Ranger Longbow

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 hours ago, Noenp.2041 said:

...

And i'm not even done yet, the 1500 range was good for 2015, when there wasn't a literal sniper spec in the game (deadeye), but now its just absurd how it has the highest range in the game, yes, the tooltip says it has 1500 range, but on wiki and in game you can see that the arrows curve making it hit further than 1500 range, making it effectively more of a sniper than the sniper itself! 😄 

...

Alright, distilled the OP into something I can actually respond to as the rest of it seems to be a complaint about rapid fire tracking and bemoaning lack of roleplay realism in that order--which are basically situational / subjective complaints that don't leave too much room for discussion.

So, I think the big issue here is (according to OP) Deadeye should be king of range because bullets fly farther than arrows.  I know I said I wasn't going to delve into the RP complaint here but GW2 doesn't really operate on real physics, so we have to instead directly compare the specs being discussed.

With Deadeye, you have access to Malice and thus have the spammy gameplay of hitting Skirmishers Shot until it fills, and then using Death's Judgement.  If this fails, you go into stealth with the 10 or so easy ways thief has access to and run.

With Ranger, you would have to be running Soulbeast and a Sic' Em build to get near Deadeye burst damage--so you blow all your utility skills, hit PBS and then Rapid Fire.  If this fails, Doylak Stance and bird / dog / GS #3 it out of there.

The problem? Ranger longbow burst is much more comparable to Berserker Gunflame burst as both require blowing all utility skills.  Deadeye burst merely requires spamming Skirm shot and landing Death's Judgement--little to no utility investment here.  

So, what really needs to be reworked here? As it sounds like Deadeye needs WAY more utility investment to do the burst, so you are in actuality with this topic asking for a nerf there.  

I'd be careful what you wish for.

Anyway, if doubting my analysis compare:

Mercy Deadeye Build (PvP) - Hardstuck

and 

Sic 'Em Soulbeast Build (PvP) - Hardstuck

Very, very easy to see what I'm talking about.  So easy an anet dev can even do it! 

[DeceiverX.8361]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Alright, distilled the OP into something I can actually respond to as the rest of it seems to be a complaint about rapid fire tracking and bemoaning lack of roleplay realism in that order--which are basically situational / subjective complaints that don't leave too much room for discussion.

So, I think the big issue here is (according to OP) Deadeye should be king of range because bullets fly farther than arrows.  I know I said I wasn't going to delve into the RP complaint here but GW2 doesn't really operate on real physics, so we have to instead directly compare the specs being discussed.

With Deadeye, you have access to Malice and thus have the spammy gameplay of hitting Skirmishers Shot until it fills, and then using Death's Judgement.  If this fails, you go into stealth with the 10 or so easy ways thief has access to and run.

With Ranger, you would have to be running Soulbeast and a Sic' Em build to get near Deadeye burst damage--so you blow all your utility skills, hit PBS and then Rapid Fire.  If this fails, Doylak Stance and bird / dog / GS #3 it out of there.

The problem? Ranger longbow burst is much more comparable to Berserker Gunflame burst as both require blowing all utility skills.  Deadeye burst merely requires spamming Skirm shot and landing Death's Judgement--little to no utility investment here.  

So, what really needs to be reworked here? As it sounds like Deadeye needs WAY more utility investment to do the burst, so you are in actuality with this topic asking for a nerf there.  

I'd be careful what you wish for.

Anyway, if doubting my analysis compare:

Mercy Deadeye Build (PvP) - Hardstuck

and 

Sic 'Em Soulbeast Build (PvP) - Hardstuck

Very, very easy to see what I'm talking about.  So easy an anet dev can even do it! 

It's apples and oranges to be honest.  I will say from a raw numbers and ease-of-use POV in dealing lots of damage very quickly, ranger is heavily favored in this argument.  My DE abilities are significantly behind what I pulled on soulbeast at roughly the same play hours, and RF and 7-malice DJ are similar in damage per skill (nudging just in favor of RF, but DPS is lower due to the cast time).

Note:  I'm coming at this with the perception of WvW rather than sPvP.  DE in sPvP is so much stronger relatively speaking than in WvW thanks to shadowsteps for verticality and more options for people to LOS RF's damage.  In WvW, this is more or less totally the opposite.

DE burst is on a pretty big delay having to stack the malice (and is at the mercy of landing the hits) and thus leaves you way more vulnerable to incoming damage whereas RF burst is immediate, and has longer range.

