Remove Weaponmaster Training

[Zacchary.6183]

27 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Someone in this conversation who actually gets it. It's easy to smoke the Hopium and think Weapon mastery will bring about great things, but they're ignoring the fact that we have had pretty bad balance patches thought these years. The false hope is something this game does not need, and you shouldn't be branded as a "Doomer" For bringing reality to the situation. Like you said, this make the spagetti code that much more tangled, and the potential to damage future balance is that much higher.

But as this figure has said.

 

Aka, Just consume like a good mindless little costumer. Stop thinking about the problem, and pretend they don't exist.

And with that you proved my point. This is an MMO owned by a game company. Game companies in the MMO market make content for money. Money is required for them to survive. You are not owed content for free, and doubly so because this game does not have a subscription. Therefore, if you are not willing to pay the $25 they are charging for the content, you don't deserve it. And so this entire thread is simply people wanting to remove content from other players because they don't have it.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

49 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

And with that you proved my point. This is an MMO owned by a game company. Game companies in the MMO market make content for money. Money is required for them to survive. You are not owed content for free, and doubly so because this game does not have a subscription. Therefore, if you are not willing to pay the $25 they are charging for the content, you don't deserve it. And so this entire thread is simply people wanting to remove content from other players because they don't have it.

Your point is Irreverent. People are pissed that weaponmaster has caused balance to go out it wrack like it has, and how some weapon has gotten some undeserved nerf in a attempt to nerf the actual problematic weapons. Players having them, or not having them has nothing to do with that, though frankly, to call it content is offensive when all they did was remove some code to allow players access to those weapons, thinking the combat will be better.

I care more about how the "content" they're selling will affect the long term health of the game than the actual price.

[Panda.1967]

On 9/27/2023 at 11:25 AM, Suyheuti.1732 said:

In conclucion, you have to use dagger mh and sword oh. Sword mh retired. Shield was killed at 27th june patch, and there is a weapon, scepter, it was dead for a long time anyway.

You massively underestimate Scepter on Mesmer… especially Chrono… Shatter Spam Condi Chrono with Scepter can do absolutely insane DPS with easy 100% uptime on Alacrity & Quickness. Constantly pulling off 3 clone shatters every 1-2 seconds.

and thats just using Auto Attack… which frees you up to use whatever offhand you want for utility, including Shield which is not as dead or useless as you think it is.

I main Chronomancer and I run Sc/Sh + A/F.

2 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

to call it content is offensive when all they did was remove some code to allow players access to those weapons,

why do so many peope keep thinking code was removed? They didn’t remove any code to make weaponmastery work, they added code. The old code lines that restricted espec weapons to their respective especs are still in place. If you haven’t completed the story steps to unlock weapon mastery training then you still have the restrictions which is proof no code was removed. They added code that basically says “if this has been done, add X weapon to core profession weapon list”

Edited October 7, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

why do so many peope keep thinking code was removed? They didn’t remove any code to make weaponmastery work, they added code. The old code lines that restricted espec weapons to their respective especs are still in place. If you haven’t completed the story steps to unlock weapon mastery training then you still have the restrictions which is proof no code was removed. They added code that basically says “if this has been done, add X weapon to core profession weapon list”

It doesn't really address my point though. At the end of the day, we now have selling point of an expansion, that impact the balance in a massive way. The fact we're already feel it's effect should say something.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

14 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Kitty personally finds the weapon mastery thing good from balance perspective.

...they just need to balance the specs and traits based on their role, performance and raw numbers.

It's a good thing in practically every perspective, and any issues one sees (like power-creep) are merely exposing the flaws of the older systems.

However, balance is not going to be determined by numbers, its going to be determined, by the design of the weapons, and making mechanical changes to them. And not just any kind of mechanical changes either.

Quote

Previously weak spec meant that they would've needed to buff the spec as whole or buff its elite spec weapon or if the spec had a strong e-spec weapon, they had to either nerf it to same level as other weapons or nerf the spec. (and they did quite many times take the poorer path)

Now that the weaponmastery is a thing, they can level the weapons to more-or-less the same level based on combination of their damage output, mobility, support features and crowd control etc. and then they just need to balance the specs and traits based on their role, performance and raw numbers.

At the end, if they do the things right (one can hope but pessimist rarely gets disappointed) and balance all the weapons properly while getting specs balanced between themselves, the amount of "viable" build options will increase exponentionally compared to current state of the game. Though it will probably take a while as there's some weapons they just haven't touched in ages. (warrior's and guardian's maces, mesmer scepter, thief's pistol dual wields...)

