DPS power creep is out of control - all content before IBS dies too fast to even be remotely fun

[Jedrik.3109]

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Edited July 11, 2023 by Jedrik.3109

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

14 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can you please buff the HP values of all mobs before IBS by at least 50%?

If I play Vindicator, I jump on mobs and they die to my jump. That isn't fun, if I wanted to play a mobile auto-battler I'd turn my phone on and do it.

For a game that prides itself on "no gear progression" and "no power progression", the amount of power creep is absurd and invalidates all the old content. This game is turning into "Play the expac" just like themepark MMO's, why?

You're not wrong, but you're rarely going to get people to side you on this. People are too blinded by their power fantasy to even consider the balance of the game. If you see a guardian dealing 100k dps in this game, despite how unhealthy it is in this game, you won't see guardians complaining about it.

We already given every class quickness and alac, which contribute to the power creep. We have to give core class their elite weapon. The only excuse I hear is this bs facade where we need to give class "More options."

[anbujackson.9564]

Sorry but decreasing your own power by equipping sub optimal gear is a pretty lame argument. I dont know what the people are thinking who write this. 

Also you cant keep balancing around the constant cries of more buffs or more easier damage for the casual playerbase because they cant seem to press more than 2 buttons. Like seriously? Wasnt the power mech era bs enough? You want more of that and worse?

[Leo G.4501]

My best piece of advice is, stop being such a try-hard. Dial back your build, use an unorthodox weapon, mess around with support utilities, don't focus on the best rotation and interact with stuff. When was the last event you used improvised weapons you pick up? The best analogy I can think of is sword fighting but holding the sword in my left hand even though I'm right hand out how season PvP players come at me with my WvW build logic. 

There's a time and a place to be try-hard. Although, if you have fun trouncing things being a try-hard in PvE, at least throw a few auto-attacks instead so I can get to the dang mob to tag it. You don't need 25 stacks of might and quickness to fight the Choya Pinata. 

[Echostorm.9143]

No, only tryhards derive some sick pleasure needing to perform 40 step rotations perfectly in order to kill a baby spider.  Anet is constantly nerfing our classes enough as it is, don't encourage them.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

there's several ongoing problems which haven't been solved:

- skyrocketing damage levels (yes, even for new players as core weapons have been strengthened alot, fury got buffed, etc.). its currently to the point where one player is on part with an entire party from game launch, evident by being able to solo explorable dungeons without skips.

- poor design of older encounters, that required no cleanses, no reflects, no stability, no boonstrips, and so on. even from heart of thorns onward, these things help but aren't strictly required and you can still put most of your kit into damage.

- extremely bad downscaling that doesn't account for benefits from traitlines etc. so veterans wreck everything before newer players can get to it, and you have to intentionally destroy your own power level if you intend to play with friends who are joining the game.

 

if you look at the competitive modes, you'll see that builds are alot more balanced as players have to actually build a decent kit.

 

this results in the overall impression that powercreep is out of control, and it probably is. instead of buffing the health of all enemies in the game though, just reducing the damage scaling of all players by 33% (like they did in wvw and pvp) would do alot to reel in the creep, and if only applied to damage scaling and not base damage this would leave "junk yard" builds largely unaffected as they don't make skilled use of damage scaling anyway.

 

we should also look at stacking all boons in intensity (like how might works) rather than duration, e.g 1% per stack of alacrity.

Edited July 11, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Batalix.2873]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

4-stat gear is "stronger" in that it has more stats, sure, but only two of those sets have stronger offensive capabilities (numerically).

In general a lot of the expansion prefixes are preferred for various roles, not just power. Especially Marshal's, Minstrel's, Plaguedoctor's, and Ritualist's.

[Batalix.2873]

54 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

My best piece of advice is, stop being such a try-hard. Dial back your build, use an unorthodox weapon, mess around with support utilities, don't focus on the best rotation and interact with stuff. When was the last event you used improvised weapons you pick up? The best analogy I can think of is sword fighting but holding the sword in my left hand even though I'm right hand out how season PvP players come at me with my WvW build logic. 

