Stealth counter

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

yhere is the list of classes that have reveal , correct me of im wrong :

Core necro /dragonhunter / herald /core warrior /spellbreaker / core ranger / core engi / deadeye.

deadeye applies reveal with some skills yes, but that reveal is to the deadeye themselves not to the opponent, mainly so animations are not hidden.  thus the professions without access to reveal on an opponent are : thief, mesmer, ele.
yet existing reveals have differences in their power so you will see some of them more than other, rarely i see people pick them specifically for the reveal, mostly for something else. similarly not everyone has consitent boonstrip but you dont need every tool in the game to be viable.
and as said above if reveal is readily available to the point that stealth cannot be used to any effect, evade/teleport spamm wont offer more counterplay.

[Andy.5981]

2 hours ago, Exzen.2976 said:

It's not about "countering" it's about having some counterplay. It's not the same thing. You see the "Rock/paper/scissors" thing thrown around a lot. You should at least have a chance to outplay someone - even if they have an advantage. It shouldn't be a case of "oh, there is a good d/p thief, I might as well just /sit and wait to die".

And with regards to your point about reveal, 2 whole classes (core + 3 elites) and many of the specs don't have reveals, kinda most imo. That's not fair at all.

The point is, you shouldnt have to swap characters just because a thief is around.

The thing is, any class can kill thieves. I know I've done it, so have countless others.

Having said that obviously there are variables. Perhaps the thieves I took on weren't skilled? Perhaps they had a sub par build that may have just encountered a build that I had that could kill them.?

I've also encountered thieves that I just couldn't kill and they couldn't kill me - a stalemate. Then the last group are the ones that were really skilled and I just couldnt kill - they killed me everytime.

Thats how the game goes.

I agree that the rock/paper/scissors quote is mentioned a lot and thats quite simplistic. Its much more granular. You have to take into account the class, build, stats and equipment and their skill level. Any one of those might just be better than you. It's just easier to say rock/paper/scissors., but the fact remains a skilled player with a good knowledge of their class is a nightmare to play against, irrespective of the class.

 

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

yes i play light classes aka memser and eli , i think i said enough about how things should be balanced out against stealth , the point your making is that "There shouldn't be one class that should be able to counter everything in the game" is questionable

 

I thought as much and it isn't questionable. There should not be a juggernaut class that can do everything. If that was the case what the hell do you think would happen? Thats right all the really skilled players would simply take that and wipe the floor with everyone.



 

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

so whats your point here ? that mesmer and eli are the gods of pvp and they should at least have less things to counter ?

Well judging from the PvP and WvW subforums, they seem to be doing rather well given the complaints against them. I think Ele definately have enough tools to counter most things....

 

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

I didn't play all classes so i don't know how some classes work in terme of reveal , but i looked up and what do u mean the majority of classes have ? , to break it down for you , here is the list of classes that have reveal , correct me of im wrong :

Well seven of the nine classes have the ability to spec revealed even if its an elite spec, so pardon me if my mathematics isn't up to scratch but 7 is more than 2?

 

 

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

I didn't play all classes

Have you played Thief? If not perhaps try it. Again not siding with Thieves since I play all classes, but I think you might find that it isn't all its made out to be. There are quite a few classes that have it far far easier with all their abilities......

Edited July 21, 2023 by Andy.5981

[Burnfall.9573]

Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO in the gaming market; especially for 11 years; whose Stealth Mechanic is Toxic- with having-0 zero counter-

What I find Hilarious is that, sometimes I think that Anet truly believes that the Community are Idiot beings--that somehow we are Vagabonds---stray adult kids with estranged parents---their prisoners--held against our rights--our freedom--against our will--slaves 

In todays present gaming market;  game Companies have Zero Tolerance for Anet: Stealth Mechanic and they would not even dare allow it to be in their games.

-There are so many potential players who would like to play Guild Wars 2 but Thief Profession with Stealth Mechanic are the reason why they refuse to willing to play.

Seriously, ask yourself, what positive message does Anet: Stealth Mechanic give to them? Absolutely None! Being one shot out of stealth, abusing stealth, exploiting stealth, Perma-Stealth, Toxic Experience, Unfair Competition...why would they risk it?

