Relics Bring New Equipment to Guild Wars 2: Secrets of the Obscure

[Labjax.2465]

Wow. I check in every once in a blue moon to see if things have improved and I'm glad I quit when I did. My sympathies to those of you who have stuck around. Taking away functionality, especially some of the grindiest-to-obtain functionality there is in the game, with vague promises of returning it through another grind... there is no valid explanation for it that is an overall positive outlook.

Is the intent to shake off veteran players and replace them with new ones? Or heck, just players who play a lot? I mean, I went wild when I was playing last year and managed to get 6 legendary runes. Or how about returning players? I couldn't imagine coming back excited for an expansion only to find that I'm missing functionality I logged countless hours on to obtain.

Like isn't that supposed to be one of the core selling points of GW2, historically? That if you step away and return, you don't end up behind? You still have what you have and you've got plenty of time to get it in?

And to put a finer point on it, part of the reason I got those 6 legendary runes is specifically because getting geared up properly for the better builds was a massive pain. A point which I recall bringing up a lot in detail. I don't understand how Relics would improve on that problem at all, even setting aside the way it does a reset on so much build functionality. It feels like shuffling functionality around to make it seem like something new and interesting is being done.

And it feels bad. It feels, much like the research notes stuff, like GW2 team does not have the development resources to introduce new features like they did in the past, so they are essentially "recycling" instead. Falling back on the tiresome treadmill MMO development mindset and in the process, undermining one of the core elements that makes GW2 unique in the MMO space. GW2 is not equipped to compete as a treadmill MMO and if it tries to be one, it loses a core part of what makes it viable as a competitor MMO at all.

What in the world are y'all doing?

And no, I don't mean "what are you doing in design spreadsheets." This is business, sink or swim. You literally cannot afford to treat your players like this; people complaining about it is just the surface level part, the hardest-to-ignore consequences come when people realize this is no longer the game they thought it was and leave.

[luigiormario.7305]

9 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

And that's exactly why we have all that relic nonsense. They need a replacement for elite specs - something op they can lock behind expansions, so players feel the need to buy expansions even if they are not interested in the new content. If they would just add new runes or grant legendary rune owners free access to legendary relics - all that new op stuff wouldn't be locked behind SotO anymore and that would undermine their strategy.

It's also why i'm 100% certain that legendary relics will require the new expansion.

They are taking stuff away from us, not only disrespecting invested time, but also locking it behind a paywall. And it's everyone's own decision if they want to support that practise or not. So to everyone who doesn't like this direction but has already preordered/is planning to buy the expansion regardless - you reap what you sow.

Personally by buying the expansion I am supporting a game I have got thousands of hours of enjoyment out of. Do  I agree with every decision they have ever made in their expansions? Absolutely not! However, this game has been by far my best investment in hours played vs money spent and it's not even close, so I will continue to support them. 

[Swoo.5079]

MThe legendary armory update was one of the best updates for the game.

Finally a way of changing builds that isn't a Massive PITA.

Changing builds is such a PITA that grinding Legendaries is less annoying.

So anything that takes one back from swapping builds at ease to inventory management, is NOT FUN.

Most people play games for fun.

I don't need to earn the privilege of being able to enjoy the combat system of Guild Wars 2.

I play the game, in a large measure, because I like the Guild Wars 2 combat system.

And someone at Anet knows that because they keep speeding up the levelling experience, so players can enjoy the combat system in its entirety.

Have you seen what Blizzard did with Diablo IV? They nerfed everything, making the game less enjoyable now, to make it better in the future. That is idiotic.

Making people experiences worse when Soto releases because in the future it will be better is likewise idiotic.

Sure a small percentage of people have legendary runes, but even people with regular runes will be affected, and now have to carry/keep runes and relics (and relics are soulbound after being equipped?).

Edited July 23, 2023 by Swoo.5079

[Graymatter.4723]

12 minutes ago, Swoo.5079 said:

The legendary armory update was one of the best updates for the game.

