How can we improve Arms?

[Zekent.3652]

We all know that Arms is just the worst traitline in the whole game, it's just budget Firearms traitline from engi.

I like to think that Arms could improve the ranged facet of warrior, extra adrenaline with critical hits, some way of sustain because you just dont have the sustain from MMR (Strength) or Adrenal Health (Defense) to refill your HP bar, unless you run bladesworn or any other build without disicipline on core/spb/berserk. Minnor traits should also improve the power facet.

Any ideas?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Zizekent.2398

[Dadnir.5038]

Arm's issue is that it's both the condi traitline and the precision/crit chance traitline.

What I'd do:

- First I'd modify deep strike and Bloodlust to make them valuable for both strike damage and condition damage. And it's pretty simple:

• Deep stike: No longer grant condition damage while under fury but grant expertise instead.
• Bloodlust: Apply vulnerability on a critical strike instead of applying bleed.

- Then I'm bringing back to the major what I've taken from the minor:

• Sundering burst: No longer apply vulnerability on a burst but instead apply bleed. Increase bleed duration.
• Wounded precision: This trait now convert a precentage of precision into condition damage.

- Lastly there is a need to take care of the grandmaster traits:

• Burst precision: Instead of the burst critical chance, this trait should increase the burst critical damage.
• Dual wielding: The attack speed buff is a dud it need to be replaced by something which is not nullified by quickness. An increase to movement speed and endurance regeneration while dual wielding would be quite nice from my point of view as it could reduce the reliance on discipline.

NB: Blademaster and signet mastery would probably be in need of some changes after that to stay competitive but it's starting to be late.

[WingSwipe.3084]

10 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Arm's issue is that it's both the condi traitline and the precision/crit chance traitline.

What I'd do:

- First I'd modify deep strike and Bloodlust to make them valuable for both strike damage and condition damage. And it's pretty simple:

• Deep stike: No longer grant condition damage while under fury but grant expertise instead.
• Bloodlust: Apply vulnerability on a critical strike instead of applying bleed.

- Then I'm bringing back to the major what I've taken from the minor:

• Sundering burst: No longer apply vulnerability on a burst but instead apply bleed. Increase bleed duration.
• Wounded precision: This trait now convert a precentage of precision into condition damage.

- Lastly there is a need to take care of the grandmaster traits:

• Burst precision: Instead of the burst critical chance, this trait should increase the burst critical damage.
• Dual wielding: The attack speed buff is a dud it need to be replaced by something which is not nullified by quickness. An increase to movement speed and endurance regeneration while dual wielding would be quite nice from my point of view as it could reduce the reliance on discipline.

NB: Blademaster and signet mastery would probably be in need of some changes after that to stay competitive but it's starting to be late.

These are phenomenal suggestions and would surely make the trait line much more useable for both Condi and Power warrior alike.

"Burst precision: Instead of the burst critical chance, this trait should increase the burst critical damage."
Holy kitten this would pump power damage to the moon if not handled and scaled correctly. Would make the traitline mandatory for Bladesworn and Power Berserker if anything.

[DKRathalos.9625]

[How can we improve arms?] the answer is NO, it's not an option.

We can't improve arms because Anet doesn't want to improve warrior in general.

[Dadnir.5038]

23 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

These are phenomenal suggestions and would surely make the trait line much more useable for both Condi and Power warrior alike.

"Burst precision: Instead of the burst critical chance, this trait should increase the burst critical damage."
Holy kitten this would pump power damage to the moon if not handled and scaled correctly. Would make the traitline mandatory for Bladesworn and Power Berserker if anything.

In fact for burst precision, I was thinking about trading with this trait the power budget of the ferocity from signet mastery. In other word, the increase in burst critical damage shouldn't exceed what would be brought by 500 point of ferocity.

Now, the question, is: "What should be done with Signet mastery after that?"

I don't think that making the trait give 100 precision per stack would be the right thing to do as it would ultimately create a loss of dps potential for strike damage build. Maybe, giving 50 precision and 50 power per stack would do.

[WingSwipe.3084]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

In fact for burst precision, I was thinking about trading with this trait the power budget of the ferocity from signet mastery. In other word, the increase in burst critical damage shouldn't exceed what would be brought by 500 point of ferocity.

Now, the question, is: "What should be done with Signet mastery after that?"

I don't think that making the trait give 100 precision per stack would be the right thing to do as it would ultimately create a loss of dps potential for strike damage build. Maybe, giving 50 precision and 50 power per stack would do.

Seeing as we have a specific signet for precision, wouldnt it be better if signets gave power en ferocity instead with signet mastery?
Would make signets much more viable, and more importantly, desirable.

Would give a good reason to stack signets, the only current build that uses signets in general would be the Memeflame build.