Reality Check is; Anet designed Thief Profession to be the most Toxic Profession in the game and who would be the Profession to be equipped with the most Toxic mechanic in Guild Wars 2?

>>>>Thief Profession<<<

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic are Guild Wars 2 biggest threats and Anet advocates it, defends it, tolerates it and allows it to continue....for 11 years!!...until this day

 

"Don't be mad when someone else starts to appreciate the person you took for granted. What you did, Someone else will not do"

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[ilMasa.2546]

Im at that point where when i see a thief roaming i just move on with my life. Not worth my time. It's not even cos i get rolled: in almost all of my builds i have a reflects or a dmg mitigation or a block...  it's just annoying to see how easily a thief can reset a fight,it's just BS.

anyone remember the perma stealth trap thief...?! lol that was the PINNACLE of BS :
 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[senftube.6081]

33 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO in the gaming market; especially for 11 years; whose Stealth Mechanic is Toxic- with having-0 zero counter-

What I find Hilarious is that, sometimes I think that Anet truly believes that the Community are Idiot beings--that somehow we are Vagabonds---stray adult kids with estranged parents---their prisoners--held against our rights--our freedom--against our will--slaves 

In todays present gaming market;  game Companies have Zero Tolerance for Anet: Stealth Mechanic and they would not even dare allow it to be in their games.

-There are so many potential players who would like to play Guild Wars 2 but Thief Profession with Stealth Mechanic are the reason why they refuse to willing to play.

Seriously, ask yourself, what positive message does Anet: Stealth Mechanic give to them? Absolutely None! Being one shot out of stealth, abusing stealth, exploiting stealth, Perma-Stealth, Toxic Experience, Unfair Competition...why would they risk it?

Reality Check is; Anet designed Thief Profession to be the most Toxic Profession in the game and who would be the Profession to be equipped with the most Toxic mechanic in Guild Wars 2?

>>>>Thief Profession<<<

Thief Profession and Stealth Mechanic are Guild Wars 2 biggest threats and Anet advocates it, defends it, tolerates it and allows it to continue....for 11 years!!...until this day

 

"Don't be mad when someone else starts to appreciate the person you took for granted. What you did, Someone else will not do"

 

 

Copium

[kash.9213]

12 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thieves can still stealth there with 40%+ uptime you know.

But if thieves want to argue stealth is fine, we're back to one main point:

Delete the smokefield for pistol 5. That has nothing to do with stealth balance, right? The skill doesnt even apply stealth!

If a thief argues against that well they show their true colors.

If they delete smoke field from pistol 5, there will need to be another semi consistent way for Specter to trigger traits like Panakus Ambition. I'm mostly thinking about group stealth and barrier though. 

[Burnfall.9573]

1 hour ago, senftube.6081 said:

Copium

Yup.....

Edited July 21, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[kash.9213]

11 minutes ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Yup.....

'Yup', not a huge amount of stealth or mobility going on there. They knew where he was the entire time and he was pretty much on top of them and in range of everything most of that time. Most of his mitigation seems to be casually walking out of their lanes. He hardly even needs to use his stun breaks. 
You and that other guy keep posting videos but they usually counter your point somehow. At least this one was semi recent and not years to a decade old. 

[Burnfall.9573]

3 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

'Yup', not a huge amount of stealth or mobility going on there. They knew where he was the entire time and he was pretty much on top of them and in range of everything most of that time. Most of his mitigation seems to be casually walking out of their lanes. He hardly even needs to use his stun breaks. 
You and that other guy keep posting videos but they usually counter your point somehow. At least this one was semi recent and not years to a decade old. 

"Time Changes Nothing If Nothing Changes"

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

If they delete smoke field from pistol 5, there will need to be another semi consistent way for Specter to trigger traits like Panakus Ambition. I'm mostly thinking about group stealth and barrier though. 

And this is what I mean. You have a trait that literally interact with every second of your existance but no you need more more MORE in defense of pistol 5. You have a regular skill, like normal classes, which apply a long duration smokefield on regular cooldown. But that's not enough, is it? You need pistol 5 on no cd. You have another skill on regular cooldown that apply group stealth but that's not enough either, is it? You need pistol 5 on no cd. It's not like you'd need several people to maintain perma anything haha that'd be ridiculous in an MMO.

