Stealth is not OP, you are just bad

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Things like Cloaked in Shadows not applying blindness would be a start.  As that would be like giving Celestial Shadow a blind on it--because you already have superspeed with Meld with Shadows same as you get superspeed with Celestial Shadow.  

Maybe as compensation (even though that supposedly isn't a thing anymore) could do 1 stack of stab for 2s-3s or something on gaining stealth--you're untargetable anyway and would just prevent random CC's from screwing a kite attempt over.  

This is fine and would be useful.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

21 hours ago, CallousEye.5018 said:

Also being a WoW player where Rogues have perma-stealth and vanish, though a different implementation, wow has 1, 2, 3, and somewhat 4. Where 4 and 5 would fall under the concept of, "Stealth detection," but also damage over time effects would remove a player from stealth.

You couldn't copy all of the same mechanics from WoW and have it work in GW2, it would be too punishing, but I do think stealth removal on hit makes sense, maybe not "Reveal" which prevents re-stealth, but it would add some counter-play.

Copying WoW's stealth detection could work. Maybe even add a Spectral Sight like skill to everyone.

[Sarlan.7682]

remove superspeed from sa, remove superspeed on stealth relic, make teefs visible when kittening up attacks, maybe give them a trait to compensate but deal less sneak attack dmg and its prob fine. some thief builds are a perfect example of kittening gloriously up and still getting ahead due to reset potential of stealth + superspeed. oh and maybe dont frontload all dmg of certain weapons towards  one skill to reduce the 1 button monkeys 🙂

[magickthief.6492]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:49 PM, Sarlan.7682 said:

remove superspeed from sa, remove superspeed on stealth relic, make teefs visible when kittening up attacks, maybe give them a trait to compensate but deal less sneak attack dmg and its prob fine. some thief builds are a perfect example of kittening gloriously up and still getting ahead due to reset potential of stealth + superspeed. oh and maybe dont frontload all dmg of certain weapons towards  one skill to reduce the 1 button monkeys 🙂

You mean revs? The monkeys

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 10/4/2023 at 7:49 PM, Sarlan.7682 said:

 maybe give them a trait to compensate

This isnt directed at quote, but rather sentiment adjacent. 

I love how disinterested people are in allowing thief players to have functional kits. Like they won't instantly be next on the chopping block if we have no way to respond to the other class cheese wheels.

Make sure you look past your nose now~ ❤️

Edited October 6, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sereath.1428]

50 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This isnt directed at quote, but rather sentiment adjacent. 

I love how disinterested people are in allowing thief players to have functional kits. Like they won't instantly be next on the chopping block if we have no way to respond to the other class cheese wheels.

Make sure you look past your nose now~ ❤️

Yeah, thats very likely the reason devs never bother reading things here.
"Completely delete this class and its cRutchEs from the game! I will not stop until it is completely unplayable, even for the player with 1000 hours in it."
Unfortunate, because there are some very good suggestions as well, but yeah one for every 300 resentful posts.

[magickthief.6492]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:25 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

 

I don't, maybe they were. I wasn't lol. I've been smoking mesmers since 2012 without pause.

Should I now cry about signets and chaos? Go away.

[Myror.7521]

@Psycoprophet.8107 nah thief is acutually the best 1v1 class. It could very easily handle near every class in 1v1s. But that does not mean its a good Side noder. The reason why its the best 1v1 class is its Mobility plus stealth plus dmg Out off stealth. The only reason why its not a side noder is cause it can not holding the Point while doin a 1v1 Just simple as that^^

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On 10/4/2023 at 8:11 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I don't believe that.

It doesn't make sense. PU mesmer was outrunnable, and thieves could run back then, too. Maybe you'd annoy a thief by not dying but the only way you'd force a win is if a thief decided to commit to you instead of doing literally anything else, or ate confusion and didn't do anything about it. This seems like something you'd get a lot of flak from warriors or eles for. 

You don't have to believe anything.
Double stealth time means mesmer could reset the fight as much as it wants and thieves no longer has the control of the fight.

But:
Same thing happened with mirage when dodge uptime was good.
Same thing happened with WB.
Everytime some profession gets to do something better or on par with thieves, thieves rage hard.

