10-20%, not 3-5-10 times over.

I know where your coming from, but think of the skill cap for groups, as the same as the skill cap for roamers.  Good roamers will annihilate mid to low skill players, it won't even be a real fight.  It's the same for comped/optimized groups vs uncomped/unoptimized groups.   GW2 has a high skill cap, I've been playing for years and still get absolutely trounced by higher skilled players, it sucks, but that's just how GW2 is.

[Aeolus.3615]

21 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

Did Red Guard actually stay around long enough for Minstrel gear to release? Don't remember how long they played, but decently sure they where most known before HOT, when Minstrel stats came out?

Maybe i took notice of RG on it's final days? 

The ideia i have of them is that they did the full minstrell blob 1st than others.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Alsandar.7420]

Cal removed boonstrip from the game. Now there’s 9 pages in this thread complaining about boonball.

Balance team you gotta wake up

[Cuks.8241]

Even without boons random pug groups would get completely crushed by organised meta comps on voice chat.

Guilds will always find a winning tactic that gets abused to death (enemy death). If it means stacking 30 decked out frost mages for their aoe freeze spam followed by a squad of firemages for firestorm to anihilate frozen enemies. Or 20 longbow archers to snipe enemy guild leaders on sight making it mandatory for guild leaders to run the only warrior build with shield (in a game where respecing is super costly) that can reflect.

This happens in all games. Gw2 is pretty mild about it. You can at least participate. In some games you wouldnt come close to the objective without being in a comped group.

[Chaba.5410]

9 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Even without boons random pug groups would get completely crushed by organised meta comps on voice chat.

You're highlighting the futility of this discussion.  xD

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Even without boons random pug groups would get completely crushed by organised meta comps on voice chat.

Guilds will always find a winning tactic that gets abused to death (enemy death). If it means stacking 30 decked out frost mages for their aoe freeze spam followed by a squad of firemages for firestorm to anihilate frozen enemies. Or 20 longbow archers to snipe enemy guild leaders on sight making it mandatory for guild leaders to run the only warrior build with shield (in a game where respecing is super costly) that can reflect.

This happens in all games. Gw2 is pretty mild about it. You can at least participate. In some games you wouldnt come close to the objective without being in a comped group.

Yes, but these are separate issues we're talking about here.

Good players will always beat bad players in the long run. That doesn't mean counterplay shouldn't exist, or the definition of good can be challenged.

Game balance is like a safeguard. It does not exist to  encase players in padded walls and protect them from every possibility, but rather to put some reasonable limits on how badly things can degenerate.

And yes, plenty of other games are trash. I don't play any of them.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yes, but these are separate issues we're talking about here.

Good players will always beat bad players in the long run. That doesn't mean counterplay shouldn't exist, or the definition of good can be challenged.

Game balance is like a safeguard. It does not exist to  encase players in padded walls and protect them from every possibility, but rather to put some reasonable limits on how badly things can degenerate.

And yes, plenty of other games are trash. I don't play any of them.

This is not about balance. This is about creating inbalances to beat each other. Its not a spvp controlled enviroment.

There is counterplay, players just rather cry than organise and do whats neccessary. "buh buh but I want to have a chance against 50 man guild on voice with my skilled solo hunter"

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

This is not about balance. This is about creating inbalances to beat each other. Its not a spvp controlled enviroment.

There is counterplay, players just rather cry than organise and do whats neccessary. "buh buh but I want to have a chance against 50 man guild on voice with my skilled solo hunter"

Yea, there is counterplay, and said counterplay keeps getting nerfed.

Random pug rangers being ineffective is a red herring, and arguably so is spvp.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[ilMasa.2546]

Here's my idea: Anet should introduce a new mechanic, the BoonBall HERO.

What is the BOONBALL HERO?