[Dadnir.5038]

31 minutes ago, WingSwipe.3084 said:

Seeing as we have a specific signet for precision, wouldnt it be better if signets gave power en ferocity instead with signet mastery?
Would make signets much more viable, and more importantly, desirable.

Would give a good reason to stack signets, the only current build that uses signets in general would be the Memeflame build.

It would but I'm stripping cirtical chance from another trait in order to give him critical damage instead. Also if one signet already provide precision, it's also true that another signet already provide power. Keep in mind that the "memeflame" build already have it's 500 ferocity on the GM trait, it wouldn't be wise to add even more ferocity on top of that.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Dadnir.5038

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Here is what I would do:

• Furious Bursts: Burst grant Fury for 5s (15s ICD). Fury grants double the critical strike chance.
• Wounding Precision: Apply Torment when you apply bleeding to a foe 4s/2s (PvE/Comp).
• Deep Strikes: I agree, make this +180 expertise instead.
• Unsuspecting Foe removed and replaced with Distracting Criticals: Critical Strikes have a 33% chance to inflict Confusion for 4s/2s, (PvE/Comp).
• Sundering Bursts: In addition to its previous effects heal for 50 hp with 0.01 scaling when inflicting vulnerability.
• Bloodlust: In competitve modes only, increase the bleed duration for bleeds inflicted on critical strikes to 2s.
• Burst Precision: Burst Skills grant Improved Critical on use for 1s, with 1s duration more per tier of Burst used.
  • Improved Critical: Gain 50% increased chance to critically strike and gain +15% critical damage.
• Furious: In addition to its previous effects Stacks of Furous also grant +15/10 expertise (PvE/Comp).
• Dual Wielding: Critical Strikes with weapons in the Offhand have unique effects:
  • Axe: Inflict Vulnerability for 4s.
  • Sword: Inflict torment for 4s.
  • Mace: Inflict Confusion for 4s (Crushing Blow would deal an extra stack of confusion against CCd targets).
  • Shield: Gain 1000 barrier with 0.25 scaling.
  • Torch: Inflict Chill for 2s.
  • Pistol: Inflict Burning for 1.5s.
  • Dagger: Rip 1 boon.

Here is the goal, to make it so that you can run with less precision from stats, like how other classes get that option, to open up build variety, and to add in condition variety. The changes to Furious Bursts and Burst Precision let you do the first goal easily. Arms has needed a source of sustain, and Sundering Bursts has long been suggested as the source of that via applications of vulnerability. Here I made it a small heal with small scaling since we do have several sources of high vulnerability stacks.

The other goal for build variety, linking the extra damage condition applications to on critical effects turns almost every weapon into a hybrid weapon. Doesn't matter what you use, you'll end up putting torment, confusion, and bleeding on the target. If it became way too much, then reduce the durations in Competitive modes, but I already suggested a 2s duration on such condis. Dual Wielding is another option for build variety, giving each Offhand weapon effects on a critical hit that are meaningful for them. Dual Wielding+Sundering Bursts would give Axe some OH sustain. Chill on Torch to soft CC a target into the fire field, think about it in terms of sucking their heat out and using it back on them. Pistol getting burning on crit made sense, but that may end up being too much. Dagger OH needed something other than barrier... and really there needs to be more boon ripping in this game, not less. This would turn Bladestorm into a meaningful skill in melee pushes in Zergs and help against the Cele roamer horde.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Having all minor traits work with power builds would be a start. 

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

The problem of arms is no sustain.
A warrior's traitline must either have sustain (strength, defense, tactics) or hold the entire profession hostage (Discipline) on top of it's regular job to be good.

Arms is clearly the odd one out.
In my opinion it's nor arms that's flawed, it's rest of the warrior.
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

The problem of arms is no sustain.
A warrior's traitline must either have sustain (strength, defense, tactics) or hold the entire profession hostage (Discipline) on top of it's regular job to be good.

Arms is clearly the odd one out.
In my opinion it's nor arms that's flawed, it's rest of the warrior.
 

They would have to give warrior more evades on the weapon bar to fix that, or a trait to make each Burst skill an evade, and you know that will not happen.

[DownDrisis.4826]

Replace Dual wielding with something interesting. Take the ice off the Imob-gives-adrenaline trait and make Fury give +180 power as well, and arms is fine imo. It's actually one of my fav traits lines for (actually viable) roaming builds rn in WvW! 😄

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

More Bleeding on Arms. Reward people for hitting people multiple times and stacking up bleeding on them (so that it doesn't synergize very well with the condi macezerker build and make it even stronger).

• Bloodlust unsplit from PVE, buffed. Make it 4-5 seconds.
• Furious also increases expertise. You hit people a lot, you bleed them for longer. 
• Blademaster now applies 10 stacks of bleeding if you land "rip". Rip skill is modified when you take this trait to be a little slower to cast.
• Deep strikes now applies confusion for 2 seconds every time you crit someone with 5 or more stacks of bleeding. Rename it "Exsanguination".
• (Somewhere, idk) Bleeding damage you do grants you all of/a portion of the value in barrier.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• (Somewhere, idk) Bleeding damage you do grants you all of/a portion of the value in barrier.

