SotO Is so good and People need to stop complaining

[Alsandar.7420]

For complaints

Be concise & calm

Use bullet points

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

@LolzImSquishy.4978 I'm really glad you're enjoying SotO! I want to thank you for sharing that you like the expansion--the good feedback is necessary to hear so we know what people like and want more of, plus I'm gonna be real honest: It's fun to read. 🙂 

Criticism is absolutely needed as well though--it's part of how we keep making the game better and better--so I also want to thank those of you who are taking your time to constructively outline what you want to see improved, and let you know that I am continuing to read through a lot of feedback and pass it to various teams. I appreciate all of you who are contributing constructively! 

Hey Rubi

I'm constructing a thread, with a list that describes which Relics are well-designed, and which ones are no-so-well designed. It will take a little bit of time, but some of the Relics are indeed designed extremely well (Relic of Lyhr, Relic of the Necromancer, and Relic of Speed are good examples of good design) and I think such a list will help narrow down exactly what you should look into, and how to approach making adjustments to the ones that are not.

The Relic system itself is a far superior system to the old rune system. That is a straight fact, but people are too polarized right now, over-generalizing and lumping in everything together, which makes a lot of comments largely non-constructive. Specifically with the Relic system, the majority of people are upset about only 40 out of the 100 runes having their effects present at launch of the expansion. You should maybe consider doing some PR...letting people know that you haven't taken it all away...the consideration being that people are under the assumption that they paid for receiving less things... is going to look bad.

Unlocking Weapons is also a good thing for the game, and unlocking the possibilities is a return to the guild wars franchises original design philosophies. 

I can't speak much for the PVE side of things...but the general approach of improving old, broken and abandoned systems is the right move...and like any move, execution is key...where the systems that replace the old ones need to be better than the old ones. Keep that consideration in mind. Cheers.

[HotDelirium.7984]

1 hour ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

@LolzImSquishy.4978 I'm really glad you're enjoying SotO! I want to thank you for sharing that you like the expansion--the good feedback is necessary to hear so we know what people like and want more of, plus I'm gonna be real honest: It's fun to read. 🙂 

Criticism is absolutely needed as well though--it's part of how we keep making the game better and better--so I also want to thank those of you who are taking your time to constructively outline what you want to see improved, and let you know that I am continuing to read through a lot of feedback and pass it to various teams. I appreciate all of you who are contributing constructively! 

I know there are a few ways to give constructive feedback while avoiding the obvious (don't be abusive and toxic)- is there a best version that's the most helpful for the team?

For example, I have heard that feedback should be limited to facts and impressions and shouldn't really include your own personal take on a solution.

[Jianyu.7065]

My wife and I had the exact same dailies twice in a row...

👀

🫳

🎤

[DanAlcedo.3281]

7 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

People complain because they changed things, they don’t care that most of these changes are actually good and fun. They just hate change and that’s why they get angry and complain. You see this same behavior in real life as well, unfortunately. 

Change becomes a problem when some parts get worse and other better when there is no reason to make things worse. 

The new daily system has parts that are improved but others are straight up worse. 

And the worse parts are done so by design. Not something you could miss in development. 

This isn't the real world where change has to come with compromise. 

[idpersona.3810]

8 hours ago, Jianyu.7065 said:

My wife and I had the exact same dailies twice in a row...

👀

🫳

🎤

Then you have the exact same expansions purchased with the same choices selected. Makes sense.

My wife doesn't have SotO yet so she has different dailies for PvE.

Missing HoT/PoF would also spit out different dailies. As would just having core accounts or just EoD. That's just how it's currently set up. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[LadyKitty.6120]

From a buildcrafter's perspective, the way relic system was implemented is really problematic: 60% of old options gone with 12% new ones being added and many additions are functionally almost same with just a few options on triggers.

Some of the options are too undertuned to be an option (Relic of Mabon is 175 power/condition damage so less than 5% for most power builds with a hefty price when it ends while Thief rune is reliable 5% on most builds) and we're missing many build-defining special interactions that either covered for build's weak spot (boon runes like Pack for builds without Fury or Swiftness output), augmented some aspect (Sanctuary's heals2barrier, Rebirth's "negate lethal blow"), added some flair that wasn't exactly DPS increase but hugely added either a friend or RP value(summons as golems for golemancers and you deleted John Wick's rock doggo and piwates don't "Yarr!" anymore) or added new trait-like functionality to skills (like the infamous trapper runes' "stealth when you trap" and weaver runes' "barrier when you use stance skill").