There's a time and a place to be try-hard. Although, if you have fun trouncing things being a try-hard in PvE, at least throw a few auto-attacks instead so I can get to the dang mob to tag it. You don't need 25 stacks of might and quickness to fight the Choya Pinata. 

This is definitely part of the proper attitude, simply enjoy the game meta be damned.

But also ANet just needs to stop creeping every profession's numbers. We've seen a solid 5k-7k increase in top DPS benches over the past couple of years, and that's not even including how most of the utility and support classes have been brought up even further to "level" the playing field.

And yeah benches are only for leet game breaking strategists, but the number behind it has still tangibly affected the DPS floor of these classes too. Mouth of Mordremoth now usually dies before it even gets into the first real phase. Most champs in Dragonfall and Drizzlewood melt in thirty seconds or less if you don't keep up with the commander. Open world mobs and HP bosses are increasingly trivialized.

It's difficult to tell where the line should be, but seeing things already slipping obviously is cause for concern. I don't really care to play a game where I mostly just mow down enemies in one-two shots on any open world map, even with suboptimal builds. I don't really care to play a game full of Mech and Virt apologists raving about how "good" they are either.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Sorry but decreasing your own power by equipping sub optimal gear is a pretty lame argument. I dont know what the people are thinking who write this. 

Also you cant keep balancing around the constant cries of more buffs or more easier damage for the casual playerbase because they cant seem to press more than 2 buttons. Like seriously? Wasnt the power mech era bs enough? You want more of that and worse?

Well. If someone's complaint is that they find it too easy to kill mobs... Then why isn't it reasonable to suggest that they make it harder for themselves so they can have more fun?

The Base game enemies could definitely be buffed up. But there is already a massive power jump going into the Expansion zones. I think it would be healthy for the base game open world to lead into expansion content better instead of being like climbing a cliff like it currently is.

 

There's no need to make the Expansion zones even more inaccessible for new players. You shouldn't need find a group just to walk from one waypoint to another... Which is what I would have had to do if the Expansion open world monsters were much tougher when I got to Lvl 80 and started exploring them.

 

The solution is to reign in the power creep not to make the game less accessible for newer players.

[Leo G.4501]

The funny thing is, I still remember when people complained about the CC in Orr being too much and they dialed back the mobs. I want to say they may have done similar in HoT but my memory could just be tricking me.

Wouldn't the answer be to make the mobs "harder"? Not just bigger HP sponges...

[Batalix.2873]

16 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

The funny thing is, I still remember when people complained about the CC in Orr being too much and they dialed back the mobs. I want to say they may have done similar in HoT but my memory could just be tricking me.

Wouldn't the answer be to make the mobs "harder"? Not just bigger HP sponges...

Obviously the answer has many angles that need addressing, but at minimum if class numbers go up, then mob numbers should also go up.

[Leo G.4501]

15 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

Yep. Any response not validating thier view gets a confused emoji. This entire forum is like this. Giant echo chamber of unreasonable takes and confused emoji. 

Oh relax. We used to have thumbs down emojis too but people like you complained. Having people interact with your post isn't a bad thing but if it triggers you, I think there's an option to hide them.

[Jedrik.3109]

14 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Jedrik.3109

[anbujackson.9564]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Well. If someone's complaint is that they find it too easy to kill mobs... Then why isn't it reasonable to suggest that they make it harder for themselves so they can have more fun?

The Base game enemies could definitely be buffed up. But there is already a massive power jump going into the Expansion zones. I think it would be healthy for the base game open world to lead into expansion content better instead of being like climbing a cliff like it currently is.

 

There's no need to make the Expansion zones even more inaccessible for new players. You shouldn't need find a group just to walk from one waypoint to another... Which is what I would have had to do if the Expansion open world monsters were much tougher when I got to Lvl 80 and started exploring them.

 

The solution is to reign in the power creep not to make the game less accessible for newer players.

Gimping yourself is not fun. And the way loadouts work with legendary gear would make it also incredibly annoying. 

I get your point, I really do. But that wont make it any better. 