It's almost like having a normal 40-60s cd skill with no cd is OP or something. If you remove it? Well then you need something to replace it, of course.

Well that's not how Anet taught me the class balance works in the engineer. 

Sorry.

TL;DR no, you can just remove the smoke field from the weapon skill.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Random dude.5089]

22 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

Sorry to say to you OP but ever since anet nerfed stealth duration to the ground and pretty much removed shadow meld so it can't remove reveal (now it's just a 2 sec stealth duration skill what a joke !), it is completely l2p issue.
There are tons builds that hardcounters stealth w/ reveal and if you want "reveal" to be added to whatever build your are using then i have nothing to say lol.
You see this is the reason why I partly understand anet's standpoint on current balance patches because previously so many people wanted anet to spoonfeed them without exploring other viable counters.
Maybe this is also reason why anet is adding quickness and alac to all classes at the expanse of class identity because there are people who, like you OP, wanted those boons to be added to their favorite skills.
Yes there were some builds that to my eyes were super oppressive but instead of crying at this forum, I actually played the build for myself and see how other good players counter it. 
So how about OP you play this crazy stealth build that you are having difficulty with and see for yourself? If whatever you are saying is right then feel free to post video. That way it is more likely to get nerfed

I have no idea what alacrity or quickness have to do with stealth , but i don't record games , plus im not gonna waste my time pressuring myself so it gets nerfed , i posted this cause i spent time looking for people who have the same issue as me and think stealth need at least one spells to give you a 3 second window to cast your spells , also i love playing my casters , and im not gonna go change my class and build just so i can counter "thiefs" like how dumb that sounded when you said that lol , also alac and quickness were added to some classes , not all , if you actualy play the game you would understand whats the reason its added , not assume why they added and use the " maybe" , your using assumption and including it an argument kinda weird.

so we don't go so far in this argument , im just gonna state that 3 second stealth reveal on all classes aint gonna hurt anyone , and thiefs can use their defensives to play arround it , i think i talked enough about this , even people agreed with me , but there is always the people who use the "crying" like usual , like the game is balanced , if you check the last patch you know how unbalanced the game is , anet is nerfing classes to the ground , never seen someone nerfing classes this hard in an mmo or even moba games , i think the balance patches speaks for themselves , but still give classes reveal , cause its bs some gets it and some don't.

 

[flyingplanet.6912]

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

i love playing my casters , and im not gonna go change my class and build just so i can counter "thiefs" like how dumb that sounded when you said that lol

?? so you don't want to change your build but instead want anet to add stuff to your favorite skills so you can counter something you don't like lmao.
Yeah this discussion pointless and I can tell you for sure what you just said will never happen. goodluck man

[Random dude.5089]

30 minutes ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

?? so you don't want to change your build but instead want anet to add stuff to your favorite skills so you can counter something you don't like lmao.
Yeah this discussion pointless and I can tell you for sure what you just said will never happen. goodluck man

the optimized builds have no counter to stealth , even if i change to full defensive mod , then ? losing 50% of my dmg to can live 5 second longer than i usualy do ? your not even using common sense at this point , my post was to give classes an option to counter stealth aka reveal , dmg reduction doesn't counter stealth , if he burst and i use lets say immunity to damage , seince u clearly think people spam dmg imunity like it got 2 second cd , he just go invis again and back off and does it over and over , you can almost never win again good thiefs , which probably you didn't encounter looking at you having no issue with stealth , but u should realy go take a loot at daredevil and deadeye gameplays , they never get caught and nuke you down in seconds , im just stating we need a 3 second stealth reveal or something slightly better , and your getting all agitated over it , like i said remove thief stealth , jesus , i have no idea in what universe people think a 3 second reveal of every class will kill thiefs , but thats just being entiteled at this point , anyway i said what i think it should be done , no need for the " just watch youtube videos and do this and do that" cause i spend almost 8 hours in wvw every days for almost a year and im not someone who get killed in one duel while first timing pvp , im just talking from experience , good luck to you too buddy.