[doozer.7063]

I do not think stealth by itself is an issue. It has good counterplay as long as it is not too long without tell and not too often available (so players cannot come out of nowhere without any visual tell or sound, a mesmer attacking some no awareness dude out of 3 secs torch stealth is really not a balance issue, its a l2p issue).

The way to stack stealth or be in stealth for way too long needs to be limited. I also think that classes which have other strengths and were not supposed to have a big amount of stealth (for example Ranger, Engi, Trapper Rune) should not have that much stealth or no stealth at all (dh).

As for thief: I think it is fine to have combos stacking stealth to some extent. The costs are there. But the reveal debuff needs to be a bit longer after hitting and stealth needs to be removed and the player should be revealed when the player is missing his attack (was blinded, blocked etc).

PU on Mesmer should be removed and replaced with something else.

Edited October 6, 2023 by doozer.7063

[Burnfall.9573]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You don't have to believe anything.
Double stealth time means mesmer could reset the fight as much as it wants and thieves no longer has the control of the fight.

But:
Same thing happened with mirage when dodge uptime was good.
Same thing happened with WB.
Everytime some profession gets to do something better or on par with thieves, thieves rage hard.

 

you forget to mention that. in return. Anet then equips Thief Profession with other Profession Roles and Identities, to keep all the other Profession. to remain Inferior to Thief Profession 11 years+ Supremacy. 

The Community should embrace for more Profession Identity Theft and Hijack; if anything happens to Thief Profession.

Their Profession Identity and Role might be next in line

-next remaining Professions to face Anet vengeful wrath: Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, Revenant, Ranger-

Edited October 6, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

 

you forget to mention that. in return. Anet then equips Thief Profession with other Profession Roles and Identities, to keep all the other Profession. to remain Inferior to Thief Profession 11 years+ Supremacy. 

The Community should embrace for more Profession Identity Theft and Hijack; if anything happens to Thief Profession.

Their Profession Identity and Role might be next in line

-next remaining Professions to face Anet vengeful wrath: Warrior, Guardian, Elementalist, Engineer, Revenant, Ranger-

I wanna meet the thief that caused this. I must learn.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Once roamers get farmed by other roamers on wvw - they all switch to thieves, mostly the shadow arts cheese ones of all types. And then the other side does that too.
The circle never ends, but stealth is definitely not OP.


Edit: /s
 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[jdawgie.1835]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:12 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Nade engi is a FAR more egregious misuse of stealth than anything thief can do, but anet still doesn't touch it.

Probably because topics like these are ultra focused on thief which stopped being a threat years ago.

Facts

On 10/1/2023 at 12:11 AM, ccccc.4963 said:

lot of players in this thread with low fov and it shows 

eh Yah

On 10/1/2023 at 4:00 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

No, youre bias and defending bs mechanics. A universal counter to stealth is needed, which will up the risk/reward of thief. If that comes with some additional direct sustain for the thief then so be it.. but right now the thiefs low risk high reward game play is toxic af and not impressive at all. It cannot be considered genuine skill if you have the mechanics that allow you to escape almost any situation.. you need to think about that. Thief isnt the only one with high escape mobility, their are a few other specs that need to be slapped in line due to the same issue, low risk engagements due to the ability to get out at will.

Nah bro - In here trippin on age old mechanics. Listen - for you @Flowki.7194 and @TrollingDemigod.3041 and @Burnfall.9573 Give this up - Stealth has been part of the game since launch. Literally launch. This is not a new mechanic, a patch, or something introduced via expac. Its part of the core of the game. Theres really nothing else to say - Learn to deal with stealth as a mechanic - (slide in a reveal in a utility, use stealth to counter, make a swap pre match to adjust with the area you struggle with) or do anything other than be upset here. If yall are REALLY that upset about a mechanic thats been in the game for as long as the game has existed, then its not the game fault lmao. Learn to address and play the game instead of trying to change the game to your needs/play style. 3 Ways to deal with stealth are as follows: Throw some Condi on that (Burn/Posion are especially helpful) or if they disnege with stealth - Just rotate out of the fight. Re-engage when they reappear. If they have to stealth to leave you won the match up and they are not getting node credit while stealthed.  This is where kiting nad movement are huge in game.  @magickthief.6492 Came in here to support you since you getting rat packed by E-Rage lmao.  These posts translate to: I play 1 class and that 1 class is countered by thief, I dont want to play anything else, and therefore the profession that counters me must be nerfed into the ground until it is no longer a counter to accommodate me not wanting to do anything different. GGs. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Bladestrom.6425]

