Scourge might be a bit too strong (49k dps)

[Warscythes.9307]

10 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

In the long term it doesn't matter. Tell me how X DPS compared to Y DPS matters at all, cause at the end of day if matters to you that much, touch grass? 

Doesn't matter how long someone played. I've mained Necro before HoT, lol. 

IF content added is making powercreep like relics and stuff, then why does that call for a nerf of a class? Lol shouldn't the content that is adding it be nerfed? 

Your logic isn't matching 

Because content stop being fun once damage reach an absurd level. Content that used to provide some sort of fun becomes a loot pinata. If you design content, then you expect it to perform correct?

A very obvious example is in shattered observatory fractal CM. The damage is so high even pre-SoTo that the boss can't even finish his dialogue before the next phase starts. You see him do maybe 1-2 attacks before he has to despawn. Is this REALLY how you want the game to be? This is suppose to be harder content, imagine how easier content is suppose to be. You are literally not seeing the full fight because it is being skipped due to very high damage. 

Also yes, I am calling for nerfs overall. The fact is everybody, scourge included is overpowered even before SoTo. The last round of massive buffs bumped the damage way too much. That IS the "new" stuff. Also to nobody's surprise, Anet historically is really bad at balance and everyone knew weaponmaster will introduce some broken builds, this isn't news to anybody that pays remotely little bit of attention to the game. There just needs to be attention brought to it.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

But you haven't really said what needs to be addressed lol. Just said nerf it, it's not fun for me.

Ultimately, that's the only thing that the devs look at. You can provide thousand of your own suggestion or point out at very specific things, the only thing that will register to the devs is whether player find the current situation "fun" or not. They will do their own change based on their own idea to maybe "fix" the fun factor.

[Obtena.7952]

I think people calling for nerfs because '50K DPS' are forgetting that these numbers are not typically achievable for numerous reasons in real situations ingame with a significant majority of players. 

3 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

It does matter, I just gave my reasoning. Too high damage leads to broken content as mechanics are skipped too easily and you are not getting the full experience. 

Sure, but does going from 40K to 50K on a class significantly increase the number broken encounters leading to this result? I would be surprised if encounter design was SO dependent on DPS in that way, given that most high performance encounters where this DPS increase is most impactful to potentially breaking that content it's designed around 5 or 10 players. 

I mean, one can also think of it like this: if 50K is a problem, so is 40K because it's not really the ceiling DPS that's the problem. It's the aggregate DPS of the highest performing team vs. the average team. 

Still, based on history, we will likely get tuned down here but I don't think it will be based on how much 50K breaks encounter mechanics. It's more likely because we know Anet isn't comfortable with a spec that can deliver great Healing, Alacrity and DPS in one package. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

2 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

The latest damage change, Scourge received burning on F2, increased torment damage and increased burn damage are the 3 major ones. That is the very first place I would start especially given pistol has great synergy with the torment trait. Burning should get a tone down as well. You want the GM trait to provide the most benefit compared to your majors. How to nerf Scourge isn't exactly difficult so I haven't spelled it out. But the general direction is fairly straightforward.

Arti relic very likely need to be taken a look at as well as every single condi class got a big boost if you are able to utilize it and many many classes can. This however is in regards to Scourge in particular.

So you are saying that scourge as a whole needs a nerf 

Cause not fun for you, but fun for otherss

They gave f2 burn.

That there's actually synergy between a weapon and trait but you want the trait nerfed?

Some relics do well on scourge while other relics do well on other classes?

Your math isn' mathing still, how does that relate to scourge as a whole needs a nerf

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Ultimately, that's the only thing that the devs look at. You can provide thousand of your own suggestion or point out at very specific things, the only thing that will register to the devs is whether player find the current situation "fun" or not. They will do their own change based on their own idea to maybe "fix" the fun factor.

But it's ONE player saying I don't find it fun, yet not mention or even suggesting what's wrong/how to fix lol.

Despite their own change or not. If you come to the forums saying nerf X and not give reasons or suggestions then there's really no point in posting on the forums is there? 