Further, DJ is a single-hit skill with a huge tell predicating the actual damage whereas RF is multi-hit, extends beyond the duration of double dodges so there's still a lot of "guaranteed" damage (without forcing other cooldowns as well), and can easily be made unblockable.  Baseline, RF is on a shorter cooldown factoring in the need for thief initiative to recharge to recast for malice stacks, but M7 will favor thief.  With Long Range Shot dealing 50% more damage than Brutal Aim, but Spotter's Shot dealing 66% more damage than Long Range Shot, initiative availability and how the opponent negates DJ and negates damage is honestly the sole determining factor in both burst and sustained damage from both in a relative comparison.  Opponents with more frequent but shorter/single-hit defenses are just better at dealing with DE than RF ranger, and opponents with longer defensive skills and CC are much more capable of fighting the ranger versus the DE.

DE is harder to pull off, but also does have a higher skill ceiling and *overall* deal more damage in ideal scenarios since it does have slightly more available utility and is using skills prior, though I would argue it isn't by much, heavily depending on the builds and matchups in question for both.

Longbow ranger is unquestionably an easier build to play with a *reasonable* level of performance relative to most other power builds out there thanks to the 1800 range and significantly higher HP and upfront damage, especially when pre-buffed, and absolutely and utterly annihilates pretty much anything in the ranged vs ranged matchup sphere today, so it's easy to see the biases coming from a DE player where Sic 'Em Soulbeast aggressively hard-counters every single facet of the build.

I wouldn't necessarily call it overpowered, but it's definitely the "noob tube" build of WvW where there is a significantly disproportionate ratio of minimum skill to play vs reward compared to pretty much everything else when it comes to power builds.  Similarly, it also falls off at middle-to-higher echelons of play and above.

In WvW, Condi shortbow however is very much an even easier build with even greater returns because it has so much utility (I literally play this as my "free 1v1 win build"), but that's almost entirely due to Dire/TB gear and generally, condition builds are so much just easier to play as a consequence than power.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

It's apples and oranges to be honest.  I will say from a raw numbers and ease-of-use POV in dealing lots of damage very quickly, ranger is heavily favored in this argument.  My DE abilities are significantly behind what I pulled on soulbeast at roughly the same play hours, and RF and 7-malice DJ are similar in damage per skill (nudging just in favor of RF, but DPS is lower due to the cast time).

Note:  I'm coming at this with the perception of WvW rather than sPvP.  DE in sPvP is so much stronger relatively speaking than in WvW thanks to shadowsteps for verticality and more options for people to LOS RF's damage.  In WvW, this is more or less totally the opposite.

DE burst is on a pretty big delay having to stack the malice (and is at the mercy of landing the hits) and thus leaves you way more vulnerable to incoming damage whereas RF burst is immediate, and has longer range.

Further, DJ is a single-hit skill with a huge tell predicating the actual damage whereas RF is multi-hit, extends beyond the duration of double dodges so there's still a lot of "guaranteed" damage (without forcing other cooldowns as well), and can easily be made unblockable.  Baseline, RF is on a shorter cooldown factoring in the need for thief initiative to recharge to recast for malice stacks, but M7 will favor thief.  With Long Range Shot dealing 50% more damage than Brutal Aim, but Spotter's Shot dealing 66% more damage than Long Range Shot, initiative availability and how the opponent negates DJ and negates damage is honestly the sole determining factor in both burst and sustained damage from both in a relative comparison.  Opponents with more frequent but shorter/single-hit defenses are just better at dealing with DE than RF ranger, and opponents with longer defensive skills and CC are much more capable of fighting the ranger versus the DE.

DE is harder to pull off, but also does have a higher skill ceiling and *overall* deal more damage in ideal scenarios since it does have slightly more available utility and is using skills prior, though I would argue it isn't by much, heavily depending on the builds and matchups in question for both.

Longbow ranger is unquestionably an easier build to play with a *reasonable* level of performance relative to most other power builds out there thanks to the 1800 range and significantly higher HP and upfront damage, especially when pre-buffed, and absolutely and utterly annihilates pretty much anything in the ranged vs ranged matchup sphere today, so it's easy to see the biases coming from a DE player where Sic 'Em Soulbeast aggressively hard-counters every single facet of the build.

