What do you think about SPB?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

My brother in Christ, you don't get it. Having fewer boons means that stability on Spellbreaker is easier to corrupt and initiate a fear chain on. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

spellbreaker doesn't deserve boons

 

It's refreshing to see peepos so mask-off about their disgust at easy telegraph melee classes ❤️ 

 

Enough of the subtle, sheepish phrasing like "no counterplay" or "difficult to focus in a teamfight", just say it with your whole chest "this class doesn't deserve to hit me even once"

✊

Edited July 21, 2023 by GeneralBM.5781

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

It's refreshing to see peepos so mask-off about their disgust at easy telegraph melee classes ❤️ 

 

Enough of the subtle, sheepish phrasing like "no counterplay" or "difficult to focus in a teamfight", just say it with your whole chest "this class doesn't deserve to hit me even once"

✊

SPB CC+other dps CC/IMMOBS+ 0 deminished returns = spam the same target over and over until it dies, or manedges to escape >> swap target, rinse and repeat. Brainded gameplay.

 

But keep on convincing yourself this is next level stuff, worthy of being showered in boons.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Lonecap.4105]

6 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

SPB CC+other dps CC/IMMOBS+ 0 deminished returns = spam the same target over and over until it dies, or manedges to escape >> swap target, rinse and repeat. Brainded gameplay.

 

But keep on convincing yourself this is next level stuff, worthy of being showered in boons.

Try the build in question and record some gameplay for us. Show us how incredibly powerful it is in a match.

[vilesoldier.9826]

14 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

SPB CC+other dps CC/IMMOBS+ 0 deminished returns = spam the same target over and over until it dies, or manedges to escape >> swap target, rinse and repeat. Brainded gameplay.

 

But keep on convincing yourself this is next level stuff, worthy of being showered in boons.

 

we're with you, brother!

✊

[Yerlock.4678]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:51 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

i liked str spellbreaker more than defense
i don't like the defense rework at all even tho warrior has no real way to deal with blind spam without it 😕

If they buffed Featherfoot Grace to 25 second cd and gave it resolution, and also buffed Hp for might makes right GM in strength I think the strength line could be viable again.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

15 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

If they buffed Featherfoot Grace to 25 second cd and gave it resolution, and also buffed Hp for might makes right GM in strength I think the strength line could be viable again.

Reducing the CD on Brave Stride and/or changing the bleed on Body Blow to be strike damage instead as well.

[Yerlock.4678]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Reducing the CD on Brave Stride and/or changing the bleed on Body Blow to be strike damage instead as well.

Yeah for sure, brave stride needs more love also. Body blow needs either more bleed or weakness

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Id rather fight condi cata than a buffed SPB, as any class.

kitten that's crazy, you really think you'll convince any warriors with a position like that?

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

spellbreaker doesn't deserve boons with its current CC potential anyway

kitten that's crazy, you really think you'll convince any warriors with a position like that? Would you say the same about Catalyst?

Quote

Power Cata

Written in Stone/Elemental Epitome and Staunch Auras made Catalysts basically immune to CC for a period of time. More people on this game that play PVP disliked that interaction.

Connect the dots.

Consider the implications of what you want, and consider that the advantage catalysts had, even though their class was mechanically complex, led to players not wanting to interact with it.

If you saw nothing wrong with stability spam (even on power cata), but see something wrong with cc spam, this conversation is over. 

Quote

Warrior has range issues, which is a limitation, but once in range, it couldn't be more casual on a mechanics level of what you need to do (this is dodging aside). 

Getting into range on warrior with a hammer is an expression of skill, especially if your opponent can nuke you from across the map. Them bonking you on the head with the hammer is the reward for (and a continuation of) that skill expression. There is literally nothing stopping you from getting out of the way before it hits you that the warrior controls, and if there is that is a result of mismanagement on your end. 

10 hours ago, XxsdgxX.8109 said:

What these people never understand is that their specs would actually get huge buffs and reworks if they were to delete current stealth (or any other noninteractive mechanic).

Prove it. Name a "noninteractive mechanic" and how you would buff the class that depends on that mechanic if you were to remove it. If you don't nail it on the first attempt keep in mind that devs will probably be more awkward at balancing than you and will probably need several attempts to reach an appropriate balancing direction.

Methinks you trust the devs too much to know their overarching mechanic systems. 

Quote

Stealth aka stop playing and start guessing.

Fighting a player in stealth isnt guessing if you know what buttons they have available to press and how much stealth they just gained from the last combo they did, the information about each is readily available by either playing the class yourself or checking the wiki.

