Getting rid of quickness and alacrity

[Imperial.8471]

For a while now, in PvE at least, the game has revolved around two major boons, quickness and alacrity. They became so big in the meta to increase squad DPS that any new content ended up being balanced with these two considered a given, making them not a boost to squad composition but a necessity to be competitive. Thus making the power creep worse. And since the philosophy of class balancing has always be that any class can take on any role, quickness and alacrity generation got slowly introduced into every class through elite specializations. 

This Tuesday introduced the boons to all the classes that were still missing it. Alacrity for warriors and necromancers, quickness for thieves. And the way many specializations give their boons has been modified as well. We all know the result, there has been hundred of pages of feedback about it

Some classes, necromancers most of all, lost their identities, boon stripping and reviving. Most healers have their active boon generation tied to reactive healing mechanics, a poor design choice badly damaging the gameplay experience and efficiency that the small number increases just announced won't change.

All these sacrifices, all these classes butchered, in the name of quickness and alacrity. I saw a lot of people lately suggest Anet plainly removes the boons from the game and I personnaly like the idea, but I'm curious to see what other people think. Should we remove these boons, or should we keep them and hope Anet eventually understands how to balance its own classes?

[Psoewish.9172]

I've been complaining about these boons for a very long time now to my friend group, but it was always accompanied by "but people would hate that, so it's not even worth suggesting". I'm really glad people have started talking about how problematic these changes are now, and I will for sure be far more vocal about the issues as well.

There's quite a few ways to fix this issue, with the most obvious being to just outright remove both from the game, and apply the effects baseline to all skills. This would be completely fine to me.

Another approach would be my preferred method:
Remove quickness from the game, roll the effects into every single ability at say 80% (random spitball number, just for illustration, and numbers can always be tweaked). Then you can balance every encounter with this variable just completely removed.
Additionally, I like the effect of alacrity in a thematic sort of way, and would even argue that it's a very core component to the class identity of a few specs. However it would be great if this was changed to be a self buff only, maybe change it from a boon to an effect. This way you can keep the fun interactions for the specs where it feels appopriate, and to add some extra spice to their playstyle. Chronomancer is a great example of this, the minor trait is actually a ton of fun to play with.

Obviously as I mentioned the second solution presented would be my preferred method, but I don't know which of the two is more feasible. Both would be a substantial amount of work, and would require a large overhaul to many traits, but the payoff would be so worth it for both the balance team and the players.

There are definitely more ways to handle the situation, I've just presented two off the top of my head here. You could mix and match several ideas, even! There's loads of people with cool sounding ideas and I honestly think you would be doing yourselves a disservice if you didn't at the very least have a proper internal meeting about it. If you decide this isn't where you want the game to go, so be it, but just ... consider it as an option.

As it stands, several specs keeping getting stripped of their identity just to support boons that have far overstayed their welcome. No matter whether these boons get removed or not, a drastic change is needed regardless. The current way is not working, and hasn't been working for a long time.

[otto.5684]

I am beginning to lean that they should be removed as a sharable boon. Nearly all classes now have 1 build for each buff. It feels redundant and pointless. If it needs 100% uptime and everyone should have it, it might as well not exist.

I think they should be an individual build buff, like alacrity was when chrono was introduced, instead of a boon. 

[DeceiverX.8361]

I've been advocating for their downright removal literally since quickness was sharable and alacrity was added to the game.

These aren't healthy mechanics.  They exist for numbers power creep and literally nothing else.  They aren't fun, don't actually contribute meaningfully in any way that affects playing the content as intended (at best they just enable phase skips with the numbers increases being offset by dropping boss HP if desired), and don't feel like meaningful bumps in power with very low uptime like they used to in order to give players a sense of real short-term domination.  As they stand, you spam their sources, and skills go brrr.

They mess with PvP/WvW and combat clarity.  They make the smooth animations the game has look silly.  They inhibit build diversity.  For what?  A weird power fantasy that becomes so normalized it might as well not exist.

