Catalyst traitline is absolute kitten

[Arheundel.6451]

I mean....somebody must have realized by now how kitten is the catalyst traitline.

1. No condi clear/no synergy with condi clear only traits
2. 15s CD mechanic requiring energy and giving out 1-2s of a boon given in spaded to other professions with either a dodge or by just farting
3. 5 traits dedicated to maintaining a stack of "buff" increasing base stats by an overall total of 10% and requiring a full-blown PvE rotation, golem style, to keep 

Like...a core ele is almost more useful than a catalyst overall, like wait a kittening moment every single one of you

1. There are literally no condi clear/sustain traits
2. A 15s CD mechanic to get a 2s resistance/resolution...and I need another 15-20s+ CD combo finisher to get this boon
3. Elemental empowerment? Does anybody know how to do simple math? You need a full PvE rotation 30/40s to enjoy 10% stats increase for 15s and there are 5 traits dedicated to it....like what the absolute hell is this crap?
4. The utilities are atrocious......

They nerfed/removed a couple of gimmicks making catalyst worth playing(shield utility on 25s CD-10s jade sphere and hammer), while never touching the whole kitten traitline and that's what we are left with now. Out of every 10 eles I see now, from PvP to WvW, 8 will be Tempest.. and I don't need to wonder why.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

It does seem like a pretty lazy design.  I don't know how they justify having multiple traits devoted to stacking the same buff.

[SeTect.5918]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

It does seem like a pretty lazy design.  I don't know how they justify having multiple traits devoted to stacking the same buff.

yea they also make one trait dependant on the other one.
Example:
Empowered_Empowerment is fully useless if you dont use Vicious_Empowerment. Its difficult enough even with that trait.


Elemental_Empowerment (trait) also wouldnt be needed if there would actually be better access to EE. Would make space for another trait.

Evasive_Empowerment is completely useless because if you want damage, you use Empowering_Auras and if u want defense (and boons) you use Spectacular_Sphere.
Its also kinda stupid that "Evasive empowerment" gives vigor while "spectacular sphere" also gives vigor and they are in the same row of traits. Like which one are u going to choose? the one that only gives vigor or the one that gives vigor, might, quickness, fury and aegis? I think the answer is obvious.

Catalyst traitline is straight up boring and there are like (almost) no ideas behind them.

Edited October 15, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Rework in progess, release in 2026.

About EE. I though it was a lazy concept buff (I still think it is), but if this buff must stay they should at least rework Empowered Empowerment.
Delete the threshold; effect last +33%, effectiveness +50%. It would be a "nerf" against a golem, but smoother for all modes, all weapons and mostly for all elementalist with their own gameplay-style and capabilities.

[aerouant.7408]

Cata is still the best offensive spec, what does that say about the other ones? 

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

1 hour ago, asket.5674 said:

Cata is still the best offensive spec, what does that say about the other ones? 

That elementalist current design is mediocre at best (I dont want to use any swear words because mama forbid me to use them)...?

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, asket.5674 said:

Cata is still the best offensive spec, what does that say about the other ones? 

That traits that do nothing that pump numbers up are effective for doing good DPS even if they're boring?

Seriously, though. 3/9 major traits are about stacking a buff. 2 of the remainder are for stacking a different buff instead. The only traits that actually do anything build-defining rather than just stacking up numbers are the sphere traits (except Energised Elements, the energy gain from that is so little it might as well not exist), and the stability trait.

Now, when you can get 20% to all stats and an additional 10% to damage, your damage numbers can be boosted quite a bit, but that doesn't mean it's interesting design.

To be fair, though, weaver does have similar problems, but I don't think they're quite as acute with weaver, and weaver on the whole represents a bigger change to overall playstyle which can change how you leverage core traits. 

[aetemes.2603]

Catalyst was *the* spec that turned me off the most of eod completely during beta.

It felt like all over the place, copy pasta boring concepts...with the whole "jade sphere" animation feeling like an attempt at a distraction.

I just was like..why is it called a catalyst??..what is the fantasy..couldn't bear it lol.

[rotten.9753]

19 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

To be fair, though, weaver does have similar problems, but I don't think they're quite as acute with weaver, and weaver on the whole represents a bigger change to overall playstyle which can change how you leverage core traits. 

Weaver has a very thoughtful design - combining elements with shorter attunement swap cooldowns. What has Catalyst? It's a core Elementalist with a boon field, its weapon is now deprecated by sword/warhorn as they do a better job. You play it like a less interesting and more straightforward version of weaver with sword/warhhorn. The whole spec is still playable (barely) only because of the giant boost to stats.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

Weaver has a very thoughtful design - combining elements with shorter attunement swap cooldowns. What has Catalyst? It's a core Elementalist with a boon field, its weapon is now deprecated by sword/warhorn as they do a better job. You play it like a less interesting and more straightforward version of weaver with sword/warhhorn. The whole spec is still playable (barely) only because of the giant boost to stats.

Oh, I'm not denying that weaver has a better design overall... but it's in the overall design, not the weaver traits themselves. A lot of the weaver traits do feel similar to catalyst traits in that they're basically just triggering a conditional bonus to damage, or helping to maintain a conditional bonus to damage. But in weaver's case, relatively uninspiring major traits are forgivable given the core mechanic and how much that changes the playstyle. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem might have been that ArenaNet felt that since they got away with it with weaver, they could get away with it in a future elite spec as well.

But catalyst just doesn't have the solid elite specialisation design that weaver has. Instead, especially with weaponmaster training, it basically feels like weaver with training wheels and a bit of tempest mixed in.

The tragic thing is that with a bit more inspiration they possibly could have done something awesome with an "empowered by the elemental beasts of Cantha" theme, but they didn't do anything with that apart from the sphere graphics (and even those might just be a hologram projected by the jade matrix that they just had to shoehorn in).

[InappropriateInnuendo.1395]

On 10/15/2023 at 9:31 AM, asket.5674 said:

Cata is still the best offensive spec, what does that say about the other ones? 

I think this speaks more to how elementalist weapons work than the elite specs. You have half as many options for pure damage, but twice as many options for utility. Elementalist is a favourite of mine in PvP because of this.

[crosknight.3041]

catalyst had high potential, and was hyped about a combo focused spec. instead we got a lazy mash of tempest (reliance on auras) and weaver