Some of what Kitty sees as a problem with some of the current relics is how they're boosting different thing than what their trigger is generally used for. Most glaringly Cantrips: on specifically Deadeye there's a couple offensive ones but in general Cantrips are utility/support-type of skills and in that regard, the old "gain might when you use Cantrip" made sense. Currently, considering how there's lots of strike damage buffers already, adding short AoE immobilize around the player when using the Cantrip might work better on Relic of the Deadeye. Or maybe add a bit of superspeed?

And using elite skill as trigger is quite problematic, especially for support-type triggers (Zephyrite and Pack relics as examples). Many builds use elite skills for a specific strong function and adding some small buff to them isn't enough to make spamming them worth it or even make it noticeable in most cases. Tying strong buff would force a choice between spamming and risking what elites was taken to be used against or saving and not ending up getting the buffs and in such scenario, defaulting to Monk/Thief/Aristocracy is better option overall and that results in dead relics. In this case, it'd be promoting active use for the sake of active use resulting in no use at all. Even though passivity might sound boring, in the case of boon-generation (except quickness and alacrity) and stuff like what Ranger, Rebirth and Sanctuary runes used to do, it can sometimes be a superior option. To be clear, unless we get a new reliable way of generating Fury and Swiftness through relic, bunch of support builds that used to use Pack runes to bring those boons are heading from borderline existence to obsolution and that's a goodbye to diversity. *insert "You were meant to" Obi-Wan and Anakin meme here*

But yeah, on top of that, relics being soulbound on use and costing a lot also makes testing builds incredibly expensive and would take too much bag space. At least in the past before legendary runes, it was possible to share the rune+armor set between all users of same weight class or extract the runes with Endless Upgrade Extractor. As such, the relics are extremely anti-alt system until legendary relic is released.

Also, we now need some SERIOUS balancing. Since there wasn't much adjusting from beta, allowing combining the strongest weapons with specs with highest modifiers is causing extreme powercreep atm. 48k dps on Scourge was a big enough problem to warrant a hotfix during early PoF era but if it's now becoming a norm with multiple specs doing that on their optimal weapons+specs-combo...that'll be the end of GW2 as the game with most versatile build system. It's seriously a time to tune down the damage a bunch or challenging content becomes "oh, a squishy punchybag lolz". Just tuning up the underperformers (aka. 80% of the system now) doesn't work. (though even before expansion half of weapons were at borderline/non-viable tier of usefulness due to recent buffs to metaweapons)

And for the oh-so-personal dramatic end note: as an altoholic and buildcrafter, the aforementioned problems are causing Kitty to find very little fun in Tyria. Until things are rebalanced, missing relics added in better way and legendary relics released, Kitty's probably on a hiatus. Buildcrafting is just too costly+bothersome and there's no point with missing vital options and most results being ineffective already in theory.

[Nuldric.1239]

From my perspective, problem remains always the same...people getting out of their "comfort zone", they only want to do things they like, they are used to do and fear of changes. Not my problem, but I understand and feel for them. I'm shy person and used to be the same, fear of changes and discomfort is real. But in the end, nobody can avoid changes in a long run.

To the matter of OP. I agree with you, I love this expansion, with a few tweaks the Vault, again, maybe only from my perspective, is the best addition to game since mounts. New masteries are great and meaningful. Story is immersive. Maps are cool, I don't even mind assets reuse. Relic system has big potential, people just need to adapt.

8.5/10

edited P.S. for all complainers type of "Don't fix what is not broken.": This mindset won't get you anywhere, won't push you forward, it means you're stuck. I live up to "When something is working doesn't mean it can't be improved". 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Nuldric.1239

[Sarrs.4831]

11 hours ago, SouthPaw.9705 said:

EoD was ruining the game with...(hmm what was the complaint about EoD again? )

 

pandas break the tone of the game, guild wars 2 was gritty and then they added these panda people!!!

[Ashen.2907]

11 hours ago, LolzImSquishy.4978 said:

If they complain the way I've seen EVERYONE complain, and its really so bad and they are that mad, then go play another game? WoW has options for people 😄

If, "everyone," is complaining then clearly the expansion is not very good. Any company that produces a product that all of their customers express disatisfaction with needs to reconsider their decision making.