It's just bad design trying so hard to cater to a group of players that cares only about their spreadsheet numbers going up. 

Drop boss/mob HP by a bit and let the game go back to its originally-intended pace. 

Easy fix.  People will complain, but they won't actually care when 25k is a top-tier number instead if 40k, and now everyone is doing 22k instead of 30k.

Edited June 30, 2023 by DeceiverX.8361

[DeceiverX.8361]

29 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

I am beginning to lean that they should be removed as a sharable boon. Nearly all classes now have 1 build for each buff. It feels redundant and pointless. If it needs 100% uptime and everyone should have it, it might as well not exist.

I think they should be an individual build buff, like alacrity was when chrono was introduced, instead of a boon. 

Which ironically, is how quickness used to be.

This is the entire mantra of why permanent boon uptime is bad in all forms.  It defeats the original purpose and promotes a very stagnant game-state which only changes until they utterly gut/rework things based on those boons, because the builds with more effective stats are just always going to be better than those without.

[hash.8462]

I voted NO, but I also don't like the situation.

Personally I wolud just nerf those elite boons to 20% and 10% respectively and make them more accessible everywere like the others normal boons (of course some profession that heavily rely on them will have ro be rebalanced a bit); or, as someone already said, just exist as personal non shaerable boons.

[Hotride.2187]

Watch this get ignored too.

[Serephen.3420]

 

Confirmation bias, most people don't care.

Also be careful for what you wish for. 

Because how things are are largely a result of that.

 

[Psoewish.9172]

11 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

 

Confirmation bias, most people don't care.

Also be careful for what you wish for. 

Because how things are are largely a result of that.

 

Honestly I've expected things were going down this way for a while now, especially with how absolutely obsessed everyone seems with these boons. From reading the forums a ton over the past week, it seems like I'm not the only one with this assessment and a lot of us have been kind of just sitting on these frustrations for a while.

If you look at my profile, I've never even posted before this patch, but at some point we just have to start speaking up. I know exactly what I'm wishing for and it's not going to fix everything overnight with these proposed changes, but it sure would go a very long way in getting us there.

Fixing these boons is just step 1, but also arguably the most important step, because they are holding a lot of areas of the game back as it stands now. The next step would be restoring class identity to a lot of the specs without having the constraints of having to account for these boons all of the time. It opens up a lot of fun design choices where things like personal quickness and alacrity type effects can be implemented into the specs where it makes sense to do so. Also if it's a personal effect, and not a boon, it wouldn't be affected by things like concentration anymore, so we'd prevent falling into the same pit as we did now.

I know it's not a perfect solution, and it's really hard to implement these things purely because of how ingrained they are in the game now, but something is needed and this genuinely feels like the most obvious step to me.

[Leo G.4501]

I said it in another thread, tongue in cheek tho but there's a grain of truth to it:

Mesmers are the source of all Power Creep.

They were the first to offer the utility of mass Quickness before it became a boon and they were the first profession to offer Alacrity. Would it be so bad to basically put all that back? Having to time your individual use of Quickness but having Mesmer offer a team-wide but limited version? Having a touch of alacrity to smooth out some long cooldowns but that's about it.

In their bid to balance out the classes, they homogenized them. Quickness and Alacrity was never the problem. It's the AMOUNT of them coupled with a bunch of other additions that has become the problem.  Boons in general have gotten out of hand...they could shave some of that back too if they want to assist balance...

[SponTen.1267]

I voted "No", not because I don't think there's a problem (there really is), but because I love the feel of going from unbuffed -> buffed.

I know those of you who mostly Raid/Strike with groups that organise Quick/Alac before you even start may not know what I mean, or may not agree with me if you do, but the type of gameplay I'm referring to is very common in solo or pug OW, Dungeons, <T4 Fractals, WvW, and even PvP to some degree. It's the type of gameplay that GW2 was initially designed around; you pick what you feel like playing and then just go and play it, sometimes happening across other adventurers or joining a group in LFG, or maybe inviting a friend or two from your friends list and guild/s.

