Daoyun.3157 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 What are your thoughts on support vindicator as of now? I find it disappointing because ArenaNet has nerfed it 3 times consecutively without adding anything useful to it. Support vindicator was mainly used in wvw zergs because of its massive healing, decent barrier output, and decent condi cleansing. I agree with the fact that ArenaNet needed to nerf the healing, and I’m glad they did. The problem is that after this update, they finally killed support vindicator. They only now do decent healing, kitten barrier output, and kitten condi cleansing. Support vindicator is not needed anymore in zergs because tempest are more useful since they provide just as much healing as support vindicator, and they can do massive condi cleansing while providing auras. In all honesty, support vindicator wouldn’t have been viable without the massive healing. If they did decent healing, they wouldn’t be used because of other classes like druid and tempest. The healing is what made vindicator stand out the most, and ArenaNet has taken the only thing that made them viable. They have never provided useful utility such as alac or quickness, but instead provide useless boons like regeneration and might which any other classes can do. It’s sad to see support vindicator becoming another victim of ArenaNet’s poor balancing of classes. The latest update really killed support vindicator because they increased the upkeep cost from 5 to 7. It was already hard to manage energy, but now you made it almost impossible. Not only do you have to worry about your health draining and getting cleaved with a bunch of damage, but you will also struggle managing your energy resource. What I suggest is changing back the upkeep skill to 5, but add a 3-5 second cooldown for the Alliance Legend’s elite skill. This way people can’t abuse the elite skill by spamming it. That’s the only thing that I would change. In the future, I hope to see support vindicator being able to provide more utility such as more resistance or resolution. I don’t think big priority skills are needed such as quickness or alacrity, but giving them something other than regen and might makes them more useful to the zerg or party. Literally no one would accept a heal vindicator in raids because they don’t provide quickness or alacrity. I’m saying this for both PvE and WvW. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 I can agree on that besides healing and now very limited condicleanse, there is nothing special, no auras, no great utility on demand on the kit, just healing. Cannot tell for zerg scenario but in small groups it still kinda work.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenwulfe.5360 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Given the changes that have gone through, I don't get the impression that ANet wants boons like quick and alac on the healers anymore. Most of the heavy heal specs now can't really maintain quick or alac optimally without sacrificing their healing and defensive support abilities. Heal herald is bad to go heal quick now so best to just focus on healing and go with draconic echos to give boosts and also keep the facet active even when inactive. This meta design is the quick and alac are being pushed into the hands of the DPS. So wondering why Mechanist and Firebrand don't have to make that choice yet though. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar.8634 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said: Heal herald is bad to go heal quick now so best to just focus on healing and go with draconic echos to give boosts and also keep the facet active even when inactive done eod nm strikes just now on healherald, was not bad. stab on ventary elite is nice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryDude.1572 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) The heal in wvw was beyond busted, now it,s normal enough. If you play the class with minimal mistakes you still make the most out of it. Edited July 3, 2023 by MysteryDude.1572 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daoyun.3157 Posted July 4, 2023 Author Share Posted July 4, 2023 2 hours ago, MysteryDude.1572 said: The heal in wvw was beyond busted, now it,s normal enough. If you play the class with minimal mistakes you still make the most out of it. I agree the healing was busted, and it needed to be nerfed several times, but that’s all what support vindicators are used for. Although you can still make the most out of it, there’s really no point since most big zergs won’t take you. Massive healing was unique to support vindicator which made them wanted. In recent zerg fights with arcdps on, your healing is in line with tempest, so there’s no reason to go support vindicator because tempest provides auras, massive condi cleansing, and healing while vindicator can only produce only a bit more healing than tempest. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 Whole vindi support kit is starting base line for any other support, then they get lot more toys to play with. That is sad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdo.1540 Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 With urn upkeep being freaking 7 , they could easily remove the self-harm and no-heal-incoming debuff ... so it could be worth paying attention to 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angesombre.4630 Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 What's particularly annoying about the urn is the time it takes to put it down, especially with the malus on it. If it were instantaneous, it would be better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oceanox.4217 Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 Arena net nerf vindicator a lot because they want you to only play healer druid or tempest, the other classes don't matter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 On 7/3/2023 at 7:31 PM, Catchyfx.5768 said: I can agree on that besides healing and now very limited condicleanse, there is nothing special, no auras, no great utility