Remove Weaponmaster Training

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

17 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I know. 😅 I just didn't get that vibe from this particular post. I may be wrong, but I may be right... (Or maybe I'm just looking for a lunatic.)

I'll put it like this: There will most certainly be people coming into the thread to dispute it, that will say there are in fact less options now than there was before weaponmaster or relics... they have no choice but to state this literally, because saying that Soto gives you more options, doesn't support the argument that it gave them less options.

"i have less choices, even though I've been given more ways to enumerate them," is self contradictory you see, so people must pick the side they want to be on which immediately makes it a literal statement :  "That I have less choices, because I have been given less choices" and people will defend this to the death despite being a fabrication and the complete opposite of reality.

Often times, people will use this argument with relics (because we received only 52 options instead of 99) despite the fact that enumeration still gives you a larger set of possible build creations (99x52 > 99 still). For weapon-master though, there are no excuses like this to use.

Edited September 27, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[glenndevis.8327]

I was thinking this from the very beginning when they announced this. I was worried.

Sure we have more options to choose from but ofc everyone is gnna want to play the "best" set of weapons. 
Sometimes there's somethingn nice & niche that people can play with and that's fine i guess but unless they buff specific weapon related traits or traits in general we're gnna end up with irrelevant specs because others can just do it better. 

Every spec & Every weapon need to have their useful niche for this to work properly and then the weapons still need to be balanced well.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*squinting at people asking to remove weapons because they may have to hit the boss slightly less hard across the board due to all the newly introduced ways of hitting the boss* 

[MedievalThings.5417]

Wait till the next expansion when they add dual classing like in GW1.  The weekend we did it in wvw a few years ago was everyone taking the thief skills, not surprising.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I'll put it like this: There will most certainly be people coming into the thread to dispute it, that will say there are in fact less options now than there was before weaponmaster or relics... they have no choice but to state this literally, because saying that Soto gives you more options, doesn't support the argument that it gave them less options.

"i have less choices, even though I've been given more ways to enumerate them," is self contradictory you see, so people must pick the side they want to be on which immediately makes it a literal statement :  "That I have less choices, because I have been given less choices" and people will defend this to the death despite being a fabrication and the complete opposite of reality.

Often times, people will use this argument with relics (because we received only 52 options instead of 99) despite the fact that enumeration still gives you a larger set of possible build creations (99x52 > 99 still). For weapon-master though, there are no excuses like this to use.

Sorry, disagree. Adding options that introduce overperforming outliers, and then balancing around those outliers, has happened in this game. It's contributed to the overall powercreep over time. It's a valid concern that additional options can reduce viable options, which is what people are actually complaining about. Obviously this is not true for all builds and specs, but there is precedent. There is also a lot of subjectivity to what makes a build viable, so objectivity becomes limited as context and application are considered. Math in a vacuum is fun, but not very useful here.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Sorry, disagree. Adding options that introduce overperforming outliers, and then balancing around those outliers, has happened in this game. It's contributed to the overall powercreep over time. It's a valid concern that additional options can reduce viable options, which is what people are actually complaining about. Obviously this is not true for all builds and specs, but there is precedent. There is also a lot of subjectivity to what makes a build viable, so objectivity becomes limited as context and application are considered. Math in a vacuum is fun, but not very useful here.

lol and this is exactly what I was talking about:

Math in a vacuum? It is kindergarten math...combinations...you learn that in elementary school putting little blocks together of different colors on the play mat. it's equivalent to saying that  addition and subtraction has no real world application.

I even just did the math for you in that comment. 99 rune options, times 52 relics options is a greater number of options, then 99 rune options. 99x52 > 99. Wow meme. How crazy is that? Who knew multiplying two numbers together was a math in a vacuum, Einstein level equation.

Quote

Sorry, disagree. Adding options that introduce overperforming outliers, and then balancing around those outliers, has happened in this game. It's contributed to the overall powercreep over time. It's a valid concern that additional options can reduce viable options,

That does not mean you were given less options, or have less alternatives. The options, do in fact objectively exist for you. One (or more) of those options being a bad apple, doesn't mean the system is to blame for that, its the bad apple.