The boon system, including Quickness and Alacrity, are so much fun when you play like this. Trying to work various boons into your build is such a big part of this game, like:
- Playing into your strengths, eg. high Vigor uptime for a Daredevil
- Covering your weaknesses, eg. high Protection and Regeneration uptime for a melee Guardian
- Or pumping your group in key moments, eg. group Quickness when you break a defiance bar

I don't know what percentage of the playerbase plays like this, but I am always able to find groups or just run into others as I play who are playing this way, and that's during off peak as I live in Australia. I've even been creating Raid groups lately that cater to this "midcore" type of player, who does want to optimise a bit and help the team, but also doesn't want to hyper-focus on 100% optimal groups because it's draining and limits build variety.

SO, I would prefer for Quickness and Alacrity, given how powerful they are and how much extra fun they can bring to the game, to instead not be able to be kept up permanently by single builds. They should be some sort of burst, allowing you to get out a Meteor Shower easier, or maybe activated during a defiance bar break to really dish out the damage. Perhaps they could even be partly tied to defiance bar breaks, to encourage more cc in builds; the more damage you deal to a defiance bar, the more Quickness/Alacrity you get from it when it breaks (on top of the damage boost).

But still, if this can't be done, then yeah I'd prefer them to be removed from the game rather than be poorly-baked into every class because they're so powerful that people feel kitten without them.

[Aldentium.1452]

this is my first time ever writing in a forum so i apologize for any mistakes, but i want to add up a new player (coming from other MMOs) perspective, i been playing this game for almost 9 months now, tried most of the content expect Challenge Mode, i have noticed how LFG heavily relay on those 2 boons all the time, so i tried going for a class with a spec that provide that and being new player friendly, i found out about Alacrity power Mech, and tried it out to be shocked that all i needed to do is just get some stats and let my mech on auto and i will just be giving alacrity 100%.

After reading about it more it seems as most build dedicated for those buffs provide said boons 100% uptime as well, which kind of make them pointless, your just forcing a squad member to pick a class to just activate a boon by just being there having strict build dedicated for that boon.

 

On 7/1/2023 at 8:06 AM, SponTen.1267 said:

I voted "No", not because I don't think there's a problem (there really is), but because I love the feel of going from unbuffed -> buffed.

i totally agree with you MR.SponTen on the feeling of power gain when getting buffed, but those 2 boons aren't just buff, they are in the realm of game cheats, as a new player myself whenever i get in a group that have those buffs i just shut my mind off and just push button because i know no matter how badly i preformed having those 2 buffs will just make my dps still high regardless, a good example of getting buffed is in FFXIV before the Endwalker update when it became a 2 minute timed buffs, back then you will play your card right, you will have many different buffs mostly, just increase in power, similar to might, kind of like (you give yourself 25 might and the other party members will provide more might added to the one you gave yourself) <except BLM and SAM>

i just want to emphasis that relaying on those 2 boons going forward is heavily holding back endgame content balance and classes.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:06 AM, SponTen.1267 said:

I voted "No", not because I don't think there's a problem (there really is), but because I love the feel of going from unbuffed -> buffed.

I know those of you who mostly Raid/Strike with groups that organise Quick/Alac before you even start may not know what I mean, or may not agree with me if you do, but the type of gameplay I'm referring to is very common in solo or pug OW, Dungeons, <T4 Fractals, WvW, and even PvP to some degree. It's the type of gameplay that GW2 was initially designed around; you pick what you feel like playing and then just go and play it, sometimes happening across other adventurers or joining a group in LFG, or maybe inviting a friend or two from your friends list and guild/s.