13 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Facts

eh Yah

Nah bro - In here trippin on age old mechanics. Listen - for you @Flowki.7194 and @TrollingDemigod.3041 and @Burnfall.9573 Give this up - Stealth has been part of the game since launch. Literally launch. This is not a new mechanic, a patch, or something introduced via expac. Its part of the core of the game. Theres really nothing else to say - Learn to deal with stealth as a mechanic - (slide in a reveal in a utility, use stealth to counter, make a swap pre match to adjust with the area you struggle with) or do anything other than be upset here. If yall are REALLY that upset about a mechanic thats been in the game for as long as the game has existed, then its not the game fault lmao. Learn to address and play the game instead of trying to change the game to your needs/play style. 3 Ways to deal with stealth are as follows: Throw some Condi on that (Burn/Posion are especially helpful) or if they disnege with stealth - Just rotate out of the fight. Re-engage when they reappear. If they have to stealth to leave you won the match up and they are not getting node credit while stealthed.  This is where kiting nad movement are huge in game.  @magickthief.6492 Came in here to support you since you getting rat packed by E-Rage lmao.  These posts translate to: I play 1 class and that 1 class is countered by thief, I dont want to play anything else, and therefore the profession that counters me must be nerfed into the ground until it is no longer a counter to accommodate me not wanting to do anything different. GGs. 

its not stealth , its the amount of stealth.  I was fighting a player for 10 minutes in wvw before i finaly managed to kill him.  This is how the fight went.,

he tried to gank me, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away, he healed

for 10 minutes..

This is the problem, its poor gameplay,

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

14 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

sniff

Stealth was and still is busted since this game was released, lmao. It's like claiming that abc exploit that was since beta of the game shouldn't be fixed at all. You guys are simply afraid to lose a crutch that carries you beyond your level, that's all.
Learn to play without abusing stealth then.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Funfact: People with low IQ are unable to decouple concepts and understand how they can be separately addressed.

The way stealth works in this game is objectively stupid and severely dumbs the game down by reducing counterplay. Reveal on hit is absolutely braindead for a PvP game. People have been pointing out why for years, and the arguments are rock solid. It's not even worth the time to quickly go over them because all of them have been discussed to the level of dead horse ages ago.

HOWEVER, every time these reasons come up, the double digit club members come out of the closet because they are unable to decouple the concept of reworking a bad mechanic from nerfing classes that most rely on it. They are unable to mentally compute the fact that changes to make stealth more interactive/less "monkey" could come packaged with buffs to those classes in various ways, and so they incorrectly interpret good suggestions like "Blocking/Evading a stealth attack should reveal the attacker" or "Unblockable skills should not be unblockable from stealth" to be the same thing as saying "Nerf the class that uses these mechanics" when in fact they are two completely separate issues.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Sweetbread.3678]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:51 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I love how disinterested people are in allowing thief players to have functional kits. Like they won't instantly be next on the chopping block if we have no way to respond to the other class cheese wheels.

Everyone understands that reworking stealth would require reworking thief survival in general; we just aren't all so utterly kitten stupid that we have to put a gigantic disclaimer at the start of every post for something that so thoroughly falls under BASIC COMMON SENSE.

[magickthief.6492]

4 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Everyone understands that reworking stealth would require reworking thief survival in general; we just aren't all so utterly kitten stupid that we have to put a gigantic disclaimer at the start of every post for something that so thoroughly falls under BASIC COMMON SENSE.

I wonder at this point.

[Mhina.1827]

Wait wait wait we're talking about SPVP thief? NOT the WvW variant?

The one with like an average of 14.5k HP?

The one with literally 0 dmg mitigation? 

You do realize that if you sacrifice Shadow arts, which some thieves feel is necessary to have a real damage presence in sPvP (I didn't say all, but you can definitely find some high profile thief players neglecting SA to actually sting their enemies) you essentially have no cleanse. You can literally kill a thief by accident. Also, if they don't take shadow arts, they're missing a critical amount of initiative regen, so just messing up leaves you in a tremendously vulnerable state. For what it's worth, for the first time in I don't remember how long, Metabattle doesn't even consider d/p DD meta. 