It's going to be determined by the design of the weapons because balance doesn't actually work like this. The game's complexity is in such a way, that the relationships between the different abstract elements are non-parametrizable (certain relationships, can not be evaluated through numbers). I've said this before, and now I'll say it again : Asking for all the elements in the game to do the same things (the same damage, the same mobility, the same support and so on) is a homogenization procedure...and "build diversity" does not increase like this...it makes all the weapons (more generally just skills) do the same things and this is not what you want. It's easy to fall into this trap thinking that "making things equal" is going to introduce variety but it does not. Equalization is the anti-thesis (more appropriate to say, the duel) of diversity...and when you aren't equalizing things in the attempt to balance them then what exactly are you doing when switching numbers around. The point is that such operations are arbitrary and do pretty much nothing in the grand scheme.

the "exponential" component of options was the introduction of weapon-mastery itself. If you understand how your computer works...you would understand why...because computers work based on the same exact principles : permuting base elements (0's and 1's) to derive unique configurations...which your computer uses, to construct arbitrarily complex assemblies (programming languages). This is an exponential relationship (if you ever wondered why we go from 8bit->16bit->32bit->64bit) and it's the reason why you get to play complicated computer programs...like guild wars 2...and the incredibly diverse set of all other possible games you could play, on the same computer. 

Permutation is one (of two) fundamental and the primary reasons why that occurs. Everything you have ever done on your computer in the past 20-30 years...is due to THAT reason above and nothing else. every website you've ever visited, every game you've ever played, and every letter you've ever typed is all just different, permutations of those base elements (0's and 1's) to give unique configurations (programs).

Btw, I'm not discounting your entire comment. But it should be known that as the game becomes more complex, balancing it through numerical changes or equalization procedures will become more difficult, not easier (in fact, it is already impossible to do so, so nothing changes anyway and it's therefor not something to even concern yourself with) What people don't understand about this subject is that as the game increases in complexity, the space of unique builds increases, and unique configurations simply existing, is a natural self-balancing mechanism, and it's in fact this mechanism with which nature (the most diverse/complex/self-balancing system known to exist) is operating on.

 

Edit: I'm just gonna give an example, of what I'm talking about when I say that "different abstract elements in the game are non-parametrizable," just so that we are on the same page and you know what I'm even talking about:

You have two skills with just one property, and your objective is to "balance" them equally. 

Skill A : 5s of Stability

Skill B : 5s of Immobilization

Both of these effects are "equal" numerically, but we understand that there is this "abstract" layer to these effects in which they can not be parametrized in a universally meaningful way. The only way these mechanics get parametrized, is through the actual playing of the game, by its many agents...not by any purely mathematical system or numbers. 

The only way you can understand how to balance these skills is through a flimsy level of "intuition" which does not come from any meaningful parametrization. For instance, 3s or 2s of immobilization is probably the first "value" that comes to your mind when you see a skill like skill B to consider those values "balanced" but these values don't come from any mathematical modeling...they come from purely subjective experiences of the game by its agents...who use these skills in all kinds of different situations..., and in relation to all the other elements in the game...over and over again. In PVE 5s of immobilization doesn't mean much cause nobody has much use for immobilization (since mobs typically don't run away) but in PVP, 5s of immobilization is the "most broken OP thing to ever exist." So how do you reconcile any kind of meaningful balancing of numbers, if the only way you can parametrize them is through subjective experience of each individual player? And that's the thing : you can't.

It's like trying to "balance art." It just doesn't work that way. Even damage, which I often cite as being trivially comparable, has a level of subjectivity to it that make it impossible to balance numerically (player skill level...rotation complexity...other abstract utilities being part of the build!)

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Luthan.5236]

Since it is something people paid for ... they won't remove it completely. Of course they have the right to change stuff - like in all MMORPG where this is even mentioned in the ToS. But I would expect only minor changes here. If people to not like it hey can just decide to not use it. (Using only core weapons + weapons that belong to their equipped elite spec.) I am more worried about the new weapons for each profession though. 😄

Totally new thing (unless they are crap and extremely weak) should have a much bigger impact.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

37 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Since it is something people paid for ... they won't remove it completely. Of course they have the right to change stuff - like in all MMORPG where this is even mentioned in the ToS. But I would expect only minor changes here. If people to not like it hey can just decide to not use it. (Using only core weapons + weapons that belong to their equipped elite spec.) I am more worried about the new weapons for each profession though. 😄

Totally new thing (unless they are crap and extremely weak) should have a much bigger impact.

