Why is virt the only EOD elite spec with tradeoffs?

[Obtena.7952]

I like a few things about this thread:

1. It's almost 2 years late

2. It's a rehash of discussion that was already done during pre-beta EoD

3. Whether the OP is right or wrong really doesn't matter. Does anyone actually believe daggers would be replaced with a more 'IP relevant' mechanic? I don't. 

But, really, the answer why is pretty obvious: because that's the theme Anet wanted for the spec. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

34 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Soulbeast only loses the pet if they CHOOSE to merge. It's not something they give up as part of the build, it's just another option that you can take or leave. Using merge has a tradeoff, but simply taking the soulbeast traitline does not (outside of the universal tradeoff that taking an elite specialisation means you only have two core tradeoffs) - you can always choose not to merge. (In some ways, soulbeast actually enhances being a beastmaster, since being able to revive your pet on a short cooldown by merging and unmerging makes the pet virtually impossible to neutralise.)

Untamed, as has been stated multiple times before, has no tradeoff if you set the pet skills on autocast.

Just casually browsing but saw some Ranger stuff so wanted to comment..

(it's really a general and not aimed at disputing the quoted, but just used the quoted for a discussion point)

Since OP is talking competitive, you don't just 'choose not to merge' as a soulbeast--you need to merge or you lose the entire point of the spec.  Staying perma unmerged means you took soulbeast trait line and get no use out of it to essentially RP core ranger...

But is merging a tradeoff? Not really--the tradeoff was loss of pet swap but that's been reverted.  I guess you can say you technically still have this tradeoff if you don't take the GM though; anyway, I don't think merge in any way shape or form is a tradeoff.

Untamed on auto-cast is also a HUGE detriment, because again, you lose an entire traitline not to interface with your pet.  That's not a tradeoff either though--it is true that Untamed has no tradeoff from core, and only enhances it.  The inverse is actually true, core now has a tradeoff from Untamed because you lose control of all but your F2.

Anyway, I think the topic is confusing what tradeoffs are.  Like mentioned before, loss of pet swap for ranger is a tradeoff, and pets doing less damage as Druid was a tradeoff...

But getting back to mesmer, clones vs. blades isn't a tradeoff, it's a different way to play.  I don't claim to have really any mesmer experience, but just logically blades are a straight sidegrade to clones--they can't block or distract but they also can't straight up get nuked by AoEs.  

[Panda.1967]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Anyway, I think the topic is confusing what tradeoffs are.  Like mentioned before, loss of pet swap for ranger is a tradeoff, and pets doing less damage as Druid was a tradeoff...

But getting back to mesmer, clones vs. blades isn't a tradeoff, it's a different way to play.  I don't claim to have really any mesmer experience, but just logically blades are a straight sidegrade to clones--they can't block or distract but they also can't straight up get nuked by AoEs.  

Tradeoffs were not all negatives… most espec teadeoffs are trading out the core mechanic for a stronger version. Reaper trades Death Shroud for Reaper Shroud, Chronomancer trades out Shatters for Chronomancer Shatters, Firebrand Trades Virtues for Tomes… these are all improved versions of what they traded out… specs only had negative trade offs when they gain something more… most negative tradeoffs have been removed now though, but some do still remain.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Panda.1967

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Just casually browsing but saw some Ranger stuff so wanted to comment..

(it's really a general and not aimed at disputing the quoted, but just used the quoted for a discussion point)

Since OP is talking competitive, you don't just 'choose not to merge' as a soulbeast--you need to merge or you lose the entire point of the spec.  Staying perma unmerged means you took soulbeast trait line and get no use out of it to essentially RP core ranger...

Yeah, it would be a bit pointless to take soulbeast if you weren't going to use the merge... but the point is that you always have the option to revert to behaving like a core ranger (apart from traits) if it's advantageous to do so. Merging has a tradeoff - you're giving up having the pet on the field in exchange for the buffs you get from the merging - but simply taking the soulbeast traitline and having access to merging does not (apart from the aforementioned "you could have taken a third core traitline or another elite spec").