Edited September 27, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That does not mean you were given less options, or have less alternatives. The options, do in fact objectively exist for you. One (or more) of those options being a bad apple, doesn't mean the system is to blame for that, its the bad apple.

If this is okay to you, then I believe you are in the minority. Players don't want more options just for the sake of having more alternatives. They want more options that are fun to play and/or competitively get the job done. If a new option becomes available that noticeably outshines most other options, it can feel underwhelming to play anything except the new outlier(s).

I have a multitude of ways to get to work in the morning, but when they opened the new express lane, I take it every time so my commute is easier and more enjoyable. So do most other commuters who share my destination, it seems.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

20 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I have a multitude of ways to get to work in the morning, but when they opened the new express lane, I take it every time so my commute is easier and more enjoyable. So do most other commuters who share my destination, it seems.

I live in NYC. So I'm glad you use this example...it's perfect because I'm about to disassemble your reality with it.

I don't use the express train most of the time, because its full, and it skips my stops (depends on where I'm going)...I also wake up early, I like to sit and drink coffee instead of rubbing against some strangers stinky armpit.

So your argument: should we delete the subway system because of one stinky express train? Or because of a slow local train? Should we delete the subway system because the cars system is superior in every way? or what about airplanes, I mean technically this is the fastest vehicle of transportation right... Should just delete every other mode of transportation and make people take the airplane to work.

I clearly do not see how one can logically draw the conclusion that the system is the problem in that scenario...if anything all of these systems, that give you options and the ability to make a choice no matter what their efficiency is, make peoples lives more better...I mean it's ironic that you are using technology to prove my point because that is how most technology has tended to work : continually presenting new options, and ways of enumerating them to discover more options and ways to enumerate them and so on.

Edited September 27, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Gaiawolf.8261]

44 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I live in NYC. So I'm glad you use this example...it's perfect because I'm about to disassemble your reality with it.

I don't use the express train most of the time, because its full, and it skips my stops (depends on where I'm going)...I also wake up early, I like to sit and drink coffee instead of rubbing against some strangers stinky armpit.

So your argument: should we delete the subway system because of one stinky express train? Or because of a slow local train? Should we delete the subway system because the cars system is superior in every way? or what about airplanes, I mean technically this is the fastest vehicle of transportation right... Should just delete every other mode of transportation and make people take the airplane.

I clearly do not see how one can logically draw the conclusion that the system is the problem in that scenario...if anything all of these systems, that give you options, make peoples lives more better...i mean it's ironic that you are using technology to prove my point because that is how most technology has tended to work : continually presenting us options, and enumerating them to discover new things and new ways to accomplish things.

I never said there is a problem with the system. I like the system. For GW2, I said there were sometimes problems and concerns over how Anet implements it, which is what we experience in the game. I want more options from the system that many players feel good about playing and less occasions where playing an alternative build feels weaker and less fun by comparison. My reality remains intact, I just have to adjust to how I interact with it due to some design decisions. 

(I used to work in NYC. I took the Bronx. 😉)

Edit: Oh yes, I didn't mean to brush off your subway example. Your example shows how a system can be implemented to provide multiple, preferred options. I almost completely agree. Mine shows how sometimes it can be implemented with options that make alternative routes less attractive to the majority. Hence why implementation in context is key.)  

Edited September 27, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Sweetbread.3678]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Math in a vacuum is fun, but not very useful here.

Yeah I probably wouldn't bother; I'm not sure they're capable of understanding the concept of "illusion of choice" or how on paper math doesn't always reflect reality. It doesn't really matter if on paper my Ele went from 6-7 possible weapon combos before SotO to 11 after, because the reality is that I went from having bis dps choices of Hammer, Scepter, Sword, Focus, and offhand Dagger depending on the spec, to everything but pure condi Weaver being pigeonholed into sword and every single dps spec being pigeonholed into warhorn. Guess I'm just never playing hammer, focus, or dagger in a competitive environment ever again. Thank Dwayna I have so many on paper choices though!