I wouldn't necessarily call it overpowered, but it's definitely the "noob tube" build of WvW where there is a significantly disproportionate ratio of minimum skill to play vs reward compared to pretty much everything else when it comes to power builds.  Similarly, it also falls off at middle-to-higher echelons of play and above.

In WvW, Condi shortbow however is very much an even easier build with even greater returns because it has so much utility (I literally play this as my "free 1v1 win build"), but that's almost entirely due to Dire/TB gear and generally, condition builds are so much just easier to play as a consequence than power.

True, which is why I think this 'omg ranged burst is OP plz nerf' debate lends itself way more towards Berserker comparison and OP just a bit biased towards DE / maybe downed by one too many Sic' Em rangers.

As if you are good on Sic' Em you will be great on most forms of 'one shot' Berserker since Gunflame bursts are pretty much instant so you can't get CC out of the burst like Rapid Fire (without priming it with Dolyak that is).

I do agree both Sic' Em and Gunflame are very much LI noob stompers though, with Gunflame being practically meme.

Just didn't want OP accidently getting DE even more on dev radar by casually comparing it to Sic' Em (via random longbow argument) as it just doesn't make sense and is likely to have the opposite effect of what they are after.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

6 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Sic em + one wolf pack + rapid fire will def 1 shot a squishy with no CDs

Then don't get caught with your pants down and no cooldowns? There comes a point where you are arguing that a class just shouldn't be able to win a fight. Why should a squishy with no cooldowns up be able to survive a one-trick burst? 

I will not dispute that the combo is very strong, you can make it unblockable as well, but in doing so you have to use your elite, two utilities, and two weapon skills. If you are aware of the presence of the ranger this can all be at least partially negated with a single dodge. All of those skills then go on cooldown giving you 10 seconds to down the Ranger before it can use Rapid Fire again (even longer to get the full burst). At this point the Ranger has only their heal, one utility (probably a stun break), and alternate weapon set (probably greatsword) to deal with you. If it is a Soulbeast it probably has some pet skills to follow up, most likely smoke assault.

I don't see how this is any more problematic than any other cheesy build like stealth spamming Thieves, Mesmers that have more block and invulnerability frames than I can count, or Willbenders that get to decide to just leave the same plane of existence at the first sign of losing an engagement. Competitively I am coming from a mostly WvW viewpoint, PvP mileage may vary.

[wolfyrik.2017]

16 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Agreed.  As a Ranger main, even I yell at other Rangers for it's erroneous use. 

You jest, but it really annoys the kitten out of me when I'm fighting a group of mobs i've taken the effort to gather up,  or a group of us wailing on a non-defiance vet or champ in a timed event, only for some dumbkitten noob-kitten ranger to come along and pbs the mobs out of our AoE.

If I kept a record of players in PvE who p me off, they would almost exclusively be pbs-w*nk*rs

Edited July 21, 2023 by wolfyrik.2017

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

1 hour ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

You jest, but it really annoys the kitten out of me when I'm fighting a group of mobs i've taken the effort to gather up,  or a group of us wailing on a non-defiance vet or champ in a timed event, only for some dumbkitten noob-kitten ranger to come along and pbs the mobs out of our AoE.

If I kept a record of players in PvE who p me off, they would almost exclusively be pbs-w*nk*rs

On this one I will grant you, of all the professions that get pushes, it's always a Ranger that does this.

Less of an issue with the profession though, more the players that migrate to it. I get the impression that of all professions Ranger most appeals to the casual audience who have no desire to learn the nuances of the game and are happy to just face-roll through content, unwittingly giving a bad reputation to the profession as a whole.

[wolfyrik.2017]

25 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

On this one I will grant you, of all the professions that get pushes, it's always a Ranger that does this.

Less of an issue with the profession though, more the players that migrate to it. I get the impression that of all professions Ranger most appeals to the casual audience who have no desire to learn the nuances of the game and are happy to just face-roll through content, unwittingly giving a bad reputation to the profession as a whole.

Agreed. I think part of the problem is that it's too easy to fold in as part of a very simple, high damage rotation. I don't doubt that some people will do it on muscle memory or habit.

[Zyreva.1078]

31 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

On this one I will grant you, of all the professions that get pushes, it's always a Ranger that does this.

Not true to my experience. Ranger just gets the blame, even when no longbow is equipped ...

[Matoro.9708]

12 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Quick reminder that bickering results in thread being locked.

