Power Creep, The game is too easy [Merged]

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:03 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Ironically, the OP complains that SotO brings power creep for builds to 40K, pretending like we haven't had builds that EVER did over 40K? Someone didn't do their homework .... 🤨

Can you quote where OP said that?

 

e: ok, apparently you can't. Looks like -ironically- you didn't do your homework 😅

Edited October 11, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sweetbread.3678]

On 10/6/2023 at 3:22 PM, Rauderi.8706 said:

Wanna get rid of the power creep? 

Attribute values need to come way down. 

And let's be honest, after 10+ years, the entire game needs a refactor on stats and itemization. The current model with 30+ attribute sets (and most not even worth it) is just muddy and bad.

This. Obviously stats should exist in an rpg, but the impact they have on performance in this game is either absurdly high (offense) or virtually nonexistent (defense). 

The three main issues with GW2 scaling (imo) are:

1. Stat weights being way too high in general, especially for offense.
2. Defense and support stats being largely ignorable due to active defenses not requiring a stat investment to be effective and then encounter design eschewing passive damage for large avoidable spikes, combine those two and you get full "glass" builds with no real survivability tradeoff and no real need for pure healing supports in group content. Add onto that the recent surge of boon supports that don't even require a Concentration investment and it gets even worse.
3. Multipliers being stacked multiplicatively instead of additively. Having a system where every multiplier is stronger than the one that came before is just asking for dps to spiral wildly out of control. Under the current multiplicative system six "+10% Damage" effects would be an extra 77% damage (1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 *1.1 * 1.1 = ~1.77) instead of the additive 60% it reads as (1 + .1 + .1 + .1 + .1 + .1 + .1 = 1.6); consider that +10% is actually a relatively low multiplier for this game and it's pretty easy to see how that scaling could get out of hand.

All 3 of those issues end up power creeping content in their own way. #2 results in pure glass setups for 90% of instanced content because sustain is largely ignorable. #1 and #3 pull a double whammy of naturally inflating things at the stat level, while also forcing the devs to design content around a gigantic performance range between players. With everything so overweighted and multipliers scaling out of control, the difference between an optimized and unoptimized setup ends up being about 1000%+; we end up with a situation where most content is ridiculously easy for anyone that understands how to gear/spec, because it also has to be tuned for the casual player that doesn't understand those systems (which is common due to those systems over-complication and their abundance of "trap choices") and does less than half of the dps they could be doing (and just from stats alone, not even from actual gameplay skill disparity).

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:22 PM, Rauderi.8706 said:

Wanna get rid of the power creep? 

Attribute values need to come way down. 

And let's be honest, after 10+ years, the entire game needs a refactor on stats and itemization. The current model with 30+ attribute sets (and most not even worth it) is just muddy and bad.

It's not about attribute values. Those are the same as they were in core, for the most part, and by itself are not a big problem. The real issue lies in multipliers. Not just in inter-stat effects, but also in traits, skill effects and relics. If stat cumulative effects, and damage bonuses from traits etc were additive instead of multiplicative, the whole balance would be far easier to control.

[Widebody.5071]

I see nothing wrong with a zerg manning up with one class and running rampage but let's be real, this is what the they wanted. Siege nerfed to hell and back, aoes radius and duration steadily increasing, traditional frontline classes handicapped, constantly changing landscape and structure dimensions invisible walls popping up and and the never ending complaints and posts to change things only to complain about the change want more change, that's why the above mode of play is able to exist. 

As long as it keeps happening I'll keep pointing it out. There's no excuse for it... Literally spend more effort complaining and trying to rig things instead of adapting and letting the game evolve naturally. The Parables of Servants and not to far off the mark with what's happening.

Some folks always looking for a way to game the system be it good or bad. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not about attribute values. Those are the same as they were in core, for the most part, and by itself are not a big problem. The real issue lies in multipliers. Not just in inter-stat effects, but also in traits, skill effects and relics. If stat cumulative effects, and damage bonuses from traits etc were additive instead of multiplicative, the whole balance would be far easier to control.

This.

[Burnfall.9573]

4 hours ago, Widebody.5071 said:

I see nothing wrong with a zerg manning up with one class and running rampage but let's be real, this is what the they wanted. Siege nerfed to hell and back, aoes radius and duration steadily increasing, traditional frontline classes handicapped, constantly changing landscape and structure dimensions invisible walls popping up and and the never ending complaints and posts to change things only to complain about the change want more change, that's why the above mode of play is able to exist. 