The boon system, including Quickness and Alacrity, are so much fun when you play like this. Trying to work various boons into your build is such a big part of this game, like:
- Playing into your strengths, eg. high Vigor uptime for a Daredevil
- Covering your weaknesses, eg. high Protection and Regeneration uptime for a melee Guardian
- Or pumping your group in key moments, eg. group Quickness when you break a defiance bar

I don't know what percentage of the playerbase plays like this, but I am always able to find groups or just run into others as I play who are playing this way, and that's during off peak as I live in Australia. I've even been creating Raid groups lately that cater to this "midcore" type of player, who does want to optimise a bit and help the team, but also doesn't want to hyper-focus on 100% optimal groups because it's draining and limits build variety.

SO, I would prefer for Quickness and Alacrity, given how powerful they are and how much extra fun they can bring to the game, to instead not be able to be kept up permanently by single builds. They should be some sort of burst, allowing you to get out a Meteor Shower easier, or maybe activated during a defiance bar break to really dish out the damage. Perhaps they could even be partly tied to defiance bar breaks, to encourage more cc in builds; the more damage you deal to a defiance bar, the more Quickness/Alacrity you get from it when it breaks (on top of the damage boost).

But still, if this can't be done, then yeah I'd prefer them to be removed from the game rather than be poorly-baked into every class because they're so powerful that people feel kitten without them.

This is how they used to be; Quickness actually used to be even more extreme at game launch; it was a very short-term effect that provided 100% casting speed, but was so OP it had to get nerfed to 50% because it was breaking PvP/WvW where nobody could even react to stuff lol.

Only later on was it made into a boon, and only later than that was it made a sharable one.

I don't think the general mantra is attack speed bonuses should be removed entirely; but these effects *as boons* need to go, especially due to the fact concentration/bon duration exists (again, an additional thing that came out even later with HoT than when Quickness was changed into a boon as part of the specialization update).

But as they are, these boons need to go.  They just break way too much, especially Quickness.

[Tachenon.5270]

In my immaculate opinion, Quickness and Alacrity should come solely from consumables. Like food and utility items. Only in this case, it would be a table laden with lines of white powder. Call it, I dunno, snowstone dust. Click on it, and our commanders bend down and take a big snort. That would more accurately depict the present situation.

[rotten.9753]

I feel like people are underestimating how much damage increase both Might and Fury bring and overestimating how much damage increase both Quickness and Alacrity. From the DPS perspective, Alacrity is around Fury when it comes to damage increase and Quickness is slightly higher than 25 Might stacks, it mostly depends on the build. I don't really see any complaining about those 2 other boons, yet you still build your team composition around them as well, it's usually just hidden behind "Heal" and sometimes "BoonDPS" positions that also bring a lot more boons.

[Imperial.8471]

Fury and Might tend to be generated naturally by most classes, even dps bring it to the squad, while healers have very little effort to fill any holes in it. Quickness and alacrity on the other hand require dedicated builds. That's why in lfg you see squads looking for quick or alac, never for might or fury. And dedicated quickness or alacrity builds mean sacrificing a lot of other builds and mechanics in Anet's idea of balance

 

[rotten.9753]

15 minutes ago, Imperial.8471 said:

Fury and Might tend to be generated naturally by most classes, even dps bring it to the squad, while healers have very little effort to fill any holes in it. Quickness and alacrity on the other hand require dedicated builds. That's why in lfg you see squads looking for quick or alac, never for might or fury. And dedicated quickness or alacrity builds mean sacrificing a lot of other builds and mechanics in Anet's idea of balance

 

That's what Solar said ANet wanted, but it's far from truth right now - otherwise they wouldn't be buffing in 1 week some BoonDPS/BoonHeal builds like Druid or Herald to generate more Might.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I don't see the need to remove them.

I would prefer if they stacked in intensity instead of duration, like Might.

Alacrity would then be the boon the party spams to ready up skills before a burst, and quickness the boon the party spams right before the burst to do as much as possible in as little time as possible while the boss' guard is down, something active that requires coordination, rather than something passible and boring people ned to keep 100% of the time as basline.