Look at you making a shadow bunker trait.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Look at you making a shadow bunker trait.

Shh

Its a surprise tool that'll help us later

Edited October 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[cyberzombie.7348]

One old idea that comes to mind is replacing the middle grandmaster for a new trait called hypovolemic shock. Where after inflicting a certain stack of bleed inlficts a status effect that deals extra conditions for example...

Mild shock: 5 inflicts vuln

Moderate: 10 or more inflicts chill and slow

Critical: 15 and more inflicts confusion and weakness

[Lucentfir.7430]

I've been brewing up a thought on how to rework arms to be a competative alternative to our other lines, basically it goes as followed below. 

(Current) Deep Strikes (Minor Master) - This effect has been moved to Wounding Precision. 
(New) Deep Strikes (Minor Master): While under the effects of fury, disabling, or striking a immobilized a foe grants extra adrenaline.

 Bloodlust (Minor Grandmaster): Removed Bleed duration increase and replaced it  with a 1% (per stack) condition damage and strike damage increase against bleeding foes, capping at 10 stacks. 

Opportunist(Major Adept): When you strike a disabled or immobilized, foe, apply 1 stack of vulnerability(no cd) and gain 1 1/4 second of quickness. (ICD 1/2s) deal 3% increased damage against disabled and defiant foes.  

Signet Mastery:  -  Removed the stacking ferocity bonus, this now improves signets and retains their passives. 
Healing Signet -  increased passive effectiveness by 33%
Might Signet - Unblockable stacks now deal 10% (25% in PVE) increased strike damage on outgoing hits when used. 
Fury Signet - Gain 2 seconds of quickness, when used. 
Dolyak Signet - protection and resolution (3s) when used. 
Stamina Signet - Gain resistance and vigor (3s) when used. 
Rage Signet - Gain Superspeed and stability when used.



Dual Wielding(Grandmaster): Attack Speed is increased when wielding a main-hand weapon in your offhand, when you deal strike damage gain a stack of dual wield agility(1/2s icd). At 5 stacks of dual wield agility consume it and gain 3s seconds of quickness. While under the effects of quickness, when you strike an enemy, deliver an additional strike with your offhand.(1/2s ICD)
-Axe:  moderate strike damage and gain might (5s)
-Dagger:  low strike damage/moderate crit damage and deals more damage against inactive foes, gain fury(2s)
-Mace: moderate strike damage and applies vulnerability
-Sword: moderate strike damage and applies cripple and bleed

Burst Precision(Grandmaster): Your burst skills have an increased 50% Increased Strike Chance, critical strikes from burst skill deal increased 15% critical damage,  deal additional increased 15% critical strike damage (not restricted to burst skills only) when striking  foes with more than 15 stacks of Vulnerability. 
 
Furious(Grandmaster): In addition to it's current effects gain 1/2% condition duration per stack. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Lucentfir.7430

[Lucentfir.7430]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 I swear I didn't see your previous post featuring similar ideas, you beat me to the punch by like a day 😭

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 I swear I didn't see your previous post featuring similar ideas, you beat me to the punch by like a day 😭

Just means I'm rubbing off on you. I'll take it as a compliment.

[Vancho.8750]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:39 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Here is what I would do:

• Furious Bursts: Burst grant Fury for 5s (15s ICD). Fury grants double the critical strike chance.
• Wounding Precision: Apply Torment when you apply bleeding to a foe 4s/2s (PvE/Comp).
• Deep Strikes: I agree, make this +180 expertise instead.
• Unsuspecting Foe removed and replaced with Distracting Criticals: Critical Strikes have a 33% chance to inflict Confusion for 4s/2s, (PvE/Comp).
• Sundering Bursts: In addition to its previous effects heal for 50 hp with 0.01 scaling when inflicting vulnerability.
• Bloodlust: In competitve modes only, increase the bleed duration for bleeds inflicted on critical strikes to 2s.
• Burst Precision: Burst Skills grant Improved Critical on use for 1s, with 1s duration more per tier of Burst used.
  • Improved Critical: Gain 50% increased chance to critically strike and gain +15% critical damage.
• Furious: In addition to its previous effects Stacks of Furous also grant +15/10 expertise (PvE/Comp).
• Dual Wielding: Critical Strikes with weapons in the Offhand have unique effects:
  • Axe: Inflict Vulnerability for 4s.
  • Sword: Inflict torment for 4s.
  • Mace: Inflict Confusion for 4s (Crushing Blow would deal an extra stack of confusion against CCd targets).
  • Shield: Gain 1000 barrier with 0.25 scaling.
  • Torch: Inflict Chill for 2s.
  • Pistol: Inflict Burning for 1.5s.
  • Dagger: Rip 1 boon.