 

[Gerebos.1065]

There is only 1 thing in SoTo which is good in my opinion.

The lore and extinct races are now can be seen and met,the Dwarves,man we need  as playable race,I know it cannot because of story but we need them somehow.

 

 

[Deihnyx.6318]

I think OP is forgetting something. Feedback, positive or negative, shows that people care. The day you get 0 feedback for a release is when you should start to worry.

That said, yes, there's a lot of hyperboles, yes, there's a lot of negativism, because people have their habits and Anet has pushed some heavy changes on a system that was there since pretty much forever it comes with some questionable decisions. Sure it sucks, but I can't help but think that a lot of this could have been avoided this time around by having better communication around the Wizard's Vault.

I'm not actually sure why they released it with the first wave, unless they genuinely didn't think there was going to be some pushback? But if they didn't know that's kind of concerning too. I mean, there's some glaring issues with that system. GW2 is a MMO that built a reputation for being welcoming to the more "casual" crowd (I don't necessarily agree with it but...) and decisions like giving out random dailies different for everyone was always going to be controversial, same with removing choice for what dailies to do. There's a lot of good with that system, but they really went out of their way to lock things down (you pick your type of dailies and then you're locked in for the day, why??).
There's some positive too. It gets rids of people who don't actually play and are just there for logging. It makes it so you can engage with the content more and pick your rewards, but that's not the first thing that a lot of people see. They see that they will have to change their habits and for the worst (for now).

I don't think it would take much more than a communication acknowledging some of the missteps to shut down the negativism.

Give it a few days, maybe then you'll start reading more about the positive feedback (like the story being probably one of their best so far, and as far as I'm concerned, the first map is one of my new favorites).

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Deihnyx.6318

[FalanuLachance.4576]

@OP: Who are you to take away my right to complain about a disadvantage I now have as a player who hasn't stepped into any expansion yet?

[Sylvi.8372]

I actually enjoyed the expansion.

• Love the lore (finally freed from 10 years+ of the 6 Elder Dragons & Aurene),
• flying maps (thank goodness no underwater 🤣),
• flying mount upgrades (I love the Skyscale even more now) ,
• and the cadence of future releases.
• Flying maps feel like a dream come true with this game's mount and mastery system.
• Plus, Zojja returning was something we all asked for since HoT.

We have a rough date on releases, plus GW2's business model w/o a monthly sub is more sustainable if they have regular expac. (If GW2 stays profitable, our game servers will continue to exist.) 

Business model-wise & community morale-wise, it's great we don't have a 3 to 5 year drought on an expac/strike/fractal announcement, wondering if GW2 will be continued or not.

They also have time & resources now to focus on QoL, bugs, et cetera. I also like that we don't have new elite specs. Balancing (and remembering how to play) 27 elite specs + 9 core classes is already unwieldy.

I view any problems with the Relic system and Wizard's Vault as growing pains. It's great that we've divorced Rune Stats from the 6th bonus and can mix and match. It feels nice that we're improving an antiquated and limiting daily rewards system. It's a sign they care. Heck in other games, a seasonal battle pass costs money. There's even gem store items in there. Change may hurt for now, but it's necessary for the game going forward.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Chrysline.2317

[rrusse.7058]

1 hour ago, Deihnyx.6318 said:

I think OP is forgetting something. Feedback, positive or negative, shows that people care. The day you get 0 feedback for a release is when you should start to worry.

Very good point.

People tend to imagine games reaching the end of their life cycle is some sort of huge controversy and it all goes up in flames.

When more often than not, it's a slow and quiet end where people just disappear from the game. They just stop logging in 1 day here, then another day there. Then not at all.

A game stops having a viable population and it put into maintenance mode and then ultimately has the plug pulled.

I think we are far from that here as we are all here discussing things one way or the other.

[KindredPhoenyx.8976]

I give SOTO an 8 out of 10.

Criticisms:

- relics need a rework, and runes should not have been egregiously nerfed as hard as they have been with the removal of set bonuses.

- a certain cliche line got tiring after the second time, because Marvel-esque writing I guess, and the rift rehash as filler to stretch out the story was also a headache but I persevered.

Otherwise: I agree.