If a player x goes (poof) in black powder, a low effort player will go "Welp guess I cant do anything < _ > " and anyone that has a shred of thief playtime or thief experience will go "That thief has about 3 seconds to hit me with their stealth attack.

If it's (pistol): I'll put myself behind this pillar or block/dodge at the 2 second mark. if they dont appear then they chained their stealth and spent 9-12 init to do that, so if I interrupt them when they appear they have to either react to it or burn a stunbreak

IF it's (dagger): "Thief is probably coming in for a backstab, so I'm gonna pivot to increase the chances they get a facestab and do nothing. if I see shadow shot ill dodge."

etc. Just because you think you need to stop playing the game, or that guessing isn't part of playing the game doesn't mean it's true. Fighting blind (vs a stealthed player) is just as entertaining to me as fighting a player I can see the whole time. 

But that's digression. We can talk about that in a thief thread 😄 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

Try the build in question and record some gameplay for us. Show us how incredibly powerful it is in a match.

@Flowki.7194 Seconded. People picked up cata pretty fast despite its number of buttons but seem to have difficulty playing spellbreaker at a high level. Show us why it's broken. 

[Flowki.7194]

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

kitten that's crazy, you really think you'll convince any warriors with a position like that?

kitten that's crazy, you really think you'll convince any warriors with a position like that? Would you say the same about Catalyst?

Written in Stone/Elemental Epitome and Staunch Auras made Catalysts basically immune to CC for a period of time. More people on this game that play PVP disliked that interaction.

Connect the dots.

Consider the implications of what you want, and consider that the advantage catalysts had, even though their class was mechanically complex, led to players not wanting to interact with it.

If you saw nothing wrong with stability spam (even on power cata), but see something wrong with cc spam, this conversation is over. 

Getting into range on warrior with a hammer is an expression of skill, especially if your opponent can nuke you from across the map. Them bonking you on the head with the hammer is the reward for (and a continuation of) that skill expression. There is literally nothing stopping you from getting out of the way before it hits you that the warrior controls, and if there is that is a result of mismanagement on your end. 

Prove it. Name a "noninteractive mechanic" and how you would buff the class that depends on that mechanic if you were to remove it. If you don't nail it on the first attempt keep in mind that devs will probably be more awkward at balancing than you and will probably need several attempts to reach an appropriate balancing direction.

Methinks you trust the devs too much to know their overarching mechanic systems. 

Fighting a player in stealth isnt guessing if you know what buttons they have available to press and how much stealth they just gained from the last combo they did, the information about each is readily available by either playing the class yourself or checking the wiki.

If a player x goes (poof) in black powder, a low effort player will go "Welp guess I cant do anything < _ > " and anyone that has a shred of thief playtime or thief experience will go "That thief has about 3 seconds to hit me with their stealth attack.

If it's (pistol): I'll put myself behind this pillar or block/dodge at the 2 second mark. if they dont appear then they chained their stealth and spent 9-12 init to do that, so if I interrupt them when they appear they have to either react to it or burn a stunbreak

IF it's (dagger): "Thief is probably coming in for a backstab, so I'm gonna pivot to increase the chances they get a facestab and do nothing. if I see shadow shot ill dodge."

etc. Just because you think you need to stop playing the game, or that guessing isn't part of playing the game doesn't mean it's true. Fighting blind (vs a stealthed player) is just as entertaining to me as fighting a player I can see the whole time. 

But that's digression. We can talk about that in a thief thread 😄 

 

 

 

 

Its like this for me. Stuns are the cheapest form of killing another player. However, many burst specs are pretty much based around having to stun something to lay down damage. Stability is the counter to stuns, but many specs have easy access to it (condi cata most of all). A cheap stability boon to counter a cheap stun. The issue is, many dps classes need a stun to get kills, but stuns are a cheap way of getting kills. You see the problem?

 

WOW balanced this better, becuase you actaully needed to coordinate burst and CC with multiple people. In gw1, it only takes a single player 3 seconds to kill most specs, with 1 stun (unless stability/break). People barely work together in this game, in ranked.. becuase its 80% pugs, but when you do get like minded dps/SPB, they are a nightmare, and ''teamwork'' doesn't justify it. The damage in this game is just too high for a class like SPB to run around being perma viable.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Stuns are the cheapest form of killing another player.

 

the cheapest?