As long as it keeps happening I'll keep pointing it out. There's no excuse for it... Literally spend more effort complaining and trying to rig things instead of adapting and letting the game evolve naturally. The Parables of Servants and not to far off the mark with what's happening.

Some folks always looking for a way to game the system be it good or bad. 

 

So let me ask you a question, as a Game Company who want to advertise their game as being... let me quote Anet own words in Guild Wars 2 advertisement.

 

Combat

"Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat and choose from an arsenal of professions, weapons, and playstyles. Attack on the move, dodge and roll away from enemy blows, and come to your allies’ rescue midbattle. In the open world, you can team up with every player you meet—no grouping required!

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command. As you explore Tyria, you’ll unlock a vast selection of skills, traits, and weapon options to create the heroic character you want to play.

In the world of Tyria, heroes are powerful combatants who hold their own by dodging attacks, healing themselves, and making strategic use of their unique skills. Every profession excels at combat, letting you explore the world either alone or with friends. When you join forces with other players, you’ll learn to combine your abilities into enhanced attacks, support your allies by healing and resurrecting them, and break through tough enemy defenses.

The more your character grows, the more versatile they’ll become, allowing you to adapt your tactics as needed. Sheath your daggers to finish off a fleeing enemy with a short bow. Whirl through an ally’s wall of fire to create flaming projectiles. Use skills to summon birds of prey, call down firestorms from above, warp time to speed up your attacks, and much more. Decide how you’ll play your character moment-to-moment with customizable specializations."

 

Does this advertisement statement,  support Lasers 50 man Holosmith Profession group in the video?

Oh I forgot to add this one, 

"World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!"

Should we also expect Holosmith vs Holosmith in PvP Combat on an epic scale?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Linken.6345]

1 minute ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

So let me ask you a question, as a Game Company who want to advertise their game as being... let me quote Anet own words in Guild Wars 2 advertisement.

 

Combat

"Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat and choose from an arsenal of professions, weapons, and playstyles. Attack on the move, dodge and roll away from enemy blows, and come to your allies’ rescue midbattle. In the open world, you can team up with every player you meet—no grouping required!

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command. As you explore Tyria, you’ll unlock a vast selection of skills, traits, and weapon options to create the heroic character you want to play.

In the world of Tyria, heroes are powerful combatants who hold their own by dodging attacks, healing themselves, and making strategic use of their unique skills. Every profession excels at combat, letting you explore the world either alone or with friends. When you join forces with other players, you’ll learn to combine your abilities into enhanced attacks, support your allies by healing and resurrecting them, and break through tough enemy defenses.

The more your character grows, the more versatile they’ll become, allowing you to adapt your tactics as needed. Sheath your daggers to finish off a fleeing enemy with a short bow. Whirl through an ally’s wall of fire to create flaming projectiles. Use skills to summon birds of prey, call down firestorms from above, warp time to speed up your attacks, and much more. Decide how you’ll play your character moment-to-moment with customizable specializations."

 

Does this advertisement statement,  support the 50 man Holosmith Profession group in the video?

Ofcourse it do why would it not?

Other then the weapon swap I see nothing there against 50 holosmiths since engineer is 1 of the 2 classes out of 9 that cant weapon swap in combat.

I mean if you want to really nitpic only 1 class can summon birds of prey from a skill ranger warhorn.

[Burnfall.9573]

16 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Ofcourse it do why would it not?

Other then the weapon swap I see nothing there against 50 holosmiths since engineer is 1 of the 2 classes out of 9 that cant weapon swap in combat.

I mean if you want to really nitpic only 1 class can summon birds of prey from a skill ranger warhorn.

 

I have something to say to you, I think its about time since it has been a while. You know, whenever I would see your name with the yellow wolf tag, I always would suspect that you are an Anet staff. Seriously, and that is why I would be very careful not to exceed my Rant with the state of the game knowing that, you would ban me for speaking the Truth.

You are very beyond knowledgeable of the game that I have witnessed on the forum.

Maybe you are an Anet staff?? You don't have to say it. I don't want to expose you

I feel better now

Edited October 10, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

I have something to say to you, I think its about time since it has been a while. You know, whenever I would see your name with the yellow wolf tag, I always would suspect that you are an Anet staff. Seriously, and that is why I would be very careful not to exceed my Rant with the state of the game knowing that, you would ban me for speaking the Truth.