I've been enjoying the expansion so far, and despite the overwhelming negativity of the forums, I'm not going to let people's nay saying stop me, and neither should you (the reader -- and OP). I like the changes to the dailies and the fact there's an in-game earnable mount skin (for once) and the characters are actually decently written compared to the mess of the last 2 patches (and I tip my hat off to people who enjoyed What Lies Within/Beneath, more power to you), the zones are aesthetically pleasing to look at (if not mildly tedious to traverse) and I've particularly enjoyed the atmosphere the music provides from the hard work the composers put in to bring the world to life. Oh and the artists. Y'all have my kitten respect for those load screens and asset designs; I know complexity when I see it.

It was certainly a fresh air to come back to something familiar feeling - being back on Tyria, that is rather than some far off distant lands across the seas.

 

[eutha six.5647]

Complaints are healthy for a game-- being a fanboy no matter what is thrown at you is not

[Sahne.6950]

@ dat rubi

• The Soulbeast f1 skill of the Juvenile Boar uses PvE Damagevalues inside of PvP! 

It is screwing with the balance!

Can you guys please look into that?  

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Jianyu.7065]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

If, "everyone," is complaining then clearly the expansion is not very good. Any company that produces a product that all of their customers express disatisfaction with needs to reconsider their decision making.

 

"Everyone" isn't complaining though....

[Teknomancer.4895]

The core issue that people are really complaining about the loss of player choice that was bundled with the expansion, rather than about the expansion itself per se. It's right there in the word itself; an expansion should make things bigger, not smaller! The play-your-own-way thing and the never-lose-progress thing have been basically dead for quite some time, but this unnecessarily restrictive "expansion" really drives the final nail into both of those coffins.

• Massive nerf to runes, many effects simply gone = loss of player choice
• New daily system requires a fixed number of tasks, with no alternatives for those who dislike/cannot do certain content = loss of player choice
  • Selecting more game modes does not expand your options, it merely expands the pool they draw from; the number of options you get is still limiting

I haven't seen very much complaining about the story, or the new zone's maps/events, etc. However, lots of people are very justifiably raising hell about the runes/relics and the dailies, so that is where ANet needs to focus its energy on restoring player choice, instead of doubling down on imposing arbitrary limitations and taking stuff away. I won't even go into the whole legendary runes controversy since I have no dog in that fight, but unlike the my-skyscale-isn't-special-anymore whining, it's absolutely a legitimate complaint that once again comes down to loss of player choice (and player resources).

I am terrible at jumping puzzles (and therefore hate them), so when those are in the PvE dailies that cuts me out because there is no alternative: once again, loss of player choice. Requiring group content (dungeons etc) for individual character dailies doesn't even make sense, especially when you can't decide to do that particular daily with a different character that might be built better for such content -- there's no guarantee that character will even have the same daily in the list.

Loss of player choice is the obvious core of many complaints, and it's a 100% legitimate complaint. Yes, there's grumbling about asset re-use and questionable dialogue along with some assorted miscellaneous gripes, but restore player choice and a lot of the complaints will likely subside.

[Tiamat.8254]

I don't generally mind complaining so long as it's constructive. Usually it's just whining with little substance. There are some great things about soto but also they have made some really horrible decisions. 

For example the new skyscale mastery line. It's rehashing 2 masteries that already exist. Yes they add a little bit on top but I just don't care. I have zero interest in those masteries.

Another example. Playing through the story with another player, the opening bit of soto should have been epic, but instead I was floating orb doing nothing... Also bits where I wasn't a floating orb I couldn't interact or influence the story in any way, so what is the point in doing the story with another player/s?

I have more examples but don't want to make this a long post no one will read.

I am mostly in favour of a lot of new features. I love the relic system for example, which I know it's controversial. I used to hate having those special 6th rune abilities locked to a certain combination as when I do want something different I needed to change all my runes. PITA. And now it opens up really nice possibilities for my builds that previously I wouldn't bother with because of the annoyance of changing the runes. Yes even with legendary runes this was annoying.

Also I prefer the ability to choose what to spend AA on for dailies. Most of the stuff I had no care for. I bet people are really hurting that they don't get their repair canisters... Not to mention the boring lack of anything new for each 30 day login reward cycle. The feature needs work, but it's a promising start.

Overall I am not disappointed but it feels rushed and a lack of testing or feedback on new systems which should have been avoided. This is partly why I'm worried about the decision to release another expac in a years time. You can't maintain high quality unless you're running 2 different Dev studios that are well managed with a shared goal. 