Are we going to keep using this red herring now? I'll say it before, and I'll say it again. The issue isn't the fact you are buying for a new feature. I don't care if Anet is charging for a new feature. I care about the feature itself, and the fact that it is creating a balancing nightmare for Anet to deal with to create a false sense of diversity. We're still in early Soto, and we're already seeing builds reaching adsurd dps. Something that is nearly impossible during the pof day. It's clear as day the powercreep has gotten severely worse. It's impactful for the wrong reasons.

And now, core weapons and Build that isn't reliant on weapon master got indirectly nerf because weapon master made everything too strong. Non weapon master builds are getting kitten because weapon master exist.

I don't expect weapon master to be removed, But Anet also got to understand there are consequences for this. I can see where their vision for combat is leading too, and it's nothing good. The moment Elite utility skills get the Weapon master treatment, That's where the kitten storm will really begin.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Gaiawolf.8261]

11 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Someone in this conversation who actually gets it. It's easy to smoke the Hopium and think Weapon mastery will bring about great things, but they're ignoring the fact that we have had pretty bad balance patches thought these years. The false hope is something this game does not need, and you shouldn't be branded as a "Doomer" For bringing reality to the situation. Like you said, this make the spagetti code that much more tangled, and the potential to damage future balance is that much higher.

I guess you and I have just had very different experiences with the game. I think the game is now very fun to play and has been for almost the entire time I've been playing it. Most patches I barely even noticed changes to my builds. Maybe a few tweaks I had to make. A few balance patches have hit hard, but those were mostly broad stroke changes to how skills functioned (like mantras). They were a learning curve, but I adapted. After some corrections I still had a lot of fun playing with builds and jumping into the game with my favorite characters.

Weapon master training has opened up some cool options for my builds, especially in WVW which I appreciate, and I haven't noticed any real detriment to my PVE play after the latest patch to bring the weapons and especs back in line a bit. Still fun, and a variety of weapon choices work well for my builds, even if they are not technically BIS. I do hope they curb some more of the power creep that has, um, creeped into the game over the past few years.

The reality I am seeing is that most of the recent balance patches look like a big deal on paper/notes, but they don't have a big impact on my actually play experience.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Jedrik.3109]

Doom doom doom doom doom doom.

Lol. I love this place. ❤️ 

[Panda.1967]

I said it in another thread and I will say it again here. The current balance issues are not actually because of weaponmastery training. Weaponmastery simply highlighted several older issues.

Elementalist warhorn is not overpowered, Offhand Dagger is just underpowered and Focus has always been terrible.

Guardian didn't have a real ranged weapon, so of course Longbow is overused now and gave a DPS boost to both Herald & Willbender… they can actually attack at a distance and deal real damage. Staff is a Support weapon and Scepter is a midrange.

Necromancer’s offhand situation mirrored Elementalist, so its no wonder Torch is seen as overpowered. Scepter & Axe are actually pretty weak mainhand condi weapons for Necromancer with Axe actually being Hybrid Condi/Power even, so of course Condi Necro will gravitate to the Condi heavy Pistol. Greatsword is legitimately overpowered  though… 

Things repeat like this for nearly every Espec weapon… power creep is to be expected when builds actually get a proper weapon to fill a hole in their build and when a class with undeniably weak weapons gets an actually properly balanced weapon finally.

Also, for some espec weapons its not even that it filled a gap that makes it seem so strong but rather that it can exploit specific traits in other eapecs… which makes it the trait that is the real problem.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

6 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I guess you and I have just had very different experiences with the game. I think the game is now very fun to play and has been for almost the entire time I've been playing it. Most patches I barely even noticed changes to my builds. Maybe a few tweaks I had to make. A few balance patches have hit hard, but those were mostly broad stroke changes to how skills functioned (like mantras). They were a learning curve, but I adapted. After some corrections I still had a lot of fun playing with builds and jumping into the game with my favorite characters.

Weapon master training has opened up some cool options for my builds, especially in WVW which I appreciate, and I haven't noticed any real detriment to my PVE play after the latest patch to bring the weapons and especs back in line a bit. Still fun, and a variety of weapon choices work well for my builds, even if they are not technically BIS. I do hope they curb some more of the power creep that has, um, creeped into the game over the past few years.