The world of gw2 pvp is so much darker than stuns. So, so much darker.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

31 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The issue is, many dps classes need a stun to get kills, but stuns are a cheap way of getting kills. You see the problem?

Apologies for paring down your post, I will address the rest in a bit, but I want to point to this and say agreed, at least in part.

But I assure you that if the classes you don't want locking you down did direct damage instead (because they need the stuns to do damage, and if you took the stuns you'd need to replace it with damage either by frequency or through utility that makes it easier to stick to or remove defenses from an opponent) you would die faster than you would currently. The underlying issue (you not avoiding the skills that would put you into a prone position to begin with) isn't resolved. Instead of getting disabled and having to watch yourself lose HP, you'd just lose the hp. You may consider it cheap, but since stuns do peanuts at the moment, you have multiple opportunities to respond or be saved by a teammate right now.

I definitely see how the stun chaining can be annoying. but given the scenario arises from people not dodging or respecting the warrior holding a hammer to begin with, do you really want less stun in return for more direct damage from the warrior? We have a currently running thread about how berserker hits too much already (even though that's also wrong, for much the same reason).

The argument also wouldn't change. We would be right back here going "just dodge it" to "I got hit by 6k from backbreaker even though the warrior wound up in my face and I had like 3 buttons to press to not let that hit me". I'd rather have a "The stun does 6 damage and you can dodge it AND you can stunbreak out of it" argument, than have to justify why skill X needs to hit this hard, skill Y needs to hit that hard, and eventually be balanced back into unviability because people refuse to not get hit by a telegraphed move and then have opinions about it after the fact. I've seen that latter case happen at least 3 times for warrior. I'd like there to not be repeats of history.

This isnt WoW. It's not a (two players face each other and the best numbers win). Positioning is important, as is knowing how to avoid being flanked.

Pools open for you to try hammer spellbreaker (or whatever spellbreaker flavor is causing you angst) still, btw. I assure you the first couple dozen times you get evaded by someone paying attention to you then nuked by people who see what you're trying to do will temper your opinion. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Myror.7521]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 correction...... im a whole Server and a Game mode away xD

[Hotride.2187]

10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Im not amzing at the game, but the effort to reward of warrior (and a fair few specs in the game) IMO is too much, despite its lower performance over other specs. For example, power cata gets a lot of heat, and everybody wants to pretend its easy.

ahahaha

I had to play war for a few hundred hours before I got the spb/core gameplay down, so that I had a chance vs your average g3 player that drops all abilities on e.g. DH and gets a kill out of it.

Go play some spb before you tell how power cata is harder to play. When everything you do gets dodged or just walked away from or the game itself shits the bed, and you cant land a single ability (much less effectively stunlock someone), you will run back to power cata with all its ranged and massive aoe fire and forget abilities.

Seriously, go play spb in a plat game. This thread would not have existed if you had.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hotride.2187

[Avatar.3568]

On 7/20/2023 at 9:59 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Lighter.5631 knows what he's doing. I can attest to that personally, and I get why he thinks spellbreaker is bad. I don't agree with him across the board on that, but I can see the angle of his argument.

@gmmg.9210 also knows what he's doing, and has not been playing spellbreaker frequently as of late (from my light observation, could be wrong on that.). Maybe he has an opinion on this.

@CalmTheStorm.2364 is also a knower, on the off-tank side.

 

There's a few others but idk if they are mains / I have yet to fight them in game/I havent put their in game characters to a forum name/I have a 5 shoutout per post policy. 

@Multicolorhipster.9751 is probably a hammerbreaker main and can use hammer well.

@Avatar.3568 I have no idea, but can appropriately swing a greatsword.

 

 

 

thx for mentioning me, but i am a actually a Ranger main, my warrior is just a side project

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Avatar.3568 said:

thx for mentioning me, but i am a actually a Ranger main, my warrior is just a side project

You're welcome anytime over in the warrior side of the house. Horse Stance practice is led by @oscuro.9720 Thursdays at 7am eastern.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Azure The Heartless.3261  @Lan Deathrider.5910

❤️🙏

I prefer a humble class grounded in reality, what is good and true and hammerbreaker provides.

Its probably not the best setup for warrior and I'm not even that good with it really, but I never played to win, I played to waste the time of the wintraders, and there is no better way to chastise the wicked than to stunlock them for up to 30 seconds straight. SPB over the other classes capable of doing the same thing because SPB has lots of boon removal to get rid of stab.

Joy is wanton. Duty is purpose. Once DuoQ goes; if it goes, the wintrader shall reap a bitter harvest of vengeance and stagnation.