Just my opinion. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Tiamat.8254
Typo

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

25 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

The core issue that people are really complaining about the loss of player choice that was bundled with the expansion, rather than about the expansion itself per se. It's right there in the word itself; an expansion should make things bigger, not smaller! The play-your-own-way thing and the never-lose-progress thing have been basically dead for quite some time, but this unnecessarily restrictive "expansion" really drives the final nail into both of those coffins.

• Massive nerf to runes, many effects simply gone = loss of player choice
• New daily system requires a fixed number of tasks, with no alternatives for those who dislike/cannot do certain content = loss of player choice
  • Selecting more game modes does not expand your options, it merely expands the pool they draw from; the number of options you get is still limiting

I haven't seen very much complaining about the story, or the new zone's maps/events, etc. However, lots of people are very justifiably raising hell about the runes/relics and the dailies, so that is where ANet needs to focus its energy on restoring player choice, instead of doubling down on imposing arbitrary limitations and taking stuff away. I won't even go into the whole legendary runes controversy since I have no dog in that fight, but unlike the my-skyscale-isn't-special-anymore whining, it's absolutely a legitimate complaint that once again comes down to loss of player choice (and player resources).

I am terrible at jumping puzzles (and therefore hate them), so when those are in the PvE dailies that cuts me out because there is no alternative: once again, loss of player choice. Requiring group content (dungeons etc) for individual character dailies doesn't even make sense, especially when you can't decide to do that particular daily with a different character that might be built better for such content -- there's no guarantee that character will even have the same daily in the list.

Loss of player choice is the obvious core of many complaints, and it's a 100% legitimate complaint. Yes, there's grumbling about asset re-use and questionable dialogue along with some assorted miscellaneous gripes, but restore player choice and a lot of the complaints will likely subside.

Your definition of player choice means returning to a system in which you didn’t have the choice to pick what stats you want with the effect that you wanted to play. If you do the math, even with only 40 relics, you have 99x40 choices (possible effect+stat combinations) now over just 99 choices.

Just pointing out that if you intend to give good feedback, knowing the content of what you are saying actually matters.

what you actually want are the missing 60 rune effects…and you want the relic effects to be meaningful. As do I... it’s really that simple, because the current relic system does in fact give you exponentially more choices (3900 possible combinations). So spend your time critiquing the relic effects, and telling them to implement the rest of the expansion…not defending an old broken and frankly way more restrictive system.

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Teknomancer.4895]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Your definition of player choice means returning to a system in which you didn’t have the choice to pick what stats you want with the effect that you wanted to play. If you do the math, even with only 40 relics, you have 99^40 choices (possible effect+stat combinations) now over just 99 choices.

Just pointing out that if you intend to give good feedback, knowing the content of what you are saying actually matters.

Please indicate where I suggested returning to the previous rune system. Player choice has been restricted, due to the removal of rune effects. The fact that a handful of those were moved to relics is not relevant to the effects that simply vanished. No relic replacement for the missing effects = loss of player choice.

Just pointing out that when responding to someone, you should respond to what was actually said, rather than setting up a strawman to knock down.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Please indicate where I suggested returning to the previous rune system. Player choice has been restricted, due to the removal of rune effects. The fact that a handful of those were moved to relics is not relevant to the effects that simply vanished. No relic replacement for the missing effects = loss of player choice.

You used this language "restoring player choice," restoring implies that whatever existed before, was better, which is just not true...before, you only had 99 choices. You now have 99 x 40 choices. That is in fact the opposite of loss in choices.

Like I clarified for you, in fact to help your case so that you can give good feedback, is that what you actually want is the remaining relic effects (the 60 or so that weren't implemented). This has nothing to do with "losing" choices because it's a factually incorrect statement as the relic system gives you more choices.

For instance...I can now choose to take Rune of the Scholar with Relic of the Monk...or Rune of the Scholar with Relic of the Trooper...or I could take Rune of Leadership with Relic of Cerus, or Rune of the Brawler with Rune of Cerus and so on...that's 3900 possible choices I can make.

Being clear about the distinction between the relic system as a system, and wanting relic effects back is critical. I agree with your message though in full...giving players choices, but try not to misinterpret my actions.

  

Edited August 24, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Jianyu.7065 said:

"Everyone" isn't complaining though....

Indeed. That is why I put that part of my post in quotes. I was quoting the OP, and showing how his own statement counters his point, not making an assertion of my own.