At least someone with authority reads these forums...

[Marckan.9526]

13 hours ago, RagingWolf.6438 said:

Yeah cause Ranger needs more cast times and damage nerf ASAP.

Longer cast time on Rapid Fire would be somewhat of a buff since you would dodge less arrows and would require projectile negation, LOS etc instead.

Speaking of dodge-mechanics - use it!

I play many classes and never have I been fearful when facing one, Longbow or not.

Lastly of you find yourself getting combo'd by Point Blank Shot into Rapid Fire so often, why arent you stun breaking the PBS or applying stability?

[Noenp.2041]

If anyone must know, I don't play DE, I actually don't have an actual main class and usually play with what i feel like playing, usually rotating between, Specter, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Mirage, Harbringer, Willbender and Weaver, which are the specs I usually play best, I've been in the game for around 10 years and have seen many reworks, nerfs, new mechanics, etc since i started playing the game. Since that time I've always seen longbow rangers and tried to avoid using longbow cause to me i feel its just clanky and preffer to use shorbow in almost all classes that can use it. Yes, before i started pvp, I would get annoyed watching the rangers spam point-blank shot every time when we used to do the champion trains, at the time I was in the Frostgorge Sound Champion Train guild, and watched every single time the squad leaders pleading for for the ranegr players to stop spamming that ability. Then it was for the mouth of modremoth where we needed to do slow cc and evryone, not just rangers at this time, spammed cc skills instead of just doing damage. Since this was in pve it did not matter much to me more than just being a nuisance. When i started doing pvp its where I started noticing longbow rangers "one shooting" teammates and enemies with that combo. I usually play a off hand healer build running with Dolyak rune for a little sustain and sage or avatar for healing +vit and respective stats for damage or condi build i was using with the character. But the time it started to annoy me was when i saw builds using ancient seeds MT from druid or jacarunda's embrace after point-blank shot making it almost impossible to escape if you don't have condi cleanse and stun breaks, ahving to destroy the vines to stop the spam of immobilize. Right now I play mostly with Specter and Spellbreaker shouting build so I have an easier time escaping, at least with shout heal and rune condi cleanse.  With specter i would usually survive with one the traits that would put me in specter shroud if i took lethal damage and i could just run after surviving or continue fighting, but now Anet reworked that trait and i can't be saved by it anymore. Still what annoys me most its the ranger ongbow having more range than any other longbows which are all 1200, so it still doesn't make sense it having more range than a sniper, which can only get the same range when the sniper kneels...

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

You jest, but it really annoys the kitten out of me when I'm fighting a group of mobs i've taken the effort to gather up,  or a group of us wailing on a non-defiance vet or champ in a timed event, only for some dumbkitten noob-kitten ranger to come along and pbs the mobs out of our AoE.

If I kept a record of players in PvE who p me off, they would almost exclusively be pbs-w*nk*rs

Nope, I don't jest.  I was really enjoying Sw/D ranger (core and untamed) until Anet screwed MH sword.  Regardless, when my pet and I are engaged with a target and rotating through skills and some other ranger knocks it away ....  yeah, I get testy.  I often feel it is inexperienced Ranger players who are simply pressing skills when they come off CD with no real thought or regard for the result.

[wolfyrik.2017]

5 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Nope, I don't jest.  I was really enjoying Sw/D ranger (core and untamed) until Anet screwed MH sword.  Regardless, when my pet and I are engaged with a target and rotating through skills and some other ranger knocks it away ....  yeah, I get testy.  I often feel it is inexperienced Ranger players who are simply pressing skills when they come off CD with no real thought or regard for the result.

More than agreed!

Edited July 21, 2023 by wolfyrik.2017

[Duglaive.5236]

7 hours ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

If I kept a record of players in PvE who p me off, they would almost exclusively be pbs-w*nk*rs

Mostly, but I remember a period of time when it was just as likely to be some GS wielding Mesmer spec using Illusionary Wave. Get some mobs grouped up, only to have said Mesmer knock them all away.

Of course, these days it's not unusual in my experience to go through a play session without seeing any Mesmers, excepting cities and hubs perhaps.

[Mell.4873]

18 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Then don't get caught with your pants down and no cooldowns? There comes a point where you are arguing that a class just shouldn't be able to win a fight. Why should a squishy with no cooldowns up be able to survive a one-trick burst? 