When you are in a group of more than 15 people:
- a moving bar appears on your screen
- on this bar all the various boons will appear and move from right to left 
- if a player wants boons he must press an action button at the right time
- the more the combos the higher the boons uptime
- if a player miss a boon and break the combo he get condi stacks
 

Spoiler

i put a link for reference:  lmao

 

problem solved.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[XenesisII.1540]

DDR is about the only challenge you could throw their way these days.

They should just change the system, take off all boons and strips and conditions from player skills.

Instead you have all boons full stack on all the time, until you step into a aoe red zone, then it randomly converts 1 boon to a condition per pulse (doesn't matter how many red zones are under you, just 1 at a time per pulse). Except stability of course, we can't have them flooding the forums with their tears after, that's reserved for the plebs.

If you leave the red ring you instantly get the boons back.

There, everyone is on equal footing with buffs, and simply teaches you not to stand in the brown red gooey stuff.

☕

Be sure to Subscribe to my newsletter with your confused -->

[Cuks.8241]

12 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Yea, there is counterplay, and said counterplay keeps getting nerfed.

Random pug rangers being ineffective is a red herring, and arguably so is spvp.

I didnt mean specific game mechanics counterplay like strips. That is irrelevant. Counterplay as in doing what is neccesary to win instead of complaining that your way doesnt work.

And I dont see how go play spvp is a red herring. If players dont like to play in big groups or are bothered by big groups or boonball meta, there is a whole game mode for it. Yeah spvp has its problems but its a much more controlled enviroment that at least tries to be somewhat balanced and fair. Wvw is sandbox mode with big player numbers. It will always gravitate towards big organised groups and some kind of meta comps.

What boons are actualy good for, they provide a third and fourth role in a squad (booners and strippers). Remove boons and squad compositions might suddenly become way tigher as in top healer with best hps/cleanse output, top damage and maybe a utility role here and there because who doesnt love a good mesmer.

[XenesisII.1540]

Stack moar players, there's your counter in wvw.

😏☕

[ArchonWing.9480]

49 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I didnt mean specific game mechanics counterplay like strips. That is irrelevant. Counterplay as in doing what is neccesary to win instead of complaining that your way doesnt work.

 

No, counterplay is the ability to counter your opponent's tactics.

The opposite of counterplay is failing to counter your opponent's tactics.

 

People complaining is not relevant, nor is winning. These are side effects.  You can complain and still win, and you can complain and still counter your opponent's tactics.

You are confounding multiple things into 1 word.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

And I dont see how go play spvp is a red herring. If players dont like to play in big groups or are bothered by big groups or boonball meta, there is a whole game mode for it. Yeah spvp has its problems but its a much more controlled enviroment that at least tries to be somewhat balanced and fair.

We're talking about WvW.  sPvP is irrelevant.

You're falsely equating disliking a boonball meta as preferring a game mode of 5v5 in small capture points. This is what you call a false dichotomy.

Please note the thread title.  The title is not "Zerging is bad", "Meta is bad", or "Playing Organized Large groups is bad". The complaints are specifically against the current iteration of the meta. Nowhere in the OP says that they don't want to play in large scale, and definitely nothing implies they want to 5v5. And certainly nowhere in my post indicates any preference towards pvp/small scale.

Also btw, even at small scale, pvp is fundamentally different from WvW. So even if people prefer small scale, it does not mean they should go to spvp. It's about as useful as a recommendation as telling them to go play raids instead.

If you don't understand this, I would strongly recommend against gatekeeping this game mode, thanks.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Famine.7915]

Spike boons and combo fields was the better way. Now it is too easy to get so much with little effort.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Famine.7915

[Xzygy.1452]

If they did make it so that a handful of people could take down a 50 man comped, coordinated blob in coms, I'm pretty sure the entire game-mode would be unplayable. 

Many of us that run in a coordinated group aren't even interested really in the objectives, we want to fight the other guilds.  The game we're playing doesn't have the same objectives of the one you're playing, and we're not terribly interested in fighting small groups unless they're picking our runbacks, pin sniping, or trying to cloud us.