[Floz.8904]

Hi Anet, general forum consensus of give us new content but now revert the content because the meta has shifted in accordance with what we wanted and we no longer like the meta.

At this point you're better off just disabling the forum posts because it seems the people who post here are, for the most part, serial complainers.

Two things forum enjoyers hate the most - change, and the way things are.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I never said there is a problem with the system. I like the system.

And here, we agree, and this is what a rational agent would and should say. But as the title of this thread suggests, people do not make this very basic association, and rather associate the issues of a bad actor, with the system, and come up with hocus pocus to blame the system.

My original point, was that the argument "weapon master gives you less choices" is a factually incorrect statement, the system of weapon mastery gives you more choices through the ability to permute them. Whether those choices are bad (to you, because remember what you consider bad might not be bad to somebody else, who has other purposes) is not a feature of the system, it is of a bad actor...and complaints should target those actors.

Again sticking with the subway example...just cause the G train only comes by every 2 hours at night and is dirty, does not mean we should destroy the whole train system, and revert to horseback. You fix the G train. very simple.

It's worth mentioning... with regard to @Sweetbread.3678 that there is no illusion of choice when talking about the system. Permutation is how this game was built in the first place. We don't have 50,000 classes right, we have about 1000 choices that we permute, recombine, use in different time-execution sequences...to create builds. Qualitatively, weapon-mastery is no different, and is not a departure, from the original construct principles this game, and it's predecessor was built on.

Where the actual illusion of choice argument sits, is a much deeper argument about the design of skills...the nature of the bad actors themselves. If people don't even understand the past few comments...forget trying to talk about illusion of choice. You need some basic logic skills to come anywhere near the topic. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

15 hours ago, Floz.8904 said:

Hi Anet, general forum consensus of give us new content but now revert the content because the meta has shifted in accordance with what we wanted and we no longer like the meta.

At this point you're better off just disabling the forum posts because it seems the people who post here are, for the most part, serial complainers.

Two things forum enjoyers hate the most - change, and the way things are.

Even without Weaponmaster training, ppl wud always find ways to complain about balance.
The next obvious target is Relics, it will never stop.

And while most of the criticism has merit, its also very played out and boring.
Its expected that the balance won't be smooth, it was also expected that players will complain no matter the circumstance.

We should be asking for better balance decisions, because if we follow along some purist opinions where we remove anything new, they would have us remove Elite Specs altogether, and quite frankly, forum ppl wud just be in another war between "keep Especs" versus "remove Especs", if not something else.

Edited September 28, 2023 by MercurialKuroSludge.8974

[Keydian.6709]

Weapon master and relics are a poor substitute for a new elite specs. 

[peperoncino.2516]

 

13 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It is kindergarten math...combinations

yet

9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

my point was that the argument "weapon master gives you less choices" is a factually incorrect

i think its just faster to type than the whole "weapons i enjoyed are now less viable, but my whole spec gets the nerfbat? all because anet removed espec restrictions on weapons and cant manage how to handle the aftermath. how is that fair?". conveys basically the same message.

i mean, others have pretty much said it already, but the issue is having your spec be nerfed across the board just because balancing wasnt done preemptively resulting in an outliner being introduced, which is exactly what happened to ele.

so then the actual, real issue, is how you count every possible weapon combination exactly as such - a combination! never mind how many weapons are only suitable for condi builds, or for support, or how some are clearly power dps weapons, or more on the tankier/utility side, or just dont even kittening work without espec mechanic - for there exists no build meme enough for you, apparently. i applaud the dedication.

Edited September 28, 2023 by peperoncino.2516

[LadyKitty.6120]

13 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I live in NYC. So I'm glad you use this example...it's perfect because I'm about to disassemble your reality with it.