Why exactly does everything need to be so easy and straightforward for new players? I keep seeing and hearing this and it irritates me. Whats the point in playing a game if it holds my hand so much? A part of the fun is to experience new stuff, learn from it, adept. People used to experience HoT in much worse conditions (core only, no mounts, weaker classes overall, less potential boons and so on). Why is that so bad now? And yeah about the requirement of walking around as a group.. Its a MMO after all. I dont see this as a bad thing. Hero challenge points in HoT were/partly still are difficult.

The zones in the expansions  have harder mobs sure, but navigating through them is a learning experience. It isnt really hard because of the enemies only but because of the complexity of the maps in general, at least in HoT. Exploring the map while having the danger of tough mobs around the corner that you cant 1/2 tap makes it enjoyable. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[Loboling.5293]

It's almost like the old world is mostly made for levels 1-79. Just take off some of your exotics and ascendeds and replace them with masterwork and fine items. Use low level weapons and bang, open world is more fun again. 

[Batalix.2873]

17 minutes ago, Loboling.5293 said:

It's almost like the old world is mostly made for levels 1-79. Just take off some of your exotics and ascendeds and replace them with masterwork and fine items. Use low level weapons and bang, open world is more fun again. 

Players shouldn't have to deliberately handicap themselves to experience nontrivial content.

Not to mention that specific suggestion just encourages even more inventory bloat in a game with an already questionable gear/bags system.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

33 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Gimping yourself is not fun. And the way loadouts work with legendary gear would make it also incredibly annoying. 

I get your point, I really do. But that wont make it any better. 

Why exactly does everything need to be so easy and straightforward for new players? I keep seeing and hearing this and it irritates me. Whats the point in playing a game if it holds my hand so much? A part of the fun is to experience new stuff, learn from it, adept. People used to experience HoT in much worse conditions (core only, no mounts, weaker classes overall, less potential boons and so on). Why is that so bad now? And yeah about the requirement of walking around as a group.. Its a MMO after all. I dont see this as a bad thing. Hero challenge points in HoT were/partly still are difficult.

The zones in the expansions  have harder mobs sure, but navigating through them is a learning experience. It isnt really hard because of the enemies only but because of the complexity of the maps in general, at least in HoT. Exploring the map while having the danger of tough mobs around the corner that you cant 1/2 tap makes it enjoyable. 

As I said in my post. The Base game difficulty should be increased. I'm not saying that everything should be a cake walk throughout the entire game. 

Everything shouldn't be doable from the get go. Players shouldn't be able to go solo champion bosses from day one.

But conversely it shouldn't take end game raiding gear and training just to kill a random Chak in the open world.

 

There are plenty of challenges that are available in the game once you reach the end game state. 

Every single trash monster in the open world shouldn't be considered to be a group level challenge.

 

Yes it's a MMO. But that doesn't mean that you should have to wait to fill up a group just to step foot outside of town.

Sure make Hero Points challenging. Make Champions hard. 

Make these untenable for solo players. But the random trash while traveling the open map shouldn't require top 10% DPS just to grind through.

[Leo G.4501]

Just now, Batalix.2873 said:

Players shouldn't have to deliberately handicap themselves to experience nontrivial content.

Not to mention that specific suggestion just encourages even more inventory bloat in a game with an already questionable gear/bags system.

The alternate perspective is, people complained that they put in hundreds of hours to upgrade their gear and are spending gold on more expensive consumables and should feel powerful like other MMOs where they can cough at a mob and kill it.

Compromises are a good option. You're going to force new players to fight bigger HP sponges just so your leet character gets to push a few more buttons in their rotation when they don't outright bypass the mobs on mounts or take 2/3 of a group's hp with dismount skills and neatly group them for slaughter?  Sounds kinda selfish to me. 

[Loboling.5293]

6 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Players shouldn't have to deliberately handicap themselves to experience nontrivial content.

Not to mention that specific suggestion just encourages even more inventory bloat in a game with an already questionable gear/bags system.