Soulbeast, Dragon Hunter, and to some extent bladesworn (with its pretty decent tracking on trigger) pretty much trivialize the class. Most classes can swat it away. Yes, it can come back later, but if it's wasting precious time trying to kill you in a 1 v 1, it's often neglecting a more significant portion of its job or has literally no other option because the team is collapsing. 

I don't feel like you truly think sPvP thief is broken, those of you that are suggesting as such. Is it unfun to fight? Yeah, it definitely can be, and I don't think any thief player will disagree with you there. But so is fighting harbinger as it gets every buff in the game while dealing every condition just spamming buttons. So is fighting Cele renegade in WvW where it's literally just generating passive stats and barrier by existing. So is fighting blade sworn with its projectile reflect on aegis and exceptional mobility for a class that has incredible barrier generation, mid range proficiency, and very respectable damage (and I like to play bladesworn, it's probably my second most played class for the better half of a year). So is fighting scrapper that's literally barraging you with grenades while running the opposite direction with superspeed. 

You've gotta realize, some of you claiming that thief is OP are spamming classes with their own brand of cheese. They're abusing a mechanic the same way d/p daredevil is forced to abuse stealth. I can't speak for everyone but I know that I would certainly prefer a more classic take on the Assassin archetype that is a quick duelist akin to Willbender as opposed to a hit and run thorn in one's side. But we've got what we've got. I don't necessarily think the current iteration of thief needs to be stronger, because admittedly when it's very strong, it really doesn't feel good for everyone else. I just don't think it's there right now. Not the PvP variant. It's aight. Now WvW....it's still pretty kitten good lol 

[Kervv.6039]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:51 AM, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Once roamers get farmed by other roamers on wvw - they all switch to thieves, mostly the shadow arts cheese ones of all types. And then the other side does that too.
The circle never ends, but stealth is definitely not OP.


Edit: /s
 

Explain the Shadow Arts cheese please? It's mostly used to get rid of conditions and gain a bit of initiative. None of that is game breaking. It doesn't keep thieves in stealth longer. It doesn't increase thieves damage.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Survivability?  Air + Fire (or blood) sigil is enough to burst most zerk/dragon/mara specs. With superspeed spam you can just OOC until you finally get lucky too lmao
 

[Flowki.7194]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:24 PM, jdawgie.1835 said:

Facts

eh Yah

Nah bro - In here trippin on age old mechanics. Listen - for you @Flowki.7194 and @TrollingDemigod.3041 and @Burnfall.9573 Give this up - Stealth has been part of the game since launch. Literally launch. This is not a new mechanic, a patch, or something introduced via expac. Its part of the core of the game. Theres really nothing else to say - Learn to deal with stealth as a mechanic - (slide in a reveal in a utility, use stealth to counter, make a swap pre match to adjust with the area you struggle with) or do anything other than be upset here. If yall are REALLY that upset about a mechanic thats been in the game for as long as the game has existed, then its not the game fault lmao. Learn to address and play the game instead of trying to change the game to your needs/play style. 3 Ways to deal with stealth are as follows: Throw some Condi on that (Burn/Posion are especially helpful) or if they disnege with stealth - Just rotate out of the fight. Re-engage when they reappear. If they have to stealth to leave you won the match up and they are not getting node credit while stealthed.  This is where kiting nad movement are huge in game.  @magickthief.6492 Came in here to support you since you getting rat packed by E-Rage lmao.  These posts translate to: I play 1 class and that 1 class is countered by thief, I dont want to play anything else, and therefore the profession that counters me must be nerfed into the ground until it is no longer a counter to accommodate me not wanting to do anything different. GGs. 