Here is the goal, to make it so that you can run with less precision from stats, like how other classes get that option, to open up build variety, and to add in condition variety. The changes to Furious Bursts and Burst Precision let you do the first goal easily. Arms has needed a source of sustain, and Sundering Bursts has long been suggested as the source of that via applications of vulnerability. Here I made it a small heal with small scaling since we do have several sources of high vulnerability stacks.

The other goal for build variety, linking the extra damage condition applications to on critical effects turns almost every weapon into a hybrid weapon. Doesn't matter what you use, you'll end up putting torment, confusion, and bleeding on the target. If it became way too much, then reduce the durations in Competitive modes, but I already suggested a 2s duration on such condis. Dual Wielding is another option for build variety, giving each Offhand weapon effects on a critical hit that are meaningful for them. Dual Wielding+Sundering Bursts would give Axe some OH sustain. Chill on Torch to soft CC a target into the fire field, think about it in terms of sucking their heat out and using it back on them. Pistol getting burning on crit made sense, but that may end up being too much. Dagger OH needed something other than barrier... and really there needs to be more boon ripping in this game, not less. This would turn Bladestorm into a meaningful skill in melee pushes in Zergs and help against the Cele roamer horde.

Another more simple option for dual wield (that anet can implement since they can copy paste from certain other not so warrior warrior proffesion) keep it as is and add "under the effects of quickness gain X % condition and strike damage". Also something something buff signets and make the passive work when in cd when the signet trait is taken, stack some sustain on the signet that is walled off by the trait line and the fact you have to lock your bar with signets. One of the reasons that you can't take arms in pvp is that it does not have sustain and warrior without sustain does not work.

 

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

how to improve arms... 

hmmmm

ask Hanz and Franz... They'll pump ... you up

oh sorry, didn't mean to imply changing arms traitline into a hand-to-hand combat line...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Another more simple option for dual wield (that anet can implement since they can copy paste from certain other not so warrior warrior proffesion) keep it as is and add "under the effects of quickness gain X % condition and strike damage". Also something something buff signets and make the passive work when in cd when the signet trait is taken, stack some sustain on the signet that is walled off by the trait line and the fact you have to lock your bar with signets. One of the reasons that you can't take arms in pvp is that it does not have sustain and warrior without sustain does not work.

 

I hear you, but I want more than glorified stat boosts. Give me more utility, or ways to do damage differently. For sustain, I still recommend that Sundering Bursts heal when applying vulnerability to targets, just enough to be effective while not being OP on it's own.

I did forget signets there didn't I...

Signer Mastery: In addition to it's previous effects signet's retain their passive abilities while on cool down.

[Vancho.8750]

On 10/4/2023 at 8:44 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I hear you, but I want more than glorified stat boosts. Give me more utility, or ways to do damage differently. For sustain, I still recommend that Sundering Bursts heal when applying vulnerability to targets, just enough to be effective while not being OP on it's own.

I did forget signets there didn't I...

Signer Mastery: In addition to it's previous effects signet's retain their passive abilities while on cool down.

The way Anet is handling kitten I don't have much trust them doing something new that works and if it gets complicated we get Bladesworn levels of jank, the best way going forward is using all ready developed code and applying it to useless kitten, it might be boring but at least it will be something functional.

[cjttruelife.9172]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:39 PM, Zekent.3652 said:

We all know that Arms is just the worst traitline in the whole game, it's just budget Firearms traitline from engi.

I like to think that Arms could improve the ranged facet of warrior, extra adrenaline with critical hits, some way of sustain because you just dont have the sustain from MMR (Strength) or Adrenal Health (Defense) to refill your HP bar, unless you run bladesworn or any other build without disicipline on core/spb/berserk. Minnor traits should also improve the power facet.

Any ideas?

Arms is old-school condi, that rips in viper hybrid builds, 2 3 3, blademaster and duel wielding traits. the problem isn't the arms, it's offhand sword. or swords in general if you don't like mainhand, I personally despise offhand. Redesign swords keep Arms as is. Play arms/ disc / zerker for added flair. bleeds on crit + burns + more bleeds , + weaponswap bleeds.

Edited October 18, 2023 by cjttruelife.9172

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

21 minutes ago, cjttruelife.9172 said:

Arms is old-school condi, that rips in viper hybrid builds, 2 3 3, blademaster and duel wielding traits. the problem isn't the arms, it's offhand sword. or swords in general if you don't like mainhand, I personally despise offhand. Redesign swords keep Arms as is. Play arms/ disc / zerker for added flair. bleeds on crit + burns + more bleeds , + weaponswap bleeds.

You're gimping yourself running Dual Wielding over Furious.