I don't use the express train most of the time, because its full, and it skips my stops (depends on where I'm going)...I also wake up early, I like to sit and drink coffee instead of rubbing against some strangers stinky armpit.

So your argument: should we delete the subway system because of one stinky express train? Or because of a slow local train? Should we delete the subway system because the cars system is superior in every way? or what about airplanes, I mean technically this is the fastest vehicle of transportation right... Should just delete every other mode of transportation and make people take the airplane to work.

I clearly do not see how one can logically draw the conclusion that the system is the problem in that scenario...if anything all of these systems, that give you options and the ability to make a choice no matter what their efficiency is, make peoples lives more better...I mean it's ironic that you are using technology to prove my point because that is how most technology has tended to work : continually presenting new options, and ways of enumerating them to discover more options and ways to enumerate them and so on.

By your logic this far, if taking this public travel analogue to rune+relic, there's no difference that would narrow your preferred options to take into just one or two relevant ones. Walking is an option, taxi is an option, driving is an option. Even a route within the same system that has no passengers and is totally irrelevant to 100% of passengers is an equally important and relevant option to you if we go by your relic logic. Meanwhile for majority of people who live in 3 districts and go to another 3 for work, only the routes between those districts are relevant and the other routes might get some minor traffic due to some inviduals' circumstances or having some rare business there. Though since all routes are equally relevant permutations in your model, it also doesn't matter how comfy or efficient each route is. Everyone gets to same destination! (though if you're late due to taking slower route, you'd get shamed) Meanwhile, if we wanted to reduce congestion, we could either speed up the slower routes or add mobile working capabilities so people get some work done on the way and thus compensate for being late. Or the route might be just so comfy that you'll be 10% more productive than others. And ofc there's some other options like that walking and missing half the workday or taking the taxi and paying half the day's salary. Ofc one option is living in a nigh abandoned district that still has working connections but miserable quality of life.

And no, leaving earlier to compensate for slower/longer route isn't an option in this case. Or are you expecting a boss to just happily sit and let you whack your missing damage in before others join in? Doesn't work like that in-game.

But so, with those options, do you still think a system with 150 routes and most people using 9 of them is fine or should there be changes to make unpopular routes worth using and increase the quality of life and give benefits to populate the abandoned districts so passengers get spread more evenly across the routes? (in-game meaning changing and boosting the unpopular options and add new relevant ones to break the thief/monk/akeem/fractal hegemony)

[Gaiawolf.8261]

12 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

And here, we agree, and this is what a rational agent would and should say. But as the title of this thread suggests, people do not make this very basic association, and rather associate the issues of a bad actor, with the system, and come up with hocus pocus to blame the system

Of course people are going to associate and evaluate outliers in the system. That's not hocus pocus; those are very real things in the game that affect their player experiences. No critic is going to rate a movie or game based solely on premise without considering execution. They're going to rate it on the consumer experience, because that's what matters. 

When it comes to the weapon training system, I primarily like it, because it gives me extra mobility and range in WVW. I also like some of the character concepts it opens up. If I mostly played instant PVE, I probably would not like it, because of the DPS imbalances that it introduced with overperforming outliers. There's a very real concern that Anet will not be able to balance these new options. Some players would rather the system be taken out, because they don't think the devs can pull it off. Given Anet's track record with balance decisions, I can't say I really blame them. 

[Infinity.2876]

Weapon mastery was exactly as expected.

If the weapon carries the spec (weaver, and others): Other specs get a huge boost and original spec is usually worse (unless it gets a profitable weapon from other class.)

If the spec carries the weapon (deadeye rifle, and others): Other specs only use that weapon for unique circumstance and class roleplay.

If in between (axe guardian): it just boosts a few builds but doesn't change meta.

Balance aside I like the class and roleplay fantasy options that it allows.