Finally a way of changing builds that isn't a Massive PITA.

Changing builds is such a PITA that grinding Legendaries is less annoying.

So anything that takes one back from swapping builds at ease to inventory management, is NOT FUN.

Most people play games for fun.

I don't need to earn the privilege of being able to enjoy the combat system of Guild Wars 2.

I play the game, in a large measure, because I like the Guild Wars 2 combat system.

And someone at Anet knows that because they keep speeding up the levelling experience, so players can enjoy the combat system in its entirety.

Have you seen what Blizzard did with Diablo IV? They nerfed everything, making the game less enjoyable now, to make it better in the future. That is idiotic.

Making people experiences worse when Soto releases because in the future it will be better is likewise idiotic.

Sure a small percentage of people have legendary runes, but even people with regular runes will be affected.

"Yay expansion day, where is my golem? Ah I can get it back with this relic box, but where is my speed for WvW?"

Any player using more runes than the free relic boxes, will be affected.

I have full legendary and don't like the delays for the legendary relic. That said, people without a full set of legendary runes will probably be better off. They have more flexibility. They get given 3 relics to choose per character at the release of the expansion and those relics will add more flexibility to their builds. In the long run it will be the same for someone who gets a legendary relic. They will have far more flexibility with their builds. Right now, I don't change runes often unless I am testing out new builds. I do change them on the odd occasion in WvW but not normally for raids/strikes. Going forward, I can see a situation where I swap out relics for certain fights and scenarios much like I do with changing utilities in those situations. This added variety and flexibility to the game. There will probably be some BIS relics for each build from a strictly damage/healing standpoint but the will also times when it makes sense to swap it out which is great.

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

So what I'm seeing is a change that no one asked for being pushed out before it's even finished and possibly making a selection of rune effects that are already in the game just... unusable? On top of making legendary runes partially non-functional for who knows how many months. This needs to be pushed back as a whole and launched once it's actually done.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, this change is amazing on paper and opens up a lot of options but it is CLEARLY not finished and should not be released with the SoTo launch in this state.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Sarge shot Grif.6450

[Healix.5819]

29 minutes ago, Sarge shot Grif.6450 said:

This needs to be pushed back as a whole and launched once it's actually done.

That would likely make it worse. The reason it has to be delayed is because they're obviously going to require you to obtain the new relics first, the last of which won't be available until the 3rd map is released. If they were to delay relics entirely, that only shifts all of the work to the final map and you'd still lose the ability to swap until you crafted it. All they have to do is fake a legendary relic by offering a vendor that sells free core relics, then you'd still be able to change bonuses whenever you wanted.

[Fifth.8169]

 

Quote

 

There are runes that have the same exact stat combinations up to 5 runes and then the 6th rune is different. For example, the runes of the pack, fireworks and surging. Now the rune of the pack actually gives stats (+125 precision) for the 6th rune. But the other two only have the special ability and give no stat bonus. Or does the 25% increase in movement speed count as a stat increase?

• In cases like this, we’ll be making sure that runes with duplicate 1-5 bonuses have unique 6 slot stats. In this example, 25% movement speed will count as a stat increase and will be seen on a handful of rune 6 pieces.

 

Regarding that last bit. Since 25% movement speed counts as stat increase, does that mean that runes that give % strike dmg , be kept as well. Strike dmg  is a "stat increase" . .   Stat is something I understand related to damage output and movement speed does not quite fit that description..

What will happen to Superior Rune of Scholar or even Superior Rune of the Berserker ?

The purpose of this was supposed to make this already messy business with runes simpler.  There are 9 attributes in the game.  Why not just assign runes a single attribute  and the players can socket any combination of these into our 6 pieces of gear.   Setup a trader NPC in the wizard tower that takes Superior Rune of Scholar ,  Superior Rune of the Berserker, and others and now exchanges it  for a Superior Rune of Power - with a single stat +100 Power..   Do that for all the runes and have them trade for a Single Stat.  Players then can choose to socket +600 Power , or do +300 Power, 100 Precision 200 condition damage.  Whatever combination.  Runes then become a stat, and the relic is the fun special item or whatever. 