Maybe they don't take suggestions/ player feedback seriously is cause there is nothing serious if the only the only thing you got to say is nerf X cause you personally have a problem with X  

Edited August 25, 2023 by porkchopMCgee.6193

[Warscythes.9307]

27 minutes ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

So you are saying that scourge as a whole needs a nerf 

Cause not fun for you, but fun for otherss

They gave f2 burn.

That there's actually synergy between a weapon and trait but you want the trait nerfed?

Some relics do well on scourge while other relics do well on other classes?

Your math isn' mathing still, how does that relate to scourge as a whole needs a nerf

Scourge as a dps needs to be nerfed. Heal and alac dps Scourge from what I understand is ok. Might be wrong about alac dps but I haven't seen anything too outlandish yet. I gave my reason above. If you just want to stick to "because I don't find it fun" then I have nothing else to say, because I can't read for you.

I am curious, have you tried posting about this in literally any other forum than the necro subforum? We all know every profession's forum is an echo chamber and necro is by far one of the worst. Try actually talk to people that benched the numbers or hell if you don't want to, check out reddit. Don't just sit in this one place and feel oppressed because I guarantee you, is not just me who hold this opinion.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

3 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Scourge as a dps needs to be nerfed. Heal and alac dps Scourge from what I understand is ok. Might be wrong about alac dps but I haven't seen anything too outlandish yet. I gave my reason above. If you just want to stick to "because I don't find it fun" then I have nothing else to say, because I can't read for you.

I am curious, have you tried posting about this in literally any other forum than the necro subforum? We all know every profession's forum is an echo chamber and necro is by far one of the worst. Try actually talk to people that benched the numbers or hell if you don't want to, check out reddit. Don't just sit in this one place and feel oppressed because I guarantee you, is not just me who hold this opinion.

Oppressed? No. Laughing at all the reasons you want it nerfed, yes .  And I can't read for you, at the end of day it doesn't matter about the dps of X vs Y.

 

When you come to realize that, you'll stop complaining on forums.

[Warscythes.9307]

1 minute ago, porkchopMCgee.6193 said:

Oppressed? No. Laughing at all the reasons you want it nerfed, yes .  And I can't read for you, at the end of day it doesn't matter about the dps of X vs Y.

 

When you come to realize that, you'll stop complaining on forums.

If you disagree with the reasons then that's on you. It doesn't make it wrong. Let me give another extreme example, if the damage is 1m per second. This definitely would be a problem right? I feel I don't have to explain why that is a bad idea. So yes, the DPS of a class will matter because it fundamentally change the content's experience. Now there is obviously a big difference between 50k and 1m, but I hope it at least demonstrate that with a suffice enough number, there will be a problem and I think 50k is breaking it given how Scourge is designed to be. 

My word of advice, talk to people in hardstuck or snowcrow discord, or reddit if you want. Don't just read the necro subforum. This is not some just one guy opinion. The game being powercreeped and Scourge overpowered is not something new. Borden your horizon and listen to others opinion instead of a class subforum's echo chamber.

 

[Shiyo.3578]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Personally, I think that all professions/e-specs that have builds that reach 40k+ dps need some nerfs. Let's keep in mind that through all of HoT and PoF the content was cleared easily despite golem dps being 10k+ below what we see commonly since EoD release.

Also, right now, one have to admit that the damage output of conditions builds is overshadowing the damage output of strike damage builds. The drawback of conditions builds is supposed to be the ramp up but this drawback have mostly been ironed out through years of balance patchs (that's especially true in PvE where necromancer used to be the one that really struggled due to a long condi ramp up but, instead of bringing other professions condi builds down to the necromancer's standard they brought the necromancer up to other's standard). 

 

Agreed, sadly Anet is going to keep buffing as they treat this game like a mobile game and are scared of making players mad. 50k will be the new 40k for this expac.