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

But is merging a tradeoff? Not really--the tradeoff was loss of pet swap but that's been reverted.  I guess you can say you technically still have this tradeoff if you don't take the GM though; anyway, I don't think merge in any way shape or form is a tradeoff.

Untamed on auto-cast is also a HUGE detriment, because again, you lose an entire traitline not to interface with your pet.  That's not a tradeoff either though--it is true that Untamed has no tradeoff from core, and only enhances it.  The inverse is actually true, core now has a tradeoff from Untamed because you lose control of all but your F2.

Anyway, I think the topic is confusing what tradeoffs are.  Like mentioned before, loss of pet swap for ranger is a tradeoff, and pets doing less damage as Druid was a tradeoff...

But getting back to mesmer, clones vs. blades isn't a tradeoff, it's a different way to play.  I don't claim to have really any mesmer experience, but just logically blades are a straight sidegrade to clones--they can't block or distract but they also can't straight up get nuked by AoEs.  

Yeah, I tend to view it as being unable to do something that the core profession with an empty third traitline could do. To use the example highlighted in this thread, a virtuoso can't shatter if they have zero daggers stocked, but a core mesmer can shatter if they have zero clones (albeit at minimum effectiveness). That's a tradeoff. But, just to pick up on EoD examples, willbenders lose instant-activation virtues and virtue passives, bladesworn lose their weaponswap and burst skills, vindicators lose Ancient Echo, spectres lose initiative and Steal, mechanists lose their toolbelt, and harbingers lose core Death Shroud. Now, generally speaking what you get in return for those tradeoffs is worth the tradeoff, as long as you adjust your playstyle accordingly, but that doesn't mean that a tradeoff has not been made.

With respect to blades and clones, "sidegrade" is probably a good descriptor. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and someone deciding that conventional GW2 clone mesmer is better for them is entirely their choice, but that doesn't mean that virtuoso is outright bad. Personally, I switch between elite specialisations based on what I feel like at the time and what I think is going to be useful for what I'm planning to do. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

Goodness, are you still trying to win? You've got an overdeveloped sense of vengence. It's going to get you into trouble someday.

I'm going to come right out and say it: I don't like you. And now, I'm going to take you apart, piece by piece, in the most disrespectful yet tasteful way I possibly can. So do sit back and relax. I'm going to take my time with this.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Apart from Panda there's not a single name in here that have I've even seen posting in mesmer forums before.

This is an Appeal to Authority arguement, an arguementetive fallacy used to discredit anyone whom you see as being not qualified to even speak on a subject just because they don't meet your nebulous qualification. In this case, people that haven't been interactive enough on the forums for you to see them enough automatically disqualifies them from even speaking on your subject. Of course this is wrong given that there in fact are people, like myself, who are MORE than qualified to speak on the subject. And we're coming for you.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

People that started playing mesmer in EOD.

Again, much as the above, here you've put an arbitrary qualifier on who is and isn't allowed to have an opinion on the subject. If they weren't playing a mesmer pre-EoD then how could they possibly understand the class? Ignoring the fact that even if they did EoD came out February 28, 2022 giving them almost two years to play with at LEAST Virtuoso and Core meaning they could experience both blades AND clones and know more than enough to match you wit for wit, though the bar isn't exactly high.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

People that play condi/celestial

People that play chaos/inspi carried builds

I play Condi/Celstial. And I do it with a staff, just in case you're looking for more ammunition to use against me. You'll need it. Much as the first two points this is another fallaceous arguement because you think people using a build YOU deemed not worthy of being used disqualifies them from speaking. Only you have the golden scepter to deem whose build is good and whose isn't. Which probably means you're not using a scepter at all. Mesmer scepter would be beneath you, wouldn't it?

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Pvers.