By removign this 6th stat for the relic. I also want to make known, that the crafting and recipes associated with that rune  are no longer  worth it. What will happen to the recipes?.. - In the early day of GW2, you were not so hesitant to give us overhauls.   I see that you are trying to preserve this rune system, but as player. its just confusion, and we have been wanting to gone for 10 years. DO IT. give us something new.!   delay the overhaul for another few months to December. 

Then again if down the road , hybrid gems are introduced, such as instead of the 100 power rune I mentioned above; we get hybrid rune 50 power 50 other stat. We are again back to the same problem  where the 9 runes  becomes 18 and then 36.   -- Im sure this was already discussed in your development and Im just late to the party.  Looking forward to seeing what you have in store !

Edited July 23, 2023 by Fifth.8169

[Geralt.7519]

9 hours ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

We're exactly one month away from release, and there is very little info on what is going to be at release or when other things are going to be released. I know this isn't particularly unique to Anet, but, with the changes to how they plan to deliver content, giving precious little information on what will be in that content is further disheartening. Even outside of my discontent with the relics/runes thing, I don't even know what I'd be paying for if I bought the expansion right now.

I think publishing a roadmap would help a lot. For example here's the roadmap Blizzard published last year for the first year of latest WoW xpac (they usually last 2 years, we're currently at patch 10.1.5).

Anet is changing how they deliver content, with LS we knew what to expect, now we don't anymore. Publishing a roadmap for at least 1 year, then expanding those points in blog posts would go a long way in answering people's doubts about the new content IMO.

 

9 hours ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

Side note: None of my characters have beyond T1 jade bot core. I thought it was silly to have to spend 30+ gold per character for more vitality, and none of my builds scale off of vitality either. It is a bizarre system to add in the first place.

My very personal speculation is they were testing the waters on players reaction to introducing new gear pieces in new xpacs. It flew under that radar because it didn't take anything away from players and you can keep a T10 in a shared inv slot while equipping your chars with very cheap T1, not much of a hassle. Now we have relics.

[Galereth.4562]

I did all 6x runes and I think it's a joke this situation. Gold + time wasted creating them should now be significantly rewarded. The fact that you can make a legendary relic faster is a mockery. I hope they change something!

[Vereen Silenthunter.2704]

Here's a solution:

1. The runes stats don't change with SotO's launch, we still get that 6th piece bonus and that First Relic slot. All of us will engage with that system
2. When the legendary Relic will be available to be crafted, the Runes change to not include the 6th bonus, as is the current target and we get a Second Relic Slot.

Yes, we kind of power creep with that additionnal effect but it is actually a nice parallel with the Sigil situation and more of all: everybody is happy.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Vereen Silenthunter.2704

[Anthonev.6452]

7 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

Anet is changing how they deliver content, with LS we knew what to expect, now we don't anymore.

Well, we sort of do. In the past Anet would do a nice size expansion (think like 4 maps, plus some system stuff, fractal, a raid) along with around 2 years of included LS episodes (so another 6+ maps and other stuff).

Now, they will take around 5 maps worth of story/development time and put 2/5th or so in a 'mini' expansion that they can sell every year and then release the remaining 3 maps over the next 3 quarters.

Then repeat it all over again. Basically it's a move to 'guarantee' yearly income with an expansion each year for much the same development costs.

At least that was how I read it when this whole new 'content' focus and change was announced.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Geralt.7519 said:

My very personal speculation is they were testing the waters on players reaction to introducing new gear pieces in new xpacs. It flew under that radar because it didn't take anything away from players and you can keep a T10 in a shared inv slot while equipping your chars with very cheap T1, not much of a hassle. Now we have relics.