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem with Anet is that it's a radical nerf with no solution behind it to the consequences it may entail for the player. I play to relax, not to get worked up because my character has lost a lot of power. It's frustrating to see changes like that, and it's not like it's the first time. The weaponmaster in itself is my problem, but it's Anet and its dubious balance with each patch. I'm going to be told that there's been compensation with the vindi for example, but is it really compensation and for the other specializations the change isn't there.
Lastly, even with the "overperforming" classes, I haven't seen any groups looking for this or that class. I found that there was everything as long as the roles were filled. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't wait for these changes so we can have a few more laughs ....

This is planned for the second major release after launch (and we're aiming to ship those major releases quarterly). We'll have more details about the style of play associated with these weapons as we get closer to this feature shipping, and later this year we'll have a beta for you to preview the changes. For now, here's the lineup of who's getting what:

    Guardian: Pistol (main and off hand)
    Revenant: Scepter (main hand)
    Warrior: Staff
    Engineer: Short bow
    Ranger: Mace (main and off hand)
    Thief: Axe (main hand)
    Elementalist: Pistol (main hand)
    Mesmer: Rifle
    Necromancer: Sword (main and off hand)

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

By your logic this far, if taking this public travel analogue to rune+relic, there's no difference that would narrow your preferred options to take into just one or two relevant ones. Walking is an option, taxi is an option, driving is an option. Even a route within the same system that has no passengers and is totally irrelevant to 100% of passengers is an equally important and relevant option to you if we go by your relic logic. Meanwhile for majority of people who live in 3 districts and go to another 3 for work, only the routes between those districts are relevant and the other routes might get some minor traffic due to some inviduals' circumstances or having some rare business there. Though since all routes are equally relevant permutations in your model, it also doesn't matter how comfy or efficient each route is. Everyone gets to same destination! (though if you're late due to taking slower route, you'd get shamed) Meanwhile, if we wanted to reduce congestion, we could either speed up the slower routes or add mobile working capabilities so people get some work done on the way and thus compensate for being late. Or the route might be just so comfy that you'll be 10% more productive than others. And ofc there's some other options like that walking and missing half the workday or taking the taxi and paying half the day's salary. Ofc one option is living in a nigh abandoned district that still has working connections but miserable quality of life.

And no, leaving earlier to compensate for slower/longer route isn't an option in this case. Or are you expecting a boss to just happily sit and let you whack your missing damage in before others join in? Doesn't work like that in-game.

But so, with those options, do you still think a system with 150 routes and most people using 9 of them is fine or should there be changes to make unpopular routes worth using and increase the quality of life and give benefits to populate the abandoned districts so passengers get spread more evenly across the routes? (in-game meaning changing and boosting the unpopular options and add new relevant ones to break the thief/monk/akeem/fractal hegemony)

But so, with those options, do you still think a system with 150 routes and most people using 9 of them is fine or should there be changes to make unpopular routes worth using and increase the quality of life and give benefits to populate the abandoned districts so passengers get spread more evenly across the routes? (in-game meaning changing and boosting the unpopular options and add new relevant ones to break the thief/monk/akeem/fractal hegemony)

You should make changes to unpopular routes to make them worth using if nobody is using them. You should also make changes to bad actors.

By your logic this far, if taking this public travel analogue to rune+relic, there's no difference that would narrow your preferred options to take into just one or two relevant ones.

Here you would be wrong, because this depends on the goals of the agents that determine what "relevancy" means. Just as the world determines what is going to be important to agents, the agents are also just as important in determining whether that thing in the world is important to them. For instance, you are talking about train's related to "getting to work" but not everybody takes the train, to go to work all of the time. You take the train to also come home from work, visit friends, family, go to bars...there's no "efficiency" calculation there. You might not be concerned with being late, if you know the destination is far away, you might just want to concern yourself with finding a seat on an empty train, and that becomes the most valuable thing to you in the world in that moment.