[Flowki.7194]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:25 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Apologies for paring down your post, I will address the rest in a bit, but I want to point to this and say agreed, at least in part.

But I assure you that if the classes you don't want locking you down did direct damage instead (because they need the stuns to do damage, and if you took the stuns you'd need to replace it with damage either by frequency or through utility that makes it easier to stick to or remove defenses from an opponent) you would die faster than you would currently. The underlying issue (you not avoiding the skills that would put you into a prone position to begin with) isn't resolved. Instead of getting disabled and having to watch yourself lose HP, you'd just lose the hp. You may consider it cheap, but since stuns do peanuts at the moment, you have multiple opportunities to respond or be saved by a teammate right now.

I definitely see how the stun chaining can be annoying. but given the scenario arises from people not dodging or respecting the warrior holding a hammer to begin with, do you really want less stun in return for more direct damage from the warrior? We have a currently running thread about how berserker hits too much already (even though that's also wrong, for much the same reason).

The argument also wouldn't change. We would be right back here going "just dodge it" to "I got hit by 6k from backbreaker even though the warrior wound up in my face and I had like 3 buttons to press to not let that hit me". I'd rather have a "The stun does 6 damage and you can dodge it AND you can stunbreak out of it" argument, than have to justify why skill X needs to hit this hard, skill Y needs to hit that hard, and eventually be balanced back into unviability because people refuse to not get hit by a telegraphed move and then have opinions about it after the fact. I've seen that latter case happen at least 3 times for warrior. I'd like there to not be repeats of history.

This isnt WoW. It's not a (two players face each other and the best numbers win). Positioning is important, as is knowing how to avoid being flanked.

Pools open for you to try hammer spellbreaker (or whatever spellbreaker flavor is causing you angst) still, btw. I assure you the first couple dozen times you get evaded by someone paying attention to you then nuked by people who see what you're trying to do will temper your opinion. 

 

I would prefere less stuns in the game, and less damage (which may require some mobility nerfs also) so that actual coordinated attacks is what seperates good teams from bad teams, team work should be the ultimate carry. Right now it only takes 2 like minded half decent players to dominate the other team, and they don't even have to be duo, or plat. But this is also begining to leach into the currently innefective matchmaking system, so lets leave it as that.

 

The way ranked has felt to me for the past month or so is if you are not being jumped from stealth > dodge or die, youre being stunned by xyz class, if youre not stunned youre immobed, if youre not immobed youre dazed (how many dodges/breaks/blocks does one have). That would be a lot more tolerable as said, if not for the amount of faceroll damage in the game. Its no suprise that the game is really just boiling down to high damage+high mobility, or bunker builds. Anybody inbetween those extremes gets slapped about by the over abundence of CC and burst damage, while not having enough mobility to catch and punish that DD/FA/Scrapper for bad plays, and then not enough dps to down the bunker/sustain build. Im speaking in general here, not as any particular spec main.

 

On 7/21/2023 at 9:41 PM, Hotride.2187 said:

ahahaha

I had to play war for a few hundred hours before I got the spb/core gameplay down, so that I had a chance vs your average g3 player that drops all abilities on e.g. DH and gets a kill out of it.

Go play some spb before you tell how power cata is harder to play. When everything you do gets dodged or just walked away from or the game itself shits the bed, and you cant land a single ability (much less effectively stunlock someone), you will run back to power cata with all its ranged and massive aoe fire and forget abilities.

Seriously, go play spb in a plat game. This thread would not have existed if you had.

 

 

I've played SPB manny times, and power cata is simply far harder (yet more rewarding). Again, another player who does not understand the difference between mechanical difficulty, and spec effectiveness.

 

SPB is like 4/10 difficulty, but you get 6/10 reward. Power cata is like 8/10 difficulty, but you got 10/10 reward. Thing is, to get 10/10 reward you have to have 8/10 skill (which I and many power catas do not have). Plainly put, you are better with an average skill level SPB on your team than an average level power cata. Power necro is similar in this way, easier to do well with, but not as effective as power cata. The general game sense things, like when/what to dodge is universal to all specs, you can't count any of that as specific to SPB. For example ''just kite'' is also a skill that many have to know when to use.