You mean the people that play 90% of the content in the game rather than your niche little game mode. Guild Wars 2 does not run on PvP. You do not pay for the servers that run the game. You do not pay the people that make the game. You do not pay the distrubutors who provide the game. You exist here in your little world because of the grace and generosity of the PvE community who come in and explore maps, play stories, run metas, and most importantly spend money on the BLTC to play Fashion Wars with all their friends, and I do think that a bit of grace and humility is due. For everything else, I think you'll find yourself MUCH happier over here. You know, until those people can't stand you any more either.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So thank you for this delightful pile of kitten where:

I mention EoD and people say PoF and HoT

You literally made a thread asking about a trait that was available in core, HoT, and PoF and now you're complaining that those things came up in the conversation? Purrhaps you should have started a different subject, like discussing the colors of fire hydrants. But don't forget to get real mad if anyone mentions the color RED. Let's not mince words here. You were looking for one of two things: Either for everyone on the forums to agree with you and praise your genius intellect or start a fight where you could show them their ignominious defeat.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Blades>clones

Virt tradeoff is blades can't be cleaved even if one clone+IP deals as much damage as 5 blades.

Virt F3 is good.

And this one is just pure egotism. How DARE anyone have an opinion different than yours? How DARE anyone think that blades are better. You know what? How DARE ANYONE play Virtuoso at all. Anyone that even activates the Virtuoso spec should just have their game uninstall itself. The cojones on you. The sheer, unadulterated hubris.

15 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

And so on.

Because I'm sure you could go on. I am sure you could go on. I'm sure you could go on a tirade all day long about how bad, how stupid, how much worse everyone else is at the game is than you and how much better you are. And that's why I'm here. Because you're a bully. So am I. And it usually takes a bully to stop one. I don't care what happens to me on these forums. Report me for harassment, ban me from the forums, it's not going to ruin my day. But someone had to say it.

And if there are any moderators reading this, this might be a good thread to lock. I think it's served its purpose.
 

[Passerbye.6291]

Not gonna lie, I'm surprised this thread got this long considering the original claim of virtuoso being the only spec with trade offs is entirely false.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Passerbye.6291

[Panda.1967]

46 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

This is an Appeal to Authority arguement, an arguementetive fallacy used to discredit anyone whom you see as being not qualified to even speak on a subject just because they don't meet your nebulous qualification. In this case, people that haven't been interactive enough on the forums for you to see them enough automatically disqualifies them from even speaking on your subject. Of course this is wrong given that there in fact are people, like myself, who are MORE than qualified to speak on the subject. And we're coming for you.

Don’t forget… I haven’t actually posted in the Mesmer forum for a few years now… so its kinda funny that I’m the only one he says he’s seen posting here before… I do main Mesmer… and I was very active in this board years ago… but lately I prefer to just play the game… especially since ANet doesn’t seem to actually care about any of our feedback anyways… the only reason I’ve been active here again recently is because my computer is temporarily unavailable, I just moved and have been unpacking things this last week… woo phone posts!

46 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I play Condi/Celstial. And I do it with a staff, just in case you're looking for more ammunition to use against me. You'll need it. Much as the first two points this is another fallaceous arguement because you think people using a build YOU deemed not worthy of being used disqualifies them from speaking.

I also play Condi/Celestial… and I’m the only one he seems to think is qualified to speak… his case is falling apart pretty hard… also I am exclusively a PvE player… I HATE PvP…

Edited October 12, 2023 by Panda.1967

[zeyeti.8347]

18 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Pvers.

Ofc Pvers , you didn't mention it was on pvp only, you brought the whole cake on yourself , but thx for the laugh mate ❤️

Again some stuff is for pve , some for pvp and some for wvw.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:17 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Specter loses stealing skills but gets shroud.

Bladesworn doesn't really lose anything, dragon trigger is burst and bladefun is the second weapon skill.

Mechanist loses belt skills but gets mech skills.

Virt loses IP but gets? Worse shatters?

Virt gets to keep the blades after killing something

[Roadkizzle.2157]

And the Virtuoso can stock blades before going into combat with Blade Renewal or killing an AI enemy.