And see that's the issue with PVE min-max-meta-builders : If all you see in the game is DPS, DPS, DPS you can't see past anything else other then the number on logs... to see that it is this fact that oneself, is part of the problem, of an options "relevancy." Doesn't help that numbers are constructs that are trivially comparable, where as locations for train stops are not Many factors come into play, as to whether a train stop is going to be more useful to a location or more detrimental. All those non numerical factors benefit the notion that people have agency and choice in the world : hence why you have councils that vote on whether you get a train running through your apartment, and massively lowering its property value (and increasing the incentive for tech companies to create quieter trains) So you understand this correct? Efficiency (at dps) is not the thing everybody cares or thinks about, nor should it be. You only think and care about it, because you wish to care and think about it and therefor anet makes changes and designs the game only based on this because they think you care about it...

Because of this self-induced state of what you think relevancy means, you will forever be wondering why X does bigger damage then your Y, with or without weaponmastery or relics, until all builds have been "equalized" through numbers, and that's when actual homogenization occurs : when all your skills do the same thing because they've been balanced into equal number soup.

So here's the ultimatum : If you want to get rid of Weaponmastery and Relics...then fine go head, but you all have to guarantee that you meta-builder folks will no longer complain that X does more dps then Y from then after, sound fair? Because again if weaponmastery and relics are responsible for the problem, then logically getting rid of them, should make them stop complaining correct? So let's hear it.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Furball.1236]

It's too early to say anything 2 days after the latest game update. However, it does seem DPS is slightly lower for most classes compared to the last patch before SOTO.

In the end, weaponmaster training just replaced our old weapon sets with the new ones with very similar playstyles and slightly worse performances.

At least, we had different weapon skills that came with each elite spec before. Now depending on the role you play (pDPS, cDPS, or heal), you almost always use the same weapon sets. Elementalist is the worst example of this and all the 4 variants feel the same to play.

The original aim of weaponmaster training was to allow more diverse weapon selections, but it seems it only homogenized the playstyle so far. If they want the player to have diverse weapon choices instead of 1 "best" weapon sets Snowcrow has told them to, each weapon will need more uniqueness and synergy with the class mechanics of different elite specs. However, I think this almost requires complete redesigning of weapon skills and very long processes of balancing the new weapon skills.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Furball.1236

[Sleepwalker.1398]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:29 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

PvE:

Hammer/maces are trash on warrior.

Why do you think hammer is trash on warrior?

[Obtena.7952]

You can make whatever logical arguments you want for or against whatever systems Anet is going to make but ...

.. the reality is that there are practical considerations that FAR outweigh any of those and have I no doubt that weapon Mastery isn't going to be removed because it wasn't a frivolous consideration to put it in the game in the first place. Resources, time and money have been put into adding it. Anet will do whatever to make it work, including whatever balancing measures they need to take to do so (which I have no  doubt they considered they would have to do ANYWAYS as part of the decision to add it). 

Balance is a mess in part because of this addition? Sure ... but that's no reason to remove it because frankly, balance didn't meet some high standard BEFORE it was introduced either. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sansar.1302]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:49 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I'll put it like this: There will most certainly be people coming into the thread to dispute it, that will say there are in fact less options now than there was before weaponmaster or relics... they have no choice but to state this literally, because saying that Soto gives you more options, doesn't support the argument that it gave them less options.

"i have less choices, even though I've been given more ways to enumerate them," is self contradictory you see, so people must pick the side they want to be on which immediately makes it a literal statement :  "That I have less choices, because I have been given less choices" and people will defend this to the death despite being a fabrication and the complete opposite of reality.

Often times, people will use this argument with relics (because we received only 52 options instead of 99) despite the fact that enumeration still gives you a larger set of possible build creations (99x52 > 99 still). For weapon-master though, there are no excuses like this to use.

But of the relics we got only a few of them is worth using, so I have less viable choice now than before (way less) 

[Angesombre.4630]

The solution might be to slightly improve the lesser-used weapons and possibly review their function a little.
If I don't play certain weapons, it's usually because I don't particularly like them, or if I do use them, it's because I have to, either because of the build or the style of play.