Which is really bad because it makes all the old content boring to do and greatly lowers the longevity of the game.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

>Scourge
>Necromancer Specialization
>No. 1 DPS
my gosh... The incoming nerf... THE HORROR 😱
.
.
.
let just hope it doesn't affect all other necros 🥺

[Tanachi.3951]

6 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Scourge as a dps needs to be nerfed. Heal and alac dps Scourge from what I understand is ok. Might be wrong about alac dps but I haven't seen anything too outlandish yet. I gave my reason above. If you just want to stick to "because I don't find it fun" then I have nothing else to say, because I can't read for you.

I am curious, have you tried posting about this in literally any other forum than the necro subforum? We all know every profession's forum is an echo chamber and necro is by far one of the worst. Try actually talk to people that benched the numbers or hell if you don't want to, check out reddit. Don't just sit in this one place and feel oppressed because I guarantee you, is not just me who hold this opinion.

Reddit, lmao. The echo chamber by excelence, with a voting system so only the posts that I like get to be seen. Sure thing.

I see your point, but i dont think that a class doing 7k more dps on a golem with full stacks of boon is going to break the game or make it too easy or whatever. Mainly because the vast majority of people doesn't even get close to those numbers, and the content is still easy because you can just zerg most world metas and bosses. The only place where those numbers are relevant are raids and maybe strikes, and even then the numbers dont usually get close to benchmarks.

Also, it's not just necro. I dont think any class should be nerfed. It feels really bad when your class gets murdered because anet actively ignores the feedback threads and instead browse reddit for threads like "PLEASE NERF X IT DOES MORE DAMAGE THAN ME SPAMMING LONGBOW 1 WITH MY SOULBEAST" to make the patch notes.

[Furball.1236]

Balancing should be discussed over statistics (such as the median and max DPS of each elite spec in each encounter as you can find in GW2Wingman) or between players who learned to pull off the classes they want to discuss about.

It is clearly not the case here, as only within 3 hours after the golem benchmark video was uploaded, people started citing the benchmark and start calling nerf of the class based on it.

I'm just here to give people a list of builds that perform very well similarly (in my initial post), hoping they'll try those classes themselves before calling for nerfs on one class just because someone cited a golem benchmark done by one of the very top players who pulls off a few times higher DPS than 80% of the player base.

 

I don't mind if scourge gets some adjustment but I hate the trend of whenever a bench that overperforms by a few k (which equals to a few %) comes out, people start crying about "OP," "broken," "nerf," etc. etc. Such difference does not be reacted with huge nerfs that will spoil the fun of the class.

If any adjustment is to be made, I would personally suggest moving the DPS from Sadistic Searing to Dhuumfire and reducing life force generation from pistols when not played by harbingers. I think the class mechanic uniqueness of scourge is having to pay attention to 2 things (the F-skill timings and weapon/utility skill timings) at the same time and also be being mindful about life force management. I want to have that layer of class mechanic back to the gameplay.

12 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

My word of advice, talk to people in hardstuck or snowcrow discord, or reddit if you want. Don't just read the necro subforum. This is not some just one guy opinion. The game being powercreeped and Scourge overpowered is not something new. Borden your horizon and listen to others opinion instead of a class subforum's echo chamber.

90% of people commenting on hardstuck discord, snowcrow discord, or reddit are as much experienced as anywhere else. Comments like "Wtf I woke up to scg now benching 49k" are as superficial as they can get, yet they appear in those platforms as frequent as in random youtube comment sections. Getting sense of the state of a class based on these conversations is nowhere close to being objective or making sense. The only exceptions are to discuss with people who benchmarked (as you said in another post) or people who've performed well in real fights (which you can find in GW2Wingman).

I strongly recommend you to play all the classes before you comment on them, instead of basing your opinions  on random comments on discord or elsewhere.

17 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

I am honestly curious, if you are willing to spend the time to google benchmarks or get it from discord. Have you tried actually asking the people there how they feel about the overall dps situation? Especially for scourge?

I have no idea why you're being rude/sarcastic here. I play all the 27 elite specs + some cores and I keep track of what others have done to keep myself updated.