 

Your post is rediculous, and has already been countered quite simply by the quated post below. I would add that the issue in the post below also exists in sPVP very regularly. If a thief does not want to be caught, he will not be caught. In that case, he might not have much impact on the game in terms of capping points and winning (but even then, its likely 1 or 2 people are activiely dedicating time to shut him down) that is true. HOWEVER, and its a huge however, see post below. That is what a thief can also do in sPVP, all game, even against 2 chasers depending on skill levels (blade doesnt get out in that situation, nor does hammer catta or many other duelist builds). Its annoying, its degenerate, it is low risk AF, its not fun to fight. It is laughable that thieves think having 14k hp makes it a high risk spec ''effective hp'' on account of your mobility/stealth spam is essentailly infinate, meaning the spec is genuinely LOW RISK. Multiple specs have 15k or below hp, and are far higher risk than thief, far higher, becuase they don't have the level of get out, or are much easier to catch. Scepter power cata, 12k hp.. let that sink in bud. 12k hp, why was that even possible?.. becuase they had the speed/immune to pick and choose fights, or escape if its going south, which ultimately removes most of the risk (effectiveness and mechanical difficulty is another thing). Thief is that, on steroids, in terms of ''get out'' ability.

 

Thief has some counters sure, sicem, herald/warrior reveal. Ive used these against thieves a lot, and they are not what I would call ''hard counters''. Thief still has enough utility to use during those phases, as do mesmers. They are RNG counters at best.. use them too early, thief can mitigate them, use them too late, hes already gone. As I already said in other post, many more players are now using SB, herald and still usual SPB. If sicem etc were such a hard counter to thieves, you would see a mass decline in thieves, and a huge 8 page long thread talking about how stealth counters are too strong. Still plenty of theives, and no such thread on front page.

 

On 10/7/2023 at 10:37 AM, vesica tempestas.1563 said:

its not stealth , its the amount of stealth.  I was fighting a player for 10 minutes in wvw before i finaly managed to kill him.  This is how the fight went.,

he tried to gank me, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away.

he tried to gank me, i popped some condy on him and got a hit in, he stealthed and ran away, he healed

for 10 minutes..

This is the problem, its poor gameplay,

 

This situation does not just apply to WvW, it is also the same issue in sPVP

Edited October 8, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Ferus.3165]

stealth is inherently broken in this game and is in dire need of some rework. It's not skill to outplay an opponent with stealth, because the opponent never had a chance to react to anything the stealth user did. That's why every second roamer in wvw is a thief because stealth is just so op you can get away with practically anything. That's why thief in general is such a good 1v1 or even 1vx class because stealth as a mechanic in this game is just so forgiving and broken that it is hard not to join the thief legions (or mesmer or soulbeast for that matter) even if you rather play other classes.

[magickthief.6492]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:31 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

every class forgets their own unfair enabling mechanics to support the idea that they should lose because of "x". nine times outta ten 9/10, plus a few, players make their complaints in the forums based on losing unexpectadly  after feeling confident in themselves and their "well crafted build". something has to truly vet your build for it to be a "well crafted build". turns out the best players in the game don't come here to whine, they adjust their build with the revelation. unfortunately, most players simply don't do that.

most classes don't die in a one shot to thieves anymore, the damage is simply not their, so REVEALED windows are already naturally there. but potatoes don't sprout. Some classes are not built for sidenoding, they are godlike at teamfighting, and it is often these "off meta" players that want to play their wonky build, that get vetted by thieves, and instead of adapting, they come here expecting to change a hard coded core mechanic of the game, and in today's game, that's asking a lot of the devs.

im confident removal of stealth in an expedient fashion will only murder the thief class single handedly, and maybe some of the weakest in the game desire that, but many players love the archetype, and have put countless hours into improving in the class. Just because a player decided to "try" the class out, doesn't mean they will ever be a threat. There are some things you have to do to become a "good" thief. 

You must know every profession thoroughly. 

You must multi-class

You must read the map, and pay attention to your team mates choices in the game.

You must practice duels in rooms and in the FFA, where things are controlled, and where things are NOT controlled.\

You must lower your pride and learn from better players.

You must learn the map and every weak point for your points, all the jumping puzzles, and what foes will choose to do to avoid you.

You must learn that dueling is 9/10 a waste, and always a waste against another thief if they have a counter build.

Its not just stand by muh support and do my rotation. You got to take your losses and run, the times ticking, and the points need a decapping.

 

I know this post is actually confusing, but the tips will also work for other classes, even in your fights against, *gasp, thieves