[flyingplanet.6912]

2 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

but u should realy go take a loot at daredevil and deadeye gameplays , they never get caught and nuke you down in seconds , im just stating we need a 3 second stealth reveal or something slightly better , and your getting all agitated over it , like i said remove thief stealth , jesus

Except mesmer and ele, every single class has 3 sec or more of reveal and guess what? you need to change your build to get it. ANd if you look DE and DD gameplay videos, 99% of the time enemies fight them in open field while chasing them one by one and of course thief will win no matter what because that is what thief is designed for. Seems like you have never even considered terrains, obstacles, blocks, reflects or even using your teammates. These things you should know if you are very dedicated in finding out how to counter thief. 

2 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

i spend almost 8 hours in wvw every days for almost a year

I don't care if you spend your whole day in wvw. Your time spent does not mean you should win more. The way you say it only tells that you just followed a tag blankly all day.

[cyberzombie.7348]

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

the optimized builds have no counter to stealth , even if i change to full defensive mod , then ? losing 50% of my dmg to can live 5 second longer than i usualy do ?

You don't have to go full defensive, slotting a single reveal is enough. Plus out of curiosity how is going full defense mods only adding seconds to survival? I've seen and done X vs thief matchups that range from seconds to several minutes. 

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

your not even using common sense at this point , my post was to give classes an option to counter stealth aka revea

Litteraly the only classes that doesn't have a reveal these days are mesmer and ele. Mesmer already have an abundance of stealth if built for it and ele is well overdue for one. Even without a reveal slotted, there are tricks to track stealthed players.

-Casting channeled skills right before they pop it,

-Tethered AoEs like guardian's gs skill binding blade tracks targets regardless of stealth,

-If you have another target and a ricochet skill it'll track after the subsequent bounce.

Combine any of that with a fire sigil to ping a hit.

2 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

he just go invis again and back off and does it over and over , you can almost never win again good thiefs , which probably you didn't encounter looking at you having no issue with stealth

I can say from experienceing duels, sPvP, and WvW roaming that if they're constantly resetting fights, they're not skilled. Majority the time they pop invis to close into position, not away.

2 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

im just stating we need a 3 second stealth reveal or something slightly better

Every reveal skill last 6 seconds and more.

2 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

cause i spend almost 8 hours in wvw every days for almost a year and im not someone who get killed in one duel while first timing pvp ,

No disrespect, that sounds unhealthy. Even when well rested I notice mental fatigue and skill drop after an hour or two of playing.

[Random dude.5089]

16 minutes ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

Except mesmer and ele, every single class has 3 sec or more of reveal and guess what? you need to change your build to get it. ANd if you look DE and DD gameplay videos, 99% of the time enemies fight them in open field while chasing them one by one and of course thief will win no matter what because that is what thief is designed for. Seems like you have never even considered terrains, obstacles, blocks, reflects or even using your teammates. These things you should know if you are very dedicated in finding out how to counter thief. 

I don't care if you spend your whole day in wvw. Your time spent does not mean you should win more. The way you say it only tells that you just followed a tag blankly all day.

im talking about duels while roaming or defending your camps ? roaming is also a big part of wvw , since a lots of people like to go arround solo , which also bring value to your team , wvw is not based on zergs only , and yes im a roamer , so yes i encounter a lot of those , if your in a zerg nobody realy cares , thief is dogshit in zergs unless your clouding attackers and try to catch people offguard who pay no attention to their surroundingsand tag.

also no i don't folow tags cause power choro and condi mirage are bottom tier in zergs.

[Leger.3724]

All these stealth/mobility players desperate to change the narrative.

The facts:

1) No counterplay

2) Low skill cap

3) Extreme survivability

No other game has this toxic trifecta among their high mobility and high stealth/concealment classes. It's not about OP or not OP. It's about "is it fun to play against this? Are there viable and consistent ways to kill the opponent?" and the answer right now is no to both. If you win the 1v1... the majority of the time they run away and you get credit for nothing. Worse - they lose and then they'll teleport back to you and try again and again and again and again.

It is extremely bad to have one specific build able to determine the start and end of a fight regardless of whether they win or lose.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Leger.3724

[Zekent.3652]

WvW roam is not worth my time, stealth spam is legit a toxic mechanic, and it's ironic seeing perma slteath thieves complaining about cele, which yes, cele is really annoying and also a toxic stat, but what do stealth spam salty thieves expects them to do?