You are very beyond knowledgeable of the game that I have witnessed on the forum.

Maybe you are an Anet staff?? You don't have to say it. I don't want to expose you

I feel better now

Unsure how to reply to this post but we both know Anet staff hardly post on the forum at all 😝

Glad your feeling better but Im just a player like you mate since Anet aint based in norway.

[Burnfall.9573]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

Unsure how to reply to this post but we both know Anet staff hardly post on the forum at all 😝

Glad your feeling better but Im just a player like you mate since Anet aint based in norway.

 

Ok good 😅

[Widebody.5071]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

So let me ask you a question, as a Game Company who want to advertise their game as being... let me quote Anet own words in Guild Wars 2 advertisement.

 

Combat

"Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat and choose from an arsenal of professions, weapons, and playstyles. Attack on the move, dodge and roll away from enemy blows, and come to your allies’ rescue midbattle. In the open world, you can team up with every player you meet—no grouping required!

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command. As you explore Tyria, you’ll unlock a vast selection of skills, traits, and weapon options to create the heroic character you want to play.

In the world of Tyria, heroes are powerful combatants who hold their own by dodging attacks, healing themselves, and making strategic use of their unique skills. Every profession excels at combat, letting you explore the world either alone or with friends. When you join forces with other players, you’ll learn to combine your abilities into enhanced attacks, support your allies by healing and resurrecting them, and break through tough enemy defenses.

The more your character grows, the more versatile they’ll become, allowing you to adapt your tactics as needed. Sheath your daggers to finish off a fleeing enemy with a short bow. Whirl through an ally’s wall of fire to create flaming projectiles. Use skills to summon birds of prey, call down firestorms from above, warp time to speed up your attacks, and much more. Decide how you’ll play your character moment-to-moment with customizable specializations."

 

Does this advertisement statement,  support Lasers 50 man Holosmith Profession group in the video?

Oh I forgot to add this one, 

"World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!"

Should we also expect Holosmith vs Holosmith in PvP Combat on an epic scale?

That's the direction the players took it... I understand exactly where you're coming from in how ridiculous it is but they are living up to their creed. Those mechanist players are playing exactly how they like, of course it's after the siege as been nerfed  to a point of being ineffective. Probably the same players who drove the celestial outrage, and will use that as an excuse to do what their doing now.

Haven't play wvw for a couple months, did something happen to kill the boonball?  I guess everyone need to play a mechanist now. Isn't something like this what started the warriors' nerf-fest back in the day, the dreaded [hammer and stab trains]. 

[vandrefalk.6823]

They should nerf or rework Alacrity and Quickness... these boons are far too important and outshine the others to the extent the others are nearly neglible. Reduce the coefficients of these boons; lower recharge rates, shorter durations - or heck even remove them and rework these aspects of combat mechanics as inate.

LFGs asking for "boondps"; nobody ever wants those who join to provide might/fury/stab/resistance/protection/etc. - the "boon" in boondps always refers to alac or quickness....

[Passerbye.6291]

I really don't understand the hate for boons in this game, if anything I'd increase the radius for them to make positioning other than stacking on the same spot viable (similar to how herald is capable of giving all its buffs in a 600 radius), otherwise, the boons need to be strong enough to make boondps a net gain over pure dps, otherwise we'd have a meta where in any content you could get away without healers (even now this is a thing with good groups in some content), you would.
Everyone would be playing the highest dps possible with some extra group support, making things like reaper entirely redundant once more.

The only change I'd make to the way boons function would be to change things like aegis and stab to either require skill to use by lowering the duration so that they'd need to be wellplaced to make a difference, or make them a lot less accessible to force healers/support to pick and choose when to use it, instead of being able to negate half the mechanics in the game. Granted this would be a PvE only change as I know PvP and WvW are whole different cans of worms, especially WvW becoming unplayable without stab apparently.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

They should nerf or rework Alacrity and Quickness... these boons are far too important and outshine the others to the extent the others are nearly neglible. Reduce the coefficients of these boons; lower recharge rates, shorter durations - or heck even remove them and rework these aspects of combat mechanics as inate.

LFGs asking for "boondps"; nobody ever wants those who join to provide might/fury/stab/resistance/protection/etc. - the "boon" in boondps always refers to alac or quickness....