The reality I am seeing is that most of the recent balance patches look like a big deal on paper/notes, but they don't have a big impact on my actually play experience.

Well no kitten it's fun to play. But that doesn't translate to Balance. Vindicator when Anet changed it to have two dodge was fun, wasn't it? It was a blast to have a near 100% uptime with dodges. But it wasn't no where near balance though. Vindicator are still feeling the consequences of that change to this day. You can have fun with your own build all you want, but don't mistake that with how balanced the class is. You only adapt the shift in meta so much until you realize the Balance is getting worse.

Weapon master training has caused a paradigm shift, that much is clear. But you have to think of the bigger picture to understand the problematic implication this brings. The real changes, are long term. The latest patch notes are warning signs of things to come for the future. It doesn't look impactful now, because we haven't had any more balance patches beside this one. Anyone who isn't blind to the novelty can see how hard the balance team has it more than ever. Again, they struggling to balance the game before soto, and I don't think weapon mastery will change that. You can say that we're doomsaying and all that, but rarely have they ever been wrong.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Panda.1967]

2 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Weapon master training has caused a paradigm shift, that much is clear. 

No… it didn't Cause the paradigm shift… it enabled it sure… but the cause was underlying older issues with core weapons and espec traits.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

26 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

No… it didn't Cause the paradigm shift… it enabled it sure… but the cause was underlying older issues with core weapons and espec traits.

And you're not wrong, but you have to ask yourself, how are they going to balance the core weapon and classes without making the power creep that much more absurd? How do you ensure certain combos doesn't vastly over perform than others?

[Panda.1967]

19 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

And you're not wrong, but you have to ask yourself, how are they going to balance the core weapon and classes without making the power creep that much more absurd? How do you ensure certain combos doesn't vastly over perform than others?

I’m not wrong. And to answer your question, it will take effort. Actually analyzing interactions and determining the root causes for the imbalances. A lot of the core weapon issues were “fixed” with bandaid solutions in the past through buffing specific traits instead of actually fixing the weapon itself. Several issues can be fixed by reverting old bandaid fixes and then actually fixing the core weapons that were the problem in the first place.

I am under no delusion that it would be an easy fix… on the contrary I am well aware that foxing these issues will take time… and I fully expect yo see Anet make a lot of quick bad fixes instead of putting in the time and effort needed to actually fix the problems… they have proven time and time again that that is all they will do in GW2 when it comes to balance fixes. Thats the reason we still have balance problems that were reported way back in ALPHA… and many of those issues from alpha are coming back to haunt them today because weaponmastery put a spotlight on them again.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

10 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

I’m not wrong. And to answer your question, it will take effort. Actually analyzing interactions and determining the root causes for the imbalances. A lot of the core weapon issues were “fixed” with bandaid solutions in the past through buffing specific traits instead of actually fixing the weapon itself.

I am under no delusion that it would be an easy fix… on the contrary I am well aware that foxing these issues will take time… and I fully expect yo see Anet make a lot of quick bad fixes instead of putting in the time and effort needed to actually fix the problems… they have proven time and time again that that is all they will do in GW2 when it comes to balance fixes. Thats the reason we still have balance problems that were reported way back in ALPHA… and many of those issues from alpha are coming back to haunt them today because weaponmastery put a spotlight on them again.

Thank you for being reasonable.

 Anet has proven time and time again that they do make these "band-aid" fixes to critical issue. And it does haunt them at the end.

But my biggest issue with weapon master is the fact that we're now going to balance around this feature, which doesn't only expose those old issues, it add more fuel to the fire. It enables even more bad decisions on top of already bad decisions.

[VocalThought.9835]

3 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Thank you for being reasonable.

 Anet has proven time and time again that they do make these "band-aid" fixes to critical issue. And it does haunt them at the end.

But my biggest issue with weapon master is the fact that we're now going to balance around this feature, which doesn't only expose those old issues, it add more fuel to the fire. It enables even more bad decisions on top of already bad decisions.

I'm glad they add Weapon Mastery. This is how it should have been from the start, allowing these weapons to be introduced without the restriction of elite specialization. 

As far as balancing goes,  it appears people will also have an issue with it and Devs will always make it an issue. 