 

I still don't get why people act like power cata is easy. I've played a number of specs and power cata is simply the hardest and most punishing I have played so far (chrono and untamed are suppose to be harder, you tell me). I personally don't think DD is hard  in general becuase its mobility and back capping is an easy cop out crutch that can make up for their inability to  +1 properly (although an actual decent +1 DD is ofc more in line with high skill floor). Its a weird spec, low skill floor to just ignore pvp and back cap, but high skill floor to actually pvp properly with it. Also, if you think SPB is so hard, I would offer you to go play rev support, its far more complicated than most other specs, in practice.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Downstate.4697]

45 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

I would prefere less stuns in the game, and less damage (which may require some mobility nerfs also) so that actual coordinated attacks is what seperates good teams from bad teams, team work should be the ultimate carry. Right now it only takes 2 like minded half decent players to dominate the other team, and they don't even have to be duo, or plat. But this is also begining to leach into the currently innefective matchmaking system, so lets leave it as that.

 

The way ranked has felt to me for the past month or so is if you are not being jumped from stealth > dodge or die, youre being stunned by xyz class, if youre not stunned youre immobed, if youre not immobed youre dazed (how many dodges/breaks/blocks does one have). That would be a lot more tolerable as said, if not for the amount of faceroll damage in the game. Its no suprise that the game is really just boiling down to high damage+high mobility, or bunker builds. Anybody inbetween those extremes gets slapped about by the over abundence of CC and burst damage, while not having enough mobility to catch and punish that DD/FA/Scrapper for bad plays, and then not enough dps to down the bunker/sustain build. Im speaking in general here, not as any particular spec main.

 

 

I've played SPB manny times, and power cata is simply far harder (yet more rewarding). Again, another player who does not understand the difference between mechanical difficulty, and spec effectiveness.

 

SPB is like 4/10 difficulty, but you get 6/10 reward. Power cata is like 8/10 difficulty, but you got 10/10 reward. Thing is, to get 10/10 reward you have to have 8/10 skill (which I and many power catas do not have). Plainly put, you are better with an average skill level SPB on your team than an average level power cata. Power necro is similar in this way, easier to do well with, but not as effective as power cata. The general game sense things, like when/what to dodge is universal to all specs, you can't count any of that as specific to SPB. For example ''just kite'' is also a skill that many have to know when to use.

 

I still don't get why people act like power cata is easy. I've played a number of specs and power cata is simply the hardest and most punishing I have played so far (chrono and untamed are suppose to be harder, you tell me). I personally don't think DD is hard  in general becuase its mobility and back capping is an easy cop out crutch that can make up for their inability to  +1 properly (although an actual decent +1 DD is ofc more in line with high skill floor). Its a weird spec, low skill floor to just ignore pvp and back cap, but high skill floor to actually pvp properly with it. Also, if you think SPB is so hard, I would offer you to go play rev support, its far more complicated than most other specs, in practice.

 

You described a meta where ele thrives.

You are also asking for nerfs to things that are good into ele.

I am also an ele main, but come on man.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Downstate.4697 said:

You described a meta where ele thrives.

You are also asking for nerfs to things that are good into ele.

I am also an ele main, but come on man.

I said it multiple times this is not from the perspective of an ele.. are people incabable of looking past, or assuming others cannot look past 1 class? The very reason I don't play SPB more is becuase I don't agree a spec should have that much CC potential in a game where mutliple classes have a high burst spec. Warrior has limitations, which im sure is annoying for SPB players, but when it works, it's obnoxious and not fun to face. Zerker is also obnoxious, along with seeing people justify the dmg its doing becuase ''just dodge'' or ''just a meme''. Its a shame, becuase the very people defending what warrior is currently doing in the game don't seem to realise that defending these toxic mechanics, and not asking for them to be balanced properly, is likely what will hold warrior back from seing significant buffs. How can you possible buff SPB right now? withought it breaking the game either directly, or indirectly through enabling other specs. Its already a strong side noder, and Ive seen it used very well in small skirmishes on multiple occassions.. its not all just about the top 5% game play.. although that ofc matters. Their are too many low skill floor specs in this game, and its beyound annoying having to work twise as hard to work around low effort avg reward specs. For example, the average SPB barely dodges when I attack them, its quite clear they have become accustomed to having such high CC potential, and rely on it as a mitigating crutch. The same as condi cata getting free stability/protection and yada yada from spamming signets. Its all the same low skill floor bs.

 

This new soulbeast build for example.. just another spec that is way harder to outplay than to play. Harbringer and scrapper still just pressing 123123 ftw... and so on. I've played all these specs, I know what they are doing, and its not enough to justify the CC or damage potentials.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Flowki.7194