Yeah, in retrospect we all should have raised a bigger fuss about jade bots then. It was just such a small thing it didn't seem worth to make a big issue out of it. And the result is they probably took that as an invitation to go more into that direction.

[Acheron.1580]

I don't know how much of an influence jade bots had on this decision. There's been complaints about redundant runes, no new runes from the last expansion, and non-meta runes for a while. This is going in the direction most of the expansion content (and to a small degree arguably the balance patches), which is to give people what they are asking for on the forums. They wanted boons untethered from utilities, more meaningful rune choices (and more of them), easier skyscale, open world access to legendary armor, weapons usable outside of elite specs. In honestly Anet has been basically catering to forum demands.

The only problem with the relic system is it steps on the toes of an older system more than others. the skyscale isn't a negative change, and it still rewards people who do both collections with some nice masteries, so it doesn't devalue having gotten your skyscale earlier. The open world leggy armor is just a 4th way to get it and doesn't devalue your already achieved armor. Weapons outside of their respect elite class doesn't devalue the spec because they still have unique utilities, playstyle and traits.

The reason this is such a hot topic for being controversial is that splitting the 6th piece off the rune into a new slot  actually does devalue the legendary runes. And then giving a time frame way off into the future, that's pretty vague, and basically being told you can buy it back, is a way different can of worms than any other addition the expansion gives.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Acheron.1580
bad grammar

[Peter.3901]

On 7/21/2023 at 5:23 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hi all, I've got a few more answers to questions we've seen frequently. I'll add these to my original post as well:

•  
• Why only "progress towards," rather than rewarding the relic itself? 
  • The relic will need to be unlocked separately because relics will have new abilities beyond those covered by runes previously, and the legendary relic will be capable of expanding with new relic releases.

Still, it's wrong, if you want to charge us for that said "new abilities", we should ask for that first and buy when we want separately, otherwise, we have the right to maintain the current feature as we already paid and get the new as an improvement, and not just removing it and force everyone to have to buy it again.

You want to put the "new ability" anyway? fine!, we don't, so put it in a different system or put in the current for free so it will not impact the current customers, we have all the right for this.

Otherwise, you will be disrespecting a lot of players that trusted their time on this company.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Peter.3901

[Derktarlms.6213]

I suppose that in mvm and pvp that rune should be out, as it was done with the jade robot, it would be a disadvantage over those who do not have that expansion

Edited July 23, 2023 by Derktarlms.6213

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Just give me the choice of a legacy mode that has no relics and keeps my T6 rune bonus. I got all legendary runes and don't like them to be downgraded.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yeah, in retrospect we all should have raised a bigger fuss about jade bots then. It was just such a small thing it didn't seem worth to make a big issue out of it. And the result is they probably took that as an invitation to go more into that direction.

I think people would have blown tf up if they'd added "real" jade bot cores (like power/precision/etc), which is something I remember people being concerned about when they were first announced, but no one really cared about vitality because "yay more HP." For the most part, when jade bots came out, it was really kind of like "Weird thing to add, but ok."

Did people blow up when stat infusions showed up? I was playing something else then.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, QueenKeriti.5176 said:

I think people would have blown tf up if they'd added "real" jade bot cores (like power/precision/etc), which is something I remember people being concerned about when they were first announced, but no one really cared about vitality because "yay more HP." For the most part, when jade bots came out, it was really kind of like "Weird thing to add, but ok."

Did people blow up when stat infusions showed up? I was playing something else then.

Stat infusions got introduced alongside ascended, so when people did blow up (massively), they concentrated mostly on those. Still, infusions got their own share of complaints, which is why the planned better ones of the higher tiers never made it into the live server.

[QueenKeriti.5176]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Stat infusions got introduced alongside ascended, so when people did blow up (massively), they concentrated mostly on those. Still, infusions got their own share of complaints, which is why the planned better ones of the higher tiers never made it into the live server.

oooooof. Glad the higher tier ones never made it. Crazy that anyone thought those were okay to add in the first place.