Our presence doesn't make the game unplayable, it just means that to play the game you want to play, you need to do it smartly.  Be where we aren't, take advantage of the fact that the group can only be in one place at a time.  Take objectives in small groups, fan out, alternate between hitting the other two sides.  Avoid orange swords.  Coordinate what you're doing in map chat.  Provide scouting calls to the tag on your map.  Hit and run, don't follow a predictable path, like taking camp then towers, then making a play for the keep.  When others call out small numbers incoming to an objective, help defend, but when the zerg shows, pop smoke.  This is called "Havoc."  One group doing this can be very effective, but many groups can be overwhelming.  When everything has swords on it, you can't know what's being hit.

[Aeolus.3615]

14 hours ago, Xzygy.1452 said:

If they did make it so that a handful of people could take down a 50 man comped, coordinated blob in coms, I'm pretty sure the entire game-mode would be unplayable. 

Many of us that run in a coordinated group aren't even interested really in the objectives, we want to fight the other guilds.  The game we're playing doesn't have the same objectives of the one you're playing, and we're not terribly interested in fighting small groups unless they're picking our runbacks, pin sniping, or trying to cloud us.

Our presence doesn't make the game unplayable, it just means that to play the game you want to play, you need to do it smartly.  Be where we aren't, take advantage of the fact that the group can only be in one place at a time.  Take objectives in small groups, fan out, alternate between hitting the other two sides.  Avoid orange swords.  Coordinate what you're doing in map chat.  Provide scouting calls to the tag on your map.  Hit and run, don't follow a predictable path, like taking camp then towers, then making a play for the keep.  When others call out small numbers incoming to an objective, help defend, but when the zerg shows, pop smoke.  This is called "Havoc."  One group doing this can be very effective, but many groups can be overwhelming.  When everything has swords on it, you can't know what's being hit.

I think ur getting confused here due how much players are poking other players, the issue isn't players stack up  nor the players making game unplayable, but Anet mentality giving to much overperformance on minstrels stacking and the perma boons scheme while nerfed the counter to perma boons, situation like rip 14 stacks of stability from a target and the next second theres already 10 stacks of stability that  and many  other boons that  CARRY the zerg of boon ballers that is the issue... Balance and ANET lamerways of giving more low effort  to the big blob of minstrells.

Anet rewards way to much the boonnall that is the real problem and some players ending in bashing on the players rather the guys making the "balance".

 

IF Anet removes minstrell lameness from the game WvW balance will be much better that is the real issue behind the zergs.

Note: no matter how much Anet cut the support quoficientes the stats are still there and players will stack even more minstrells if needed, the problem are the stats themselves.

@ANET THE  PROBLEM IS YOU! NOT THE PLAYERS, at least remove toughness from minstrel and add something else, crit chance would be interesting tho.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[RisingDawn.5796]

It's time to buff WoD and spellbreakers again boon strips, even if it means more visual clutter, due to the bubbles, once  guilds/open tags start using more of those once again, not necessarily, stack them.

I bet it would help with, some of the skill lag, we're seeing these days too.

Although,  cloud kill farming players, complaining about boon blobs, when they pretty much farm kills against full pug groups, is rich.

Edited December 17, 2023 by CrimsonOneThree.5682

[Chaba.5410]

Doesn't mean the randoms and pug players are actually going to BRING and use those boon strips/corrupts.  They had trouble with it before it was nerfed too.  NA players especially run their own special sauce builds and have a terrible attitude towards bringing something useful.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:09 PM, CrimsonOneThree.5682 said:

It's time to buff WoD and spellbreakers again boon strips, even if it means more visual clutter, due to the bubbles, once  guilds/open tags start using more of those once again, not necessarily, stack them.

I bet it would help with, some of the skill lag, we're seeing these days too.

Although,  cloud kill farming players, complaining about boon blobs, when they pretty much farm kills against full pug groups, is rich.

WoD targeting quickness in 1st place would be dope IMO.

Chronos could steal alacrity xD

Edited December 19, 2023 by Aeolus.3615