I will not dispute that the combo is very strong, you can make it unblockable as well, but in doing so you have to use your elite, two utilities, and two weapon skills. If you are aware of the presence of the ranger this can all be at least partially negated with a single dodge. All of those skills then go on cooldown giving you 10 seconds to down the Ranger before it can use Rapid Fire again (even longer to get the full burst). At this point the Ranger has only their heal, one utility (probably a stun break), and alternate weapon set (probably greatsword) to deal with you. If it is a Soulbeast it probably has some pet skills to follow up, most likely smoke assault.

I don't see how this is any more problematic than any other cheesy build like stealth spamming Thieves, Mesmers that have more block and invulnerability frames than I can count, or Willbenders that get to decide to just leave the same plane of existence at the first sign of losing an engagement. Competitively I am coming from a mostly WvW viewpoint, PvP mileage may vary.

This pretty much defeats the Authors logic. 

Soulbeast Sic Em + Longbow is the only combo that can really abuse something like Rapid Shot but it's a one trick pony. The only thing left to do is run away with two mobility Pet merge skills. I mean you are basicly a Thief at that point. 

From my experience is probably one of the weakest combo's on offer. 

 

@Noenp.2041

If you want some of the more OP stuff Rangers can do look into Untameds Restorataitive Strikes. This can combo with many skills to fully heal the Ranger, it's also on a 10 second cooldown. Even the new Celestial Avatar is a force to recon with, being able to team fight and roam with a single build. 

I know it's a bit of a meme but the Arrow Cart (Barrage + Quick Draw) is very strong in the right hands.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Widebody.5071]

No not Ranger, longbow, I'm having so much fun.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Longbow fine as is. It's used in most builds for multiple reasons.

1- quintessential ranger weapon.

2- is actually a good and effective weapon.

Bring up rangers other ranged options to be viable alternatives to Longbow for the same builds and they would see less use, no ones taking staff for a dps build, axe has way lower range as does short bow. Power is more common damage type and Longbow is power vs shortbow which is condi heavy, so of course it sees a lot of use because it's rangers only real power dps ranged weapon.

To make Longbow less effective to make other less viable options more appealing would be a disastrous to ranger class as a whole, so no thanks no update to long bow needed.

[Noenp.2041]

Ok, its an essential weapon, fine. Tell that to Anet where they have been trying lately their best to make other styles of gameplay viable... So what you'll probably see is, other weapons getting buffed to the "quintessential" category like lb, making lb no longer the only viable weapon, or them nerfing lb to keep it to the level of other weapons. Either way if anyone agrees with this post or not, Anet is already planing something and no one can do anything about it but them. :3

[Tiviana.2650]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:12 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Not true to my experience. Ranger just gets the blame, even when no longbow is equipped ...

I can attest to this, look around for a mech first. on mech if i want to troll rifle 4...or sheild that does an aoe knockback lol. funny thing is when its obvious a group has been knocked back they still blame ranger longbow lol

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:42 AM, Noenp.2041 said:

Ok, its an essential weapon, fine. Tell that to Anet where they have been trying lately their best to make other styles of gameplay viable... So what you'll probably see is, other weapons getting buffed to the "quintessential" category like lb, making lb no longer the only viable weapon, or them nerfing lb to keep it to the level of other weapons. Either way if anyone agrees with this post or not, Anet is already planing something and no one can do anything about it but them. :3

"Quintessential" means it is typical/representative of the subject, not to be confused with "essential" meaning that it is something that is required. What Psycoprophet was saying is that  most people would agree that thematically the Longbow is strongly representative of the Ranger, not that it is necessarily essential to being a Ranger.

[Noenp.2041]

56 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

"Quintessential" means it is typical/representative of the subject, not to be confused with "essential" meaning that it is something that is required. What Psycoprophet was saying is that  most people would agree that thematically the Longbow is strongly representative of the Ranger, not that it is necessarily essential to being a Ranger.

Well, learning something new everyday.

[Bastrii.3047]

There are way more horrid things in Gw2 than SB Longbow. Have you every fought a Mesmer running Signet of Humility before? How about Weaver combos? Heralds?

I've dealt with some terrible combos, but a Ranger Longbow has never been an issue for me. This is honestly one of those times where you learn that your build needs toughness and vit, suck it up, and move on. Or just break stun and dodge. Seriously, maybe try some Celestial gear - it could save your life.