If you don't like being too strong for content you can always take off some layers. Your build is optimized for lategame zones, while I could totally understand your worries if we didn't have full control of our power levels, but since a bad build is doing about 5-8kdps vs a good build doing 40kdps, you could just change up your traits to focus on group support when in the open world. Again, on my ranger when I play with newer players, I play with gear and builds with very little damage and lots of support. 

Look, I'm not against your suggestion, but I find in solo self found for new characters, the open world is not trivial. If they implement anything like this, it should be focused ONLY on level 80 scaling in lower level zones. And I'd only suggest a 20% maximum damage reduction. Frankly, if you can scale you damage and survivability as much as you can, you should do that to enjoy the content you want to do. Without making the content difficult for new players. They don't have the experience you do, don't know metabattle or snowcrows. They don't know what power or condition damage do yet. 1-79 is for learning the game. It should remain that way. 

But at level 80 with an optimized build, ya you just one shot everything in core tyria. There I prefer to play RP builds around a theme and my builds are usually much weaker than if I tried to optimize damage only. But when I want to just plow through content, I'll put on a real build and just smack kitten. 

TLDR: If you do anything like this, make it only for level 80 characters. Another option would be to give players a handicap slider, if inventory if an issue. It lowers your damage and raises enemy damage. They use this or difficulty sliders on many games. It would work fine here for core tyria, although I imagine it won't get used much. 

[Riba.3271]

I agree because most fun I ever had was release of HoT without elite spec available and before they nerfed all the mobs to deal no damage and have much less hitpoints. On the other hand new players deal 1/4th of damage of veterans. I would say bosses have perfect amount of HP for first clear. Anyways the devs will always cater casuals so I would recommend to just try new builds or explore other games for PvE content you don't fully know yet. I would recommend Monster Hunter: World or Assassins Greed Odyssey (since other mmos are terrible). GW2 PvE just isn't infinitely repeatable. (Or join us in WvW)

Edited July 12, 2023 by Riba.3271

[FrancisN.9276]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:43 PM, borgs.6103 said:

I'd rather have mobs evade attacks, give themselves Protection and Resolution, and apply Immobilize and Weakness to players. 

Fun times will be had.

I agree with this as well. This can render pure dps build without sustain/condi cleanse much more risky and slow down the fights without making them tedious. Also, players may have to mix gears for some toughness/vitality to balance out their playstyle, so some prefixes may actually have their use ingame.

Edited July 12, 2023 by FrancisN.9276

[Leo G.4501]

8 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said:

I agree with this as well. This can render pure dps build without sustain/condi cleanse much more risky and slow down the fights without making them tedious. Also, players may have to mix gears for some toughness/vitality to balance out their playstyle, so some prefixes may actually have their use ingame.

This is bringing back memories of the old forums. People complained that glass built characters couldn't compete in tougher areas because of lack of active defense and sustain, making rounder build better. Over time, I think the amount of active defences and sustain has increased along with player skills and lowering mob difficulty in 80 zones.

The prevalence of low intensity builds too, is interesting. I wonder what would be considered LI back during HoT. Maybe a phantasm build? But anyway, I'm not against alteration of 80 zones for challenge and danger, but the low level areas lol leave them be. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

I wonder what would be considered LI back during HoT.

For what content? For OW it was MM Reaper. For Fractals it was Condi Reaper (until it got nerfed) - or 4x Condi Reaper + 1x Druid setup. For Raids it probably was double shortbow condi ranger.

[Kozumi.5816]

Looks like SotO is going to power creep the DPS even further.

I don't know if this game can handle 45k+ dps specs ;/

[Gaiawolf.8261]

I just consider the core game to be the learning curve. Once you are level 80 and have access to endgame gear, of course the lower level content is going to be easier. Leveling players don't have full trait lines, 4-stat gear, espec mechanics, and fully specced build synergies while still working through core content. If you want the challenge that new players face during that content, you're going to have to dump those advantages. The other option is to give new players endgame gear and profession features right at level 1 and expect them to know what to do with all of it. They won't. They'd feel overwhelmed. 

It would be a design nightmare to properly nerf endgame gear, traits, mechanics, and all the synergies players have built with those options when they enter lower level zones, but I supposed it could be done in theory.