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm talking mostly about the revenant because it's the class I've been playing the most since it came out with HoT.
I'm not disappointed with the weapon mastery given to everyone without the need for elite specialization, which I was afraid would happen with the returning GS nerf. This was done to nerf the other revenant specializations. The problem seemed to affect the herald, but did collateral damage with the base and the renegat.

I think the problem is the one Anet created with the herald's quickness. He should have just done to force her to take concentration stuff rather than nerfing the GS multiplier. This would have reduced his dps more gently than this drastic nerf, even though he was up a year ago.

I'm not saying we're not used to Anet now. Nerf a lot and then either correct it 3 months later or even change nothing while the problem is still there. In this case, people generally used GS because it was better than S/S, which had already suffered a lot of nerfing a long time ago, and GS was also more practical for mob groups.

The shortbow is a ranged weapon that people use because it's much better than the hammer, which has been broken on damage, slowness and, above all, its main skill, skill 2, which is a drawback because you can't hit a target stuck to your character (one of the best "irony" designs), knowing that it's the renegat that offers the best option for the shortbow with these traits.

I hope they don't mess things up with the new weapons.

I'd like to take advantage of the fact that since the release of the vindicator, there have been problems with the aquatic dodge in particular, which triggers with a delay, and the attack distance on GS 3, which displays 900 and only works from around 800. It hasn't been long, just the beta of EoD 2 years ago.

[Angesombre.4630]

One thing I've forgotten is to try and see if the old weapons of all classes haven't aged, perhaps by adding a little buff, rather than nerfing the new ones. Knowing that some had been nerfed before the separation of the different game modes.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Panda.1967]

10 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

One thing I've forgotten is to try and see if the old weapons of all classes haven't aged, perhaps by adding a little buff, rather than nerfing the new ones. Knowing that some had been nerfed before the separation of the different game modes.

A lot of the old core weapons have aged… very poorly… 

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:45 AM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

You know, you could read our discussion and make actual counter arguments before cherry picking my post and gaslighting people for no reason. gaslighting seems to be really popular with you.

I already did your discussion. The fact is that much of what you are saying is wrong, as you have already been told ... INCLUDING whatever predictions you have related to the game failing because 'balance' or any other single issue a player wants to over-estimate the importance to the general playerbase. 

The fact is that weaponmastery isn't going to be game breaking issue for balancing or the game you imply in your posts because if balance was that important to most of the players, this game wouldn't exist.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that much of what you are saying is wrong, as you have already been told ... INCLUDING whatever predictions you have related to the game failing because 'balance' or any other single issue a player wants to over-estimate the importance to the general playerbase. 

Most of the people I've been arguing with are too narrow minded- too smoked up on the hopium, and blind by the novelty of it all, to think of the problematic implication Weapon master would bring to the table. They're arguing with their own selfish reason in mind. Only a few folks I've seen here during our discussion are actually reasonable.

Anyway, If Anet is struggling to maintain balance now, It's only going to get worse with weapon master, not better. Anet has a history massive balance history that only made the experience worse for players. They're just going to continue like how always make patches. Creating band-aid fixes, and not having the foresight about problematic design until it's too late.

 

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that weaponmastery isn't going to be game breaking issue for balancing or the game you imply in your posts because if balance was that important to most of the players, this game wouldn't exist.

The doom and gloom didn't come out of no where. Take a look of the engineer forum, Mechanist absolutely loathe Mechanical genius the way it is now. Look at elementalist after the latest patch. A lot of undeserved nerf to circumvent the actual problematic weapon. Weapon master brought to the table.

How about the warrior forum, chock-full of despair and anguish because their class struggles the most to this day. I envy them actually, they have more commitment and staying power than any other mains I've seen.

That's just a couple example at how player feels jaded about the balance so far. So yes. Balance IS that important, because it tied directly to the player's enjoyment and satisfaction. If their class feels unsatisfying to play, people feel less inclined to log in and play. The only reason that isn't the case is because the playerbase are very tolerant of bad changes Anet has made over the years, because they do love the game, even when they feel more jaded each time Anet makes a bad decision that affects them.

but that kind of tolerance doesn't last, because most people already feel jaded as it is. Hell, June 2022 patch was nearly the straw that broke the camel's back. The only people who wouldn't care all that much are the players who touch Open world and the story, and nothing else. And even they don't realize how much the powercreep is carrying them though most encounters.