Forgot to respond to this, the reason why we look for alacrity or quickness is not entirely because they are the biggest increase. While it is true that they are a huge increase in damage, so are 25 stacks of might and fury, but those buffs are widely accessible, they even made a point to make sure a lot of classes would bring some fury uptime by default, taking away the burden of having to provide 100% fury uptime from healers.
Now, if you were to suggest that all buffs should be a boondps or boonheal responsibility, then you are looking to make every single DPS build in the game provide no other utility, because otherwise, all other things being equal, dps specs that deal damage from afar, those who provide barrier and/or condition cleanse, projectile hate or even builds that are simply easier to play would then become the absolute meta. Since this would not help to make boons less important, and this was what you asked for in the first place, I don't see the point.

While I understand the desire to make alacrity and quickness baseline so that combat is streamlined and your gameplay remains the same across the entire game, be it solo or in groups, I do think this would take away from the depth of the game. As much as I hate playing any dps/boon dps with spotty alacrity or quickness as the former usually forces you to adapt your rotation and the latter often makes you interrupt your own casts, this very thing makes you appreciate a proper uptime on said boons more.
If you were to, say, incorporate alacrity and quickness as a baseline for all characters and adjust dps/healing numbers accordingly to compensate, and then added alacrity and quickness as generic buffs to damage/healing output, this would, on paper, achieve the same result as now while also streamlining combat. But I don't think this would be a good approach either, as alacrity and quickness would lose their identity and it would not require any skill whatsoever to adjust to their absence or spottiness in any given group. 

One last thing, this might be my bias, but I absolutely hate games where "support" dps brings something like 5% damage increase for 15 seconds on a 3-minute cooldown and then the entire squad uses said cooldowns together during burn phases and call it coordination. I very much prefer being actively involved in supporting the group not only through utilities and heals, but also buffs with reliable uptime.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

They should nerf or rework Alacrity and Quickness... these boons are far too important and outshine the others to the extent the others are nearly neglible. Reduce the coefficients of these boons; lower recharge rates, shorter durations - or heck even remove them and rework these aspects of combat mechanics as inate.

LFGs asking for "boondps"; nobody ever wants those who join to provide might/fury/stab/resistance/protection/etc. - the "boon" in boondps always refers to alac or quickness....

Lack of Alac or Quick is nowhere near as noticable as Might or Fury. They are extra boons and are in such "special" position, because you can't grab a build that supplies both reliably at ease, well, not anymore atleast. 

Might, Fury, Prot, Regen are already covered by healers, that's why boonDPS excludes them even if boonDPS builds can generate them. 

Fury is already generated by many skills either on yourself or on 5 people, FB Axe 2, FMW(brought by cFB, qFB and HFB and pretty much any other Guard really) and Rev Sword 5, just as a few examples.

Stability is a utility boon, you only need it occasionally, Carn, Gorse for example.

Resistance... why is this even mentioned? 

BoonDPS is Alac or Quick, because those are what's left that isn't situational.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

They should nerf or rework Alacrity and Quickness... these boons are far too important and outshine the others to the extent the others are nearly neglible. Reduce the coefficients of these boons; lower recharge rates, shorter durations - or heck even remove them and rework these aspects of combat mechanics as inate.

LFGs asking for "boondps"; nobody ever wants those who join to provide might/fury/stab/resistance/protection/etc. - the "boon" in boondps always refers to alac or quickness....

It's not because alac or quick are stronger (they are not: Might + fury alone are a +100% dps increase, which is already insane). It's because lack of perfect coverage of alac and/or quick is way more impactful on gameplay due to rotations derailing. People can easily stomach a decrease in dps due to their might dipping as low as 15 in moments. Having their muscle-memorized rotation derail because the skill that should be up is still on cooldown is a much more noticeable, however. And it's even more problematic in cases where mob cc phases are designed around typical cc skill cooldowns... reduced by alac.

Although yes, that makes those boons far more problematic. Might can be much more easily tweaked and nerfed by Anet without significant impact on gameplay, but quickness and alac just aren't designed around partial coverage, while nerfs to their strength would necessitate rebalancing of a lot of skill cooldowns/activation times. It would be far better to just roll those buffs into baseline and then start adjusting individual cooldowns/activation times.

[LadyKitty.6120]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not because alac or quick are stronger (they are not: Might + fury alone are a +100% dps increase, which is already insane). 