And I do near 100% benchmark and score one of the highest DPS records on logs, while I play these other elite specs as well and out DPS scourges in the same squad. You don't need to remember anything of what I said about me as a player, but I'm just here trying to tell people that there are plenty of other classes you can play with fun and outperform scourges in the real fights based on my experiences. With the exception of berserkers and mirage, all the builds I listed do perform well in non-golem fights like scourge because they're flexible.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Furball.1236

[Shiyo.3578]

8 minutes ago, Furball.1236 said:

(which equals to a few %)

It's over 20% more DPS from IBS. That isn't " a few percent".

This game can barely handle 40k DPS specs, 50k will destroy it.

[Furball.1236]

17 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

It's over 20% more DPS from IBS. That isn't " a few percent".

This game can barely handle 40k DPS specs, 50k will destroy it.

Read my original post pls because I'm talking about that.

Edit: Also you made this post to specifically talk about scourge and suggest its nerf, instead of talking about power creep in general. I agree 50k DPS is too much, but if you want to discuss about power creep in general, this thread with this title and url citation in this subforum is misleading

Edited August 26, 2023 by Furball.1236

[Tiviana.2650]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:34 AM, Warscythes.9307 said:

Absolutely not, the entire game is incredibly powercreeped at the moment. 40k DPS as the average was already over the top, you do not want the standard for damage to go up even higher. GW2 was not designed to be a vertical progression game and the recent powercreep has already caused cracks in some of the older systems. Older raids are literally skipping mechanics due to how every single class's damage went up by anywhere from 30-50%. You do not want this to be common place, they need to start turning back the powercreep immediately and doing nothing but buffing is how you reach that point. Every single class right now can be nerfed by a minimal of 10-15% and it still likely will not be enough. Scourge is just the outlier of the outlier at the moment.

Raids dont matter anymore, they are obsolete.  Compare the dps to the new metas and strikes

[Warscythes.9307]

11 hours ago, Furball.1236 said:

Balancing should be discussed over statistics (such as the median and max DPS of each elite spec in each encounter as you can find in GW2Wingman) or between players who learned to pull off the classes they want to discuss about.

It is clearly not the case here, as only within 3 hours after the golem benchmark video was uploaded, people started citing the benchmark and start calling nerf of the class based on it.

I'm just here to give people a list of builds that perform very well similarly (in my initial post), hoping they'll try those classes themselves before calling for nerfs on one class just because someone cited a golem benchmark done by one of the very top players who pulls off a few times higher DPS than 80% of the player base.

 

I don't mind if scourge gets some adjustment but I hate the trend of whenever a bench that overperforms by a few k (which equals to a few %) comes out, people start crying about "OP," "broken," "nerf," etc. etc. Such difference does not be reacted with huge nerfs that will spoil the fun of the class.

If any adjustment is to be made, I would personally suggest moving the DPS from Sadistic Searing to Dhuumfire and reducing life force generation from pistols when not played by harbingers. I think the class mechanic uniqueness of scourge is having to pay attention to 2 things (the F-skill timings and weapon/utility skill timings) at the same time and also be being mindful about life force management. I want to have that layer of class mechanic back to the gameplay.

90% of people commenting on hardstuck discord, snowcrow discord, or reddit are as much experienced as anywhere else. Comments like "Wtf I woke up to scg now benching 49k" are as superficial as they can get, yet they appear in those platforms as frequent as in random youtube comment sections. Getting sense of the state of a class based on these conversations is nowhere close to being objective or making sense. The only exceptions are to discuss with people who benchmarked (as you said in another post) or people who've performed well in real fights (which you can find in GW2Wingman).

I strongly recommend you to play all the classes before you comment on them, instead of basing your opinions  on random comments on discord or elsewhere.

I have no idea why you're being rude/sarcastic here. I play all the 27 elite specs + some cores and I keep track of what others have done to keep myself updated.