[cyberzombie.7348]

34 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

The facts:

1) No counterplay

2) Low skill cap

3) Extreme survivability

No other game has this toxic trifecta among their high mobility and high stealth/concealment classes. It's not about OP or not OP. It's about "is it fun to play against this? Are there viable and consistent ways to kill the opponent?" and the answer right now is no to both. If you win the 1v1... the majority of the time they run away and you get credit for nothing. Worse - they lose and then they'll teleport back to you and try again and again and again and again.

It is extremely bad to have one specific build able to determine the start and end of a fight regardless of whether they win or lose.

Change stealth/mobility to high sustain/mobility, and the same playstyle can be duplicated. I say this because I've seen and done it on classes/builds that had 0 stealth. Hell even on my own thief I had players constantly trying to fish a kill out of me even though I was built to bunker down.

The best tactic I learned in those situations is to call their bluff. If they run away, don't chase (they might be baiting you) and don't turn your back (most think your camera is turned as well)  Just walk backwards and/or abreast untill they fully committed to bail. If they haven't, slot some counters when you get ooc and be ready to bait their burst.

[RazieL.5684]

2 hours ago, flyingplanet.6912 said:

of course thief will win no matter what because that is what thief is designed for

when i read stupid kitten like this is when i take a break from the forums... THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE POST! NO CLASS SHOULD "WIN NO MATTER WHAT"!!! jeezus kitten christ!

[Marckan.9526]

Ever heard of class counters?

If you're having issues with Thieves and dont want to swap to a class that can counter stealth, then why are you even complaining?

Close thread please.

[senftube.6081]

3 hours ago, Leger.3724 said:

All these stealth/mobility players desperate to change the narrative.

The facts:

1) No counterplay

2) Low skill cap

3) Extreme survivability

 

1.) There are sereval counters to stealth. Many peoples wrote it.

2.) Thief low skill cap-......nice joke.  I guess you reached never Plat or did some real duels/roaming against decent players. Only really really bad players write this. Thief is beside Memser and Ele one of the classes which has a high skill cap. Hard to master and only the really good players match that lvl.

3.) Yes very extrem, thats why i can 1 shot them with my soulbeast pew pew.

 

Wait here i have a fact for you

 

Thief is one of the least played classes in the whole game. 😅

Edited July 22, 2023 by senftube.6081

[oatsnjuices.1698]

You are complaining about 10 year thieves? Maybe you should just fight Hadi, maybe you will fair better LMAO!

[flyingplanet.6912]

17 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

when i read stupid kitten like this is when i take a break from the forums... THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE POST! NO CLASS SHOULD "WIN NO MATTER WHAT"!!! jeezus kitten christ!

You get lured into thief's game you will lose. You fight a class with high mobility and stealth in open field where there's ton of space to run away you are at disadvantage. Same thing applies to builds like necros or dragonhunter where they get significant advantage in confined space. 
I now don't really see a point in discussing anymore. You will ask for nerfs no matter what and this stealth discussion has been ongoing for years although it got heavily nerfed. I hope anet realized by now that it's impossible to satisfy you until they delete one large aspect of the game. You can ask anet to delete whatever you dislike and it won't happen because anet rarely look at these careless suggestions anymore. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by flyingplanet.6912

[Random dude.5089]

58 minutes ago, Marckan.9526 said:

Ever heard of class counters?

If you're having issues with Thieves and dont want to swap to a class that can counter stealth, then why are you even complaining?

Close thread please.

Im here trying to talk to human beings about something that should be fixed in the game , and i like debating about things and see how other people reply and try to understand how everyone see the problem in stealth , also no you don't go change the class you enjoy playing to counter thief in wvw or pvp , thats what makes an mmo , is having fun with a class your comfortable with , its not a 9 hour job for me to go elitist mod and play another charater for one class, thats why im asking for the reveal spells for every class , which is not broken at all and wont effect much how thief works , hes still gonna be invis , but i will put more pressure on him doing that and enjoy the encounter  , im not trying to be toxic or be rude here, but for some reason u got mad about this post , and brought no value to the conversation , and its also not brothering you to not click on here and read , you can legit ignore the post and not pay attention to this but sure , you do you.