But changing it to work like that would also mean there would have to be more sources of them, like with Might.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

There should be a 3rd option on the poll for a rework. Quickness and alacrity are fun in short, bursty doses, like when Time Warp came out. Hell, all boons are better like that. I didn't vote, because I don't think they need to be removed entirely, but they certainly need a massive nerf. I'm not sure where that would leave me, a FB main, but it would be better for the game. Make all boons, especially quick and alac, only viable for short busrts. Then you can build mechanics around that structure for instance content.

On 7/1/2023 at 1:06 AM, SponTen.1267 said:

I voted "No", not because I don't think there's a problem (there really is), but because I love the feel of going from unbuffed -> buffed.

I know those of you who mostly Raid/Strike with groups that organise Quick/Alac before you even start may not know what I mean, or may not agree with me if you do, but the type of gameplay I'm referring to is very common in solo or pug OW, Dungeons, <T4 Fractals, WvW, and even PvP to some degree. It's the type of gameplay that GW2 was initially designed around; you pick what you feel like playing and then just go and play it, sometimes happening across other adventurers or joining a group in LFG, or maybe inviting a friend or two from your friends list and guild/s.

The boon system, including Quickness and Alacrity, are so much fun when you play like this. Trying to work various boons into your build is such a big part of this game, like:
- Playing into your strengths, eg. high Vigor uptime for a Daredevil
- Covering your weaknesses, eg. high Protection and Regeneration uptime for a melee Guardian
- Or pumping your group in key moments, eg. group Quickness when you break a defiance bar

I don't know what percentage of the playerbase plays like this, but I am always able to find groups or just run into others as I play who are playing this way, and that's during off peak as I live in Australia. I've even been creating Raid groups lately that cater to this "midcore" type of player, who does want to optimise a bit and help the team, but also doesn't want to hyper-focus on 100% optimal groups because it's draining and limits build variety.

SO, I would prefer for Quickness and Alacrity, given how powerful they are and how much extra fun they can bring to the game, to instead not be able to be kept up permanently by single builds. They should be some sort of burst, allowing you to get out a Meteor Shower easier, or maybe activated during a defiance bar break to really dish out the damage. Perhaps they could even be partly tied to defiance bar breaks, to encourage more cc in builds; the more damage you deal to a defiance bar, the more Quickness/Alacrity you get from it when it breaks (on top of the damage boost).

But still, if this can't be done, then yeah I'd prefer them to be removed from the game rather than be poorly-baked into every class because they're so powerful that people feel kitten without them.

[Dadnir.5038]

The truth is that without Quickness and Alacrity share the build diversity in PvE would be worse than it currently is and complains would rain all over the forum.

People voting visibly weren't there a few months before HoT release were the meta was 4 elementalist and 1 thief (for stealth) with everybody in zerk gear. If the devs remove Quick/Alac share, there is 90% chance that we go back to a very similar situation as back then. It will just be the "best" healer and the "best" dps build on the benchmark x4. With some people kicking you if you're not playing one of those 2 builds.

[Leo G.4501]

4 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

I feel like people are underestimating how much damage increase both Might and Fury bring and overestimating how much damage increase both Quickness and Alacrity. From the DPS perspective, Alacrity is around Fury when it comes to damage increase and Quickness is slightly higher than 25 Might stacks, it mostly depends on the build. I don't really see any complaining about those 2 other boons, yet you still build your team composition around them as well, it's usually just hidden behind "Heal" and sometimes "BoonDPS" positions that also bring a lot more boons.

You do hear about people complaining about ALL boons. People have complained about the boon-spam meta and perma boons and the quiet shelving of combos since most don't need them to keep their might nearly capped. 

[SponTen.1267]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The truth is that without Quickness and Alacrity share the build diversity in PvE would be worse than it currently is and complains would rain all over the forum.