 

So the Virtuoso can start combat at 100% and don't have the ramp up time the other Mesmers have 

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:22 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

you should design a spec for competitive and then balance for pve

This appears to be your real complaint, and the IP/Virt thing is just your hook/excuse to make the argument.

If you want to argue for your suggested balance philosophy, then argue that. There's no need to heap scorn onto a spec with mechanics you dislike, just don't play it.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

4 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

This appears to be your real complaint, and the IP/Virt thing is just your hook/excuse to make the argument.

If you want to argue for your suggested balance philosophy, then argue that. There's no need to heap scorn onto a spec with mechanics you dislike, just don't play it.

Personally don't think it's a popular enough game mode for literally every spec to be designed around it. 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Personally don't think it's a popular enough game mode for literally every spec to be designed around it. 

I do agree with you, yet competitive modes exploit the game's various mechanisms/effects potential a lot better than PvE does.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Have you ever seen something so wrong, you question reality?

[Teknomancer.4895]

3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Personally don't think it's a popular enough game mode for literally every spec to be designed around it. 

Agreed, but that seems to be the argument OP was getting at there. 🤷‍♂️

Honestly the whole complaint is nonsense anyway. Virtuosos don't have access to either clones or shatters, and OP is salty that an effect that only triggers when a clone gets shattered isn't doing anything on a Virt, which uses neither of those mechanics. That's like building around staff traits, then not equipping a staff.

My guess is that the setup for this thread went a little something like this:

OP was using an unfamiliar build in PvP and all utilities were on cooldown when there was an ill-timed encounter. OP spent the ranged burst and it didn't land the way they wanted, then their melee opponent got in their face and started explaining how that was a less than optimal outcome. In that situation the PBAoE F3/F4 panic buttons are just too little too late, Illusionary Persona or not.

Then we got an angry and misdirected rant about how if only OP's deliberately chosen spec did something it's neither designed nor intended to do, they would have won.

Sad trombone.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do agree with you, yet competitive modes exploit the game's various mechanisms/effects potential a lot better than PvE does.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure there was a period where virtuoso was doing pretty well in sPvP due to being able to bring enough survivability to more than make up for the loss of clones (considering that experienced sPvP players are rarely fooled by a clone for long). Which makes it less of a 'the design is fundamentally bad for sPvP' issue, and more of a 'balance states can change over time' issue.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Is CMC watching this thread and realized that Chronomancer does more damage then Virtuoso in it's shatter and decide that Chrono needed another nerf in this patch?

[Lucius.2140]

 

On 10/9/2023 at 5:16 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Thread name.

Virtuoso gives up IP. Is not like virt is worth a kitten anyway but makes no sense to give up a baseline mechanic.

Daggers count as clones. What virt lose is no cast "shatters", now you need an animation for casting them and that changes a little the play style. Plus is way more direct in how the "shatter" attack direction goes and more inflexible in that sense.

Kinda you lose some freedom in favor of damage, in comparison to core mesmer.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Lucius.2140

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

10 hours ago, Lucius.2140 said:

 

 

 

Daggers count as clones. What virt lose is no cast "shatters", now you need an animation for casting them and that changes a little the play style. Plus is way more direct in how the "shatter" attack direction goes and more inflexible in that sense.

Kinda you lose some freedom in favor of damage, in comparison to core mesmer.

What has this to do with everything else you quoted? 😅

[Lucius.2140]

Obviusly i didn't know it could multi quotte XD

[Puck.3697]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:16 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Thread name.

Virtuoso gives up IP. Is not like virt is worth a kitten anyway but makes no sense to give up a baseline mechanic

Um wut?

Spectre loses half its initiative

Gunblade loses a weapon swap. 

Harbinger loses second life bar. 

Virt seems pretty strong in pve, and has pvp uses lol, i wouldn't say its completely bad. Maybe some of the other speccs have no downfalls, but virt ain't alone in trade offs