on demand on the kit, just healing. Cannot tell for zerg scenario but in small groups it still kinda work.. use salvation line 3-3-3 Anet want u to support like a frog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soilder.3607 Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 (edited) The amount of power healing heal vindicator could do in combination with its barrier output was overpowered. No other support came close, not even Druid which is an astounding healer in itself. The only thing I disagree with in these nerfs is removing some condition cleanse from Tree Song; Vindicators already cannot match Druids or Tempests in condition cleansing output, though they still have decent cleansing output. Support Vindicator doesn't have any unique utility comparable to Tempests auras or any revive abilities like Druid Glyph or FB Signet but it has excellent boon support that got buffed in the June 28th patch. Quote Energy Expulsion: Knockdown duration is no longer increased while tranquil. This skill now grants stability to allies near the tablet when tranquil. This is a massive buff that I think has been overlooked. On Ventari stance the tablet explosion skill now gives 3 stacks of stab with an ~8 second duration in Ministrel's gear. It's easy to chain cast and you give healing + cleansing + resistance while you do it so it's very viable to do so. So now in terms of boon support Vindicator can give high uptime of group Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Stability and Vigor. Post nerf gameplay; it's still great support. Edited July 8, 2023 by Soilder.3607 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryDude.1572 Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 The only thing they need to buff is energy sources cause they straight up butchered all of them. No , they couldn't leave alone 1 source , they had to NERF energy swap trait, vigor duration, tree song energy per cleanse, salvation bottom GM trait , retribution trait.... On a spec that heals and cleanses via dodge Obviously it doesn't need to go to degen release lvls, but ATM we use dodge food and stamina sigils kitten's rediculus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekey.5084 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 As a boon sharer, vindicator can do a very good job. It can heal as well, but there are some obvious limitations. Though yeah, you can offer actually decent offensive and deffensive support as a vindicator in the form of many boons (not as many ss herald), and usin saint viktor, dwarf and/or centaur, you can heal quite decently (not saying you couln't do better choosing something else,thpugh and people can be very salty even when they don't know what you have to offer, so you may want to choose carefully) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 On 7/4/2023 at 6:58 AM, Virdo.1540 said: With urn upkeep being freaking 7 , they could easily remove the self-harm and no-heal-incoming debuff ... so it could be worth paying attention to It's -7 because otherwise you could spec stats to have absurd afk potential by stacking healing and vitality together in WvW. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said: It's -7 because otherwise you could spec stats to have absurd afk potential by stacking healing and vitality together in WvW. 2 revs in a group, urn and jalis stacked up together imagine no e-degen plus the other damage reducer goodies its kinda forgiving. @Soilder.3607 i just dont like the amount of jump spam a player has to do lol, actually i hate the Vindicator jump :) Edited July 11, 2023 by Aeolus.3615 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guybrush.4762 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) Heal vindicator is still strong (even if it is a bit boring to play in my opinion but your mileage may vary). A few influential players in my WvW server even argue that the build stand a fair bit above other supports... and not by a little, they really love the build. I disagree with them on the specific place of support builds (especially about Tempest ; they think it is out of the meta and push people away from it and toward vindi instead) but we both agree that support Vindicator bring a lot of value to a squad. While it is true that it only does healing, resistance and projectile reflect really well (other aspects are meh at best)... but oh boy does it crush the competition for those three things and still does after the patch. To be fair I think druid is the better rounded build right now but I guess it all depend on what you value and why. Edited July 22, 2023 by Guybrush.4762 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daoyun.3157 Posted July 12, 2023 Author Share Posted July 12, 2023 On 7/7/2023 at 5:38 PM, Soilder.3607 said: The amount of power healing heal vindicator could do in combination with its barrier output was overpowered. No other support came close, not even Druid which is an astounding healer in itself. The only thing I disagree with in these nerfs is removing some condition cleanse from Tree Song; Vindicators already cannot match Druids or Tempests in condition cleansing output, though they still have decent cleansing output. Support Vindicator doesn't have any unique utility comparable to Tempests auras or any revive abilities like Druid Glyph or FB Signet but it has excellent boon support that got buffed in the June 28th patch. This is a massive buff that I think has been overlooked. On Ventari stance the tablet explosion skill now gives 3 stacks of stab with an ~8 second duration in Ministrel's gear. It's easy to chain cast and you give healing + cleansing + resistance while you do it so it's very viable to do so. So now in terms of boon support Vindicator can give high uptime of group Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Stability and Vigor. Post nerf gameplay; it's still great support. I haven't overlooked the stability they added to Ventari, and it's a nice addition, but the problem is every Ventari skill consumes a lot of energy plus Energy Expulsion takes 35 energy. Uptime of stability wouldn't