People voting visibly weren't there a few months before HoT release were the meta was 4 elementalist and 1 thief (for stealth) with everybody in zerk gear. If the devs remove Quick/Alac share, there is 90% chance that we go back to a very similar situation as back then. It will just be the "best" healer and the "best" dps build on the benchmark x4. With some people kicking you if you're not playing one of those 2 builds.

That was a completely different era. We still have a "best" healer and "best" dps now; it's just that an extra two "required" boons are involved in builds.

It's possible to balance the game in many different ways. Just because Quickness and Alacrity (and maybe boons in general) are changed, doesn't mean the balance will be worse.

[Burnfall.9573]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:59 PM, Imperial.8471 said:

For a while now, in PvE at least, the game has revolved around two major boons, quickness and alacrity. They became so big in the meta to increase squad DPS that any new content ended up being balanced with these two considered a given, making them not a boost to squad composition but a necessity to be competitive. Thus making the power creep worse. And since the philosophy of class balancing has always be that any class can take on any role, quickness and alacrity generation got slowly introduced into every class through elite specializations. 

This Tuesday introduced the boons to all the classes that were still missing it. Alacrity for warriors and necromancers, quickness for thieves. And the way many specializations give their boons has been modified as well. We all know the result, there has been hundred of pages of feedback about it

Some classes, necromancers most of all, lost their identities, boon stripping and reviving. Most healers have their active boon generation tied to reactive healing mechanics, a poor design choice badly damaging the gameplay experience and efficiency that the small number increases just announced won't change.

All these sacrifices, all these classes butchered, in the name of quickness and alacrity. I saw a lot of people lately suggest Anet plainly removes the boons from the game and I personnaly like the idea, but I'm curious to see what other people think. Should we remove these boons, or should we keep them and hope Anet eventually understands how to balance its own classes?

Imagine Competitive Game Companies like: Snk Playmore, Cygames, Capcom, NetherRealm Studios, SquareEnix, Bandai Namco, Riot Games, Respawn Entertaiment... forcing Quickness and Alacrity to their game

Can you imagine the Destructive Toxic Impact it would have to its players, its stability, its Community and most importantly...to its Reputation in the Competitive Gaming Market?

-This is what I have been saying and not many has grasp what I am saying, Anet knows that it has lost their Reputation in the Competitive Gaming Market and has lost their attraction to promote Guild Wars 2 as a Healthy Competitive Game...

what else is left for Anet to do?

Damage Control in the name of Totalitarianism Philosophy

 

Totalitarianism has take over Anet and there is no end to it....unless the root of it, is removed alongside with everyone who it has infected.

Yes, I am talking about a Mass Termination-Mass Layoff within Anet including retiring the entire balance team.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Matoro.9708]

I definitely feel there has been a huge departure from class identity particularly compared to the distinct value professions had in GW1. I say embrace the differences - people love different things, so let them love them more. I don't play the game because I really love two little boon icons (or any other centralizing factor that means tasty endgame performance). I roleplay. Don't force me out of that.

[Raarsi.6798]

Of those two choices, yes, get rid of them for sure.  By removing those buffs, players can play options they want to for the fun factor and not what they have to because god forbid we go without our precious two buffs.  As long as they exist, I will continue to point to them, how strong they are, and use those as the prime example that balance devs at Anet are either incompetent or (I'd say more likely) hamstrung by someone higher up at Anet who is.

However, I still stick to liking one idea brought up from a dev letter suggesting to remove alacrity and baking the cooldown reductions into all skills and then making quickness only affect the caster, which makes me wonder just what the hell happened at Anet when had that whiplash-inducing 180 into giving everyone those boons and somehow expecting every player to like it.  It blows my mind thinking that we could've potentially had a reasonable solution only to get sidelined by what seemed to have been some higher-up muppet at Anet clinging to them with the idiotic mindset that they're good gameplay.