Only time can tell what the future holds, but regardless how anyone feels or thing, there are a lot of validation in my arguments if you take a look in the past to see what Anet has done, if you take a look at how players are feeling outside your own personal feeling.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Only time can tell what the future holds, but regardless how anyone feels or thing, there are a lot of validation in my arguments if you take a look in the past to see what Anet has done, if you take a look at how players are feeling outside your own personal feeling.

I mean, you want me to look at the past and not my personal feelings? Ok, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. If the last 11 years is any indication, the general playerbase just isn't all that fussed about class balance, so it's absurd for players to think they can fearmonger Anet into believing a balancing disaster leading to terrible things for the game is imminent because of weaponmastery introduction, leading to the conclusion it needs to be removed. That's just nonsense.

Whatever the 'problem' is with balancing, it's certainly not because we got weaponmastery, because balance has never been that good, only improving in the last few years. People can stop being ridiculously outraged over nothing now. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, you want me to look at the past and not my personal feelings? Ok, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. If the last 11 years is any indication, the general playerbase just isn't all that fussed about class balance,

Lots of threads and posts would beg to differ.

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

so it's absurd for players to think they can fearmonger Anet into believing a balancing disaster leading to terrible things for the game is imminent because of weaponmastery introduction, leading to the conclusion it needs to be removed. That's just nonsense.

No one is "fearmongering" Anet. They are expressing concern and feedback to them because Anet haven't exactly been making good decisions lately. They're pessimistic for a reason.

 

As for weapon mastery, I never wanted Weaponmaster to begin with quite frankly, Because I knew it would create more homogenization, to many options for the devs to reasonably balance, and any mistake the devs makes, which is easier to do with something like weapon master, that's extra dev time they have to commit to fixing their mistakes instead of actually fixing more important issues. 

I never said weapon master need to be removed. It too late for that. Just a lot of folks putting words in my mouth. But that doesn't change my opinion that weapon master had no place in a game like this. And to think Weapon master will make the game easier to balance is absolutely foolish. 

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Whatever the 'problem' is with balancing, it's certainly not because we got weaponmastery, because balance has never been that good, only improving in the last few years. People can stop being ridiculously outraged over nothing now. 

 

But Weapon master will undoubtedly influence a lot of Anet's decisions going forward. And I see no good coming from that. I take issue with weapon mastery because it does lead to more homogenization. More dullness, more illusion of choice that will be harder to balance the more Anet adds more option into this game. It will be a balance jungle.

 

And yeah, the balance back then wasn't perfect. But it sure as kitten better than we have now. Just because the balance is bad doesn't excuse anyone for making it degrade even worse.  And yes I said worse. To say things are improving is really a out of touch thing to say considering all that happened the last few years lol.

 

But hey if me voicing my problem is "ridiculous" well that just means I'm doing something right lol.

[Obtena.7952]

21 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Lots of threads and posts would beg to differ.

Really? because threads and posts is how you think the success of the game is measured? ... that's just weird because THAT is what is important here, not the appeasement of the people that make those posts.
 

I'm not saying there aren't people who desire better balance or shouldn't want it ... but don't mistake their posts for the fact that the history of the game shows that balance is just not a big enough deal to enough people to cause the game to fail. I'm not downplaying it's importance, but the success of the game certainly does contradict the 'lots of threads and posts that beg to differ' level of importance that balance ACTUALLY has to most of the players. 

21 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

But Weapon master will undoubtedly influence a lot of Anet's decisions going forward. And I see no good coming from that. I take issue with weapon mastery because it does lead to more homogenization. More dullness, more illusion of choice that will be harder to balance the more Anet adds more option into this game. It will be a balance jungle.

This is where we have a problem. What 'no good' do you see coming from that, other than just saying it, obviously because you don't like weaponmastery? See, from my perspective, Anet simply added weapons that already exist to specs that didn't have them. Now somehow we are supposed to take people at their word that this is somehow some really bad thing, especially for balance? That's just comical to me because we know what the process will be to address that. 

Anet is going to throw water on the hot spots, bring everything to whatever state they are happy with and people will have these new weapon options wherever they want to use them. It's absurd to think Anet will be ANY worse at balancing these additional weapons than the balance they did BEFORE weaponmastery. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:11 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

And yeah, the balance back then wasn't perfect. But it sure as kitten better than we have now

You have litteral videos examining class popularity and why, aswell as outrage at leaks showing devs have favorites. 

I'm ngl I've been on break quite a while, but the era if seeing litterally 3 speccs completely dominate the popularity pools isnt forgotten no this game was just as wild through many many patches.