be that great because you have to use Energy Expulsion very carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Guybrush.4762 said: Heal vindicator is still strong (even if it is a bit boring to play in my opinion but your mileage may vary). A few influential players in my WvW server even argue that the build stand a fair bit above other supports... and not by a little, they really love the build. I disagree with them on the specific place of support builds and I especially disagree with them about Tempest current position ; long story short they think it is out of the meta and they are pushing people away form it and toward Vindi instead. It is true that support Vindicator only does healing, resistance and projectile reflect really well (other aspects are meh at best) but oh boy does it crush the competition for those three things and still does after the patch. To be fair I think druid is the better rounded build right now but I guess it all depend on what you value and why. you forgot condi cleanse can be really decent with the vindi leaps and salvation trait, since u can make it to be spamable and ur also healing and applying barrier(anet and the spam game..), there's also stability on jalis (screw stab on ventari lol that's Anet catering the most idiotic players that QQ when they cant have access to all boons in the same build). Edited July 12, 2023 by Aeolus.3615 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guybrush.4762 Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said: you forgot condi cleanse can be really decent with the vindi leaps and salvation trait, since u can make it to be spamable and ur also healing and applying barrier(anet and the spam game..), there's also stability on jalis (screw stab on ventari lol that's Anet catering the most idiotic players that QQ when they cant have access to all boons in the same build). To put some figures into that, when I compare the good vindi and the good Tempest of my server : condi cleanse on Vindicator appears to be roughly 33% below Tempest. The trick is, your resistance take care of non-damaging condition and the damaging ones are not really an issue in zerg vs zerg (except poison with the nasty healing reduction). So yeah, Vindi can afford to cleanse less even though it can be sweaty at some specific time (aka the "oh no! My resistance got boon striped." type of scenario). But yeah, long story short : Vindi heal is strong in the current meta even post nerf ! Edited July 13, 2023 by Guybrush.4762 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 13, 2023 Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, Guybrush.4762 said: To put some figures into that, when I compare the good vindi and the good Tempest of my server : condi cleanse on Vindicator appears to be roughly 33% below Tempest. The trick is, your resistance take care of non-damaging condition and the damaging ones are not really an issue in zerg vs zerg (except poison with the nasty healing reduction). So yeah, Vindi can afford to cleanse less even though it can be sweaty at some specific time (aka the "oh no! My resistance got boon striped." type of scenario). But yeah, long story short : Vindi heal is strong in the current meta even post nerf ! They indeed are Anet nerfed heals on herald over time more than on vindi actually over 2k healing power and my herald cant touch even similiar values while when on vindi on misntrell wich has less healing power stats than the stats i use lol on my herald build. Even regen on vindicator is superior., i guess Anet like to carry minstrell vindicators more lol... Edited July 13, 2023 by Aeolus.3615 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angesombre.4630 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 Even if Vindicator is currently part of the wvw meta, I hope it won't suffer too much nerfing, because eventually there won't be much left, given that it's one of the most nerfed classes in a short space of time. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) On 7/14/2023 at 6:25 AM, Angesombre.4630 said: Even if Vindicator is currently part of the wvw meta, I hope it won't suffer too much nerfing, because eventually there won't be much left, given that it's one of the most nerfed classes in a short space of time. IF players continue just to play ONLY minstrell Vindicator Anet m8 touch it soon or later, but lets see if the new weapons will open more stable builds, since vindicator is the top 3 healing builds and its used just for that but it deppends the vision Anet had for it at the end. Altough i would not mind Anet do remove minstrellamers stats from game would be a huge QOL change rather than see Anet nerfing Vindicator. Edited July 15, 2023 by Aeolus.3615 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vennyhedgie.5369 Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 Support vindicator in PvE lasted a whole 2 months, it died the moment they removed alacrity from base revenant. I will always love their logic of Let's kill alacrity Herald and Alacrity Vindicator to give you... Quickness herald. So we lost 2 builds to get 1 back. Kudos, brilliant design. PS: Alacrity renegade would've died too if it didn't have alacrity already built in on its kit. So it would've been a 3 loss for a 1 gain. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy.3728 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Rev is my favourite class and wvw my favourite mode and it'd be nice to play something else but a direct offensive setup for a change (have a berserker Herald and condi Renegade) and I wanted to use my 3rd equipment slot for Vindi (preferred support) but after reading here I'm uncertain. I don't want to invest in new equipment just to be told to switch to something else in a zerg/squad later :s So, should I invest in just another offensive setup or is support Vindi still worth it in an organised squad? Sth like this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Vindicator_-_Ventari_Vindicator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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