[vrauns.3215]

TD:LR, poorly implemented, but will be good in the long run, customizable features are always a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, TheRunningSquire.3621 said:

TD:LR, poorly implemented, but will be good in the long run, customizable features are always a good thing, not a bad thing.

That's a mixed bag, tbh. It's exactly the high customization of GW2's gearing and build system that leads to massive gaps in effectiveness within the community, and makes high-end challenging content to be either not so challenging, or not very popular. And often both.

Notice also, offering more choices is exactly opposite of the direction previous rune balance changes went - those were about making full runesets clearly superior to match-and-mixing different runesets, which reduced the amount of good choices.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Graymatter.4723]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's a mixed bag, tbh. It's exactly the high customization of GW2's gearing and build system that leads to massive gaps in effectiveness within the community, and makes high-end challenging content to be either not so challenging, or not very popular. And often both.

Notice also, offering more choices is exactly opposite of the direction previous rune balance changes went - those were about making full runesets clearly superior to match-and-mixing different runesets, which reduced the amount of good choices.

From a DPS/Healing standpoint, there will probably be a BIS, but I think the new system adds other options. Current runes are limited because your "bonus" is tied to the other stats. Once this is broken off, you will be able to use relics as something situational without breaking your damage/healing. So, there may be encounters where specific relics shine in PVE or play styles in WvW where different relics suit players and play modes differently.

[Sreoom.3690]

Wait until you hear about the Relic extractor you have to purchase in the Gem Store in order to change out your relic  🙂

 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sreoom.3690

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, Sreoom.3690 said:

Wait until you hear about the Relic extractor you have to purchase in the Gem Store in order to change out your relic  🙂

I know this was supposed to be funny and snarkastic 😉, but I'd still like to point out that the Relic will not be embedded in a piece of armor, so no Extractor will be needed. 😄

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:12 AM, Geralt.7519 said:

I think publishing a roadmap would help a lot. For example here's the roadmap Blizzard published last year for the first year of latest WoW xpac (they usually last 2 years, we're currently at patch 10.1.5).

Anet is changing how they deliver content, with LS we knew what to expect, now we don't anymore. Publishing a roadmap for at least 1 year, then expanding those points in blog posts would go a long way in answering people's doubts about the new content IMO.

That would be great 100%.

On 7/23/2023 at 1:12 AM, Geralt.7519 said:

My very personal speculation is they were testing the waters on players reaction to introducing new gear pieces in new xpacs. It flew under that radar because it didn't take anything away from players and you can keep a T10 in a shared inv slot while equipping your chars with very cheap T1, not much of a hassle. Now we have relics.

I think so too, that it's a bit of testing the waters. Maybe it did fly under the radar. I am not saying you are in favor of it or not, but this is my personal opinion. I think that a single page like the Jade Bot system would not be a improvement.

 

I have 8 equipment pages for my most played character and legendary armor for said character. I for PvE I have Alac/Quick/2x Power DPS/Condi DPS and I have 3 sets of different WvW / PvP equipment/build pages. Each equipment page requires a rune type that comes with a effect that will be moved to relics from the 6th rune. Some rune effects are quite similar, but if it's a single page then it will be quite burdensome.

 

IF it's a single page it makes switching builds burdensome, especially if the relic needs to be different (We will need to go into the menu, probably switch tabs in the menu, have to click 2 or 3 other places and use a relic from our inventory).

 

But with having said all of that, if it's not tied to builds or armor then AND is on a single page then perhaps...

I wonder if the relic page could have multiple spaces or slots for different equipment tabs to use. It would be like a "utility belt". When switching equipment tabs you could also switch the equipped relic. That way you could set things there and the burdensome part I mentioned would be gone.

PS. I have no idea how a legendary relic would work in that case though...

Edited July 25, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415