Can you say any common build for which "might+fury=+100% damage" is true? And mind showing the math? 'Cause might alone is max. 40% (in extremely generous circumstances) and while fury can be over 50% alone compared to 5% base crit rate, for power DPS builds it's typically 20-25% due to diminishing returns. If you played something like Valkyrie Virtuoso, what you said might be true but otherwise...nope.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Can you say any common build for which "might+fury=+100% damage" is true? And mind showing the math? 'Cause might alone is max. 40% (in extremely generous circumstances) and while fury can be over 50% alone compared to 5% base crit rate, for power DPS builds it's typically 20-25% due to diminishing returns. If you played something like Valkyrie Virtuoso, what you said might be true but otherwise...nope.

You are right, i overestimated it a bit due to basing it on old post that seems to have messed the math (used full critical damage value for basis of calculation, instead of removing the base 100% first). Still, you are underestimating it as well. Fury alone is around 35% increase if using the +5% trait. And, of course, the effect of both boons does not simply add up, but is multiplicative, which results in an overall ~90% increase for full zerker builds.

Although any traits and effects that increase Power and Ferocity affect this (added power lowers the calculation result, while added ferocity increases it). And, as you noticed, the effects can be better for non-glass builds.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[vandrefalk.6823]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:37 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

BoonDPS is Alac or Quick, because those are what's left that isn't situational.

I know this; I just think this new "boondps" that people put in lfg is stupid because they really want adps and qdps, because the others are brought by other supports/heals/DPS, etc.

When I see the new "boondps" term in LFG, join and say you're adps and they go, "no I need quickness" or vice versa.

-.-

When posting an LFG, be precise about your roles... ask for "adps" and "qdps", "aheal" or "qheal"

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

I know this; I just think this new "boondps" that people put in lfg is stupid because they really want adps and qdps, because the others are brought by other supports/heals/DPS, etc.

When I see the new "boondps" term in LFG, join and say you're adps and they go, "no I need quickness" or vice versa.

-.-

When posting an LFG, be precise about your roles... ask for "adps" and "qdps", "aheal" or "qheal"

If you already knew you wouldn't have gone on about how Alac and Quick are more important than boons like Might and Fury.

People use BoonDPS because it doesn't matter if the person joining in gives Alac or Quick either because one person can swap or because both are needed. I'm still sticking to using "Heal, Alac, Quick" in my LFGs, but it doesn't take much effort to know what boonDPS means.

 

[Ashantara.8731]

"The game is too easy" is definitely not an accurate observation. I have witnessed the decrease of player skill in terms of encounter mechanics, being compensated by mere damage. I see this happen a lot when I play daily Strikes.

Examples:

• There hasn't been a smooth Boneskinner in ages; people cannot avoid AoE anymore, nor stack properly on tag.
• Temple of Febe today: I was commanding and told people that there is no need to do a 360° when the firewall comes up, that they should instead just stack on tag. Still, people would go rogue and even get downed by the mechanic. (LFG was stating "be experienced" ... oof.)
• Cosmic Observatory: It was painful these past few days. People keep running from Soul Feasts instead of annihilating them by using the SAK. And don't get me started on the simple green arrow mechanic.

These days, it's "Let's just kill everything!" and "What are those mechanics you keep referring to??" 😄

[vandrefalk.6823]

15 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Temple of Febe today: I was commanding and told people that there is no need to do a 360° when the firewall comes up, that they should instead just stack on tag. Still, people would go rogue and even get downed by the mechanic. (LFG was stating "be experienced" ... oof.)

Here's me hoping an upcoming patch will change the firewall to be like Sabetha's, and then watch the surprise on strike groups attempting to tank the damage and outheal after patch drops 😄 

[Gorani.7205]

Quote

... should instead stack on tag ...

Doesn't that sum up the problem quite well? If you can ignore a very hard hitting mechanic by stating on a spot together and moving out of / evading / dodging that mechanic is the (far) worse choice of action ... the power creep is very visible and obvious.

Same applies to players in WvW easily tanking the Camp Supervisiors with Righteous Indignation buff, where in the past two hits meant you were downed and out.

[Hashberry.4510]

Enters instance, sets dodge key on fire. It can't lose.

[vandrefalk.6823]

It's pretty amazing that Sabetha figured out how to make a one-shotting, rotating flamewall - however, one of the most powerful demons has a lesser version of that power. Maybe Sabetha should start a rental service in Nayos to empower demons.