And I do near 100% benchmark and score one of the highest DPS records on logs, while I play these other elite specs as well and out DPS scourges in the same squad. You don't need to remember anything of what I said about me as a player, but I'm just here trying to tell people that there are plenty of other classes you can play with fun and outperform scourges in the real fights based on my experiences. With the exception of berserkers and mirage, all the builds I listed do perform well in non-golem fights like scourge because they're flexible.

I am going to quote this entire thing because I am too lazy to quote the individual points, but I really just want to talk about one thing. 

Scourge is one of the most consistent damage class in the entire game. Every class will loss damage in fights but Scourge is one of the class that will lose the least. I feel this is extremely obvious. So the fact its golem benchmark is literally the top is such an obvious outlier. If you do bench then you should know this. What class do you think realistically will perform better when talking about translating from golem to real fight situations? cvirt is potentially the only one that I can think of off the top of my head. Everyone else on the list is either melee, depends heavily on stationary aoe or less tanky which are the main factors that affect real boss dps. I mean I just don't understand how you are willing to spend time to grind benchmarks and raid and not understand what causes dps loss in real fights and why Scourge is one of the classes that is least affected by mechanics. 

I too play all 27 elite specs, I don't play all of them consistently since most are for raids and I keep an eye on general performance as well and everyone has received massive powercreeps. I am sure all the builds will perform fine, in fact more than fine. They are all overpowered. I am also saying literally every single builds you posted needs to be nerfed. Scourge just performs better in non golem fights because of the points I listed out. Typically I would agree that looking just at golem dps would be ridiculous, but this is Scourge. If you think this highly of the people who do benchmarks then ask the necro benchmarkers or hell any benchmarker in snowcrow, I dare you to find even one person to say the current Scourge is anywhere near ok at the moment or even the pre-SoTo levels.

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[Furball.1236]

6 hours ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

What class do you think realistically will perform better when talking about translating from golem to real fight situations? cvirt is potentially the only one that I can think of off the top of my head. Everyone else on the list is either melee, depends heavily on stationary aoe or less tanky which are the main factors that affect real boss dps. I mean I just don't understand how you are willing to spend time to grind benchmarks and raid and not understand what causes dps loss in real fights and why Scourge is one of the classes that is least affected by mechanics. 

It just sounds like you don't know how to work around the mechanics happening in the real fights. The whole point of getting skills in the real fight is to minimize the negative impact of fight mechanics to your performance, be flexible of your skill priorities, take advantage of what you have such as burst and others. If you think cvit and scourge are the only classes because you can step back 600 unit away where there is no combat mechanics happening around you anymore, you should stop playing them and focus on actually learning the fight skills.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:06 AM, Birdie.3869 said:

I wish snow crows was deleted outright. Golem testing sucks, show me dps numbers on a boss or two that fights back and moves.
I'm not saying dps isn't really high on scourge with pistol, it is, but man they better not drag scourge the same direction they dragged catalyst just because standing still smacking a large hitbox does big numbers.

Ok.

https://dps.report/y9hD-20230827-010340_sab
https://dps.report/slWM-20230827-005604_gors
https://dps.report/0eYc-20230827-002220_boss
https://dps.report/fwh5-20230827-003903_olc
https://dps.report/bIdd-20230826-214757_kana
https://dps.report/AU0h-20230825-204711_li
https://dps.report/vfNP-20230825-203040_ankka
https://dps.report/8X0Z-20230825-202325_trin

Scourge is the king of dps uptime. If anything scourge having high benchmark is double bad because this means that in an actual fight it has the advantage of high uptime and a high bench. Scourge should bench the lowest among all dps builds because of this. Golem testing does not suck. Good players can do golem dps on most of the bosses unless they force range like ankka.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Furball.1236 said:

It just sounds like you don't know how to work around the mechanics happening in the real fights. The whole point of getting skills in the real fight is to minimize the negative impact of fight mechanics to your performance, be flexible of your skill priorities, take advantage of what you have such as burst and others. If you think cvit and scourge are the only classes because you can step back 600 unit away where there is no combat mechanics happening around you anymore, you should stop playing them and focus on actually learning the fight skills.

How exactly do you want to deal with forced ranged uptime thanks to spread circles as a weaver? You have exactly 1 range skills on air wh5. Everything else is melee. The point is there is almost no mechanic in the game the negatively impacts scourge. Show me what you do on ankka if you have bad rng as a weaver. Scourge does not care. Its ranged. What are you doing when the boss choses you to go ranged for add kite? 0 dps for you unless you play scourge who does not care at all.

Scourge is not optimal in very few places. Places with reduced armor where power builds shine or extremely short phases where strong burst matters more. But scourge is so busted that it even works and pulls ok'ish numbers on short fractal phases while it destroys every boss with longer phases. Just a matter of time until we will have 3+ scourges in fractals again.

[Kozumi.5816]

Scourge should not have a viable pure DPS option. It should be a support alac and healer only. It's never taxed for it's obscene utility at all with it's DPS numbers and it keeps causing issues.

We went over this twice already with this company, once during POF and once during IBS, why do they keep making the same mistake?+

[Warscythes.9307]

6 hours ago, Furball.1236 said:

It just sounds like you don't know how to work around the mechanics happening in the real fights. The whole point of getting skills in the real fight is to minimize the negative impact of fight mechanics to your performance, be flexible of your skill priorities, take advantage of what you have such as burst and others. If you think cvit and scourge are the only classes because you can step back 600 unit away where there is no combat mechanics happening around you anymore, you should stop playing them and focus on actually learning the fight skills.

You are right, better play pattern and play style will minimize mechanic disruption to damage uptime. The fact remains that having range or non dependency on field aoe like Scourge or cvirt IS an advantage in many situations. I don't mean cases like you are stepping outside of the group so you get no boons or no healing but rather fast boss movement or unavoidable damage that would knock you out of scholar bonus. Obvious examples be things like twin largos, explain to me how do you expect to play something like cata that depends on your fields and is melee dependent when the boss runs around every 2 seconds. You can mnimize the difference of course via better play. But you are lying to yourself that having range is not a massive advantage here. Ankka CM I argue range also benefits because you want to reposition her and be able to range while inside the safe zone makes it so much easier. There are only so much better play can do and I am surprised you think playing better can just somehow nullify the gap. This is not FF14 where melee uptime is basically the same as range uptime where learning the pattern is enough. There is no way around it.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Warscythes.9307

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:06 PM, Birdie.3869 said:

I wish snow crows was deleted outright. Golem testing sucks, show me dps numbers on a boss or two that fights back and moves.
I'm not saying dps isn't really high on scourge with pistol, it is, but man they better not drag scourge the same direction they dragged catalyst just because standing still smacking a large hitbox does big numbers.

I assure you that is easier to get into the 49k dps line in a real raid scenario using a Scourge that doing 41.8k on Condition Weaver, or doing 44k on Condition Holosmith.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Scourge should not have a viable pure DPS option. It should be a support alac and healer only. It's never taxed for it's obscene utility at all with it's DPS numbers and it keeps causing issues.

We went over this twice already with this company, once during POF and once during IBS, why do they keep making the same mistake?+

I disagree with the statement that scourge should not have a viable pure dps option. All other "healer" specs have now pure dps build options that are close if not already viable, there is no reason for scourge to not have this option as well. (the scourge's utility isn't any more obscene than it's competitors' unsung utility)

The main issue currently is mostly the effect of the synergy between harbinger's pistol and demonic lore. Scourge's dps wasn't really outstanding before they got access to the weapon.

My personal opinion is that harbinger's tools (both shroud and pistol skills) should have been focused on poison instead of torment which would have saved us from this ordeal and would help balance and differentiate harbinger's identity as well.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Just change pistol conditions to bleeding/poison or at least on #1, it will break the smash buttons synergy with  demonic lore.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Just change pistol conditions to bleeding/poison or at least on #1, it will break the smash buttons synergy with  demonic lore.

Wouldn't that screw up though Harbinger in the process? You can't really change anything on the pistol without messing up Harbinger. You would need to need to change traits on the Harbi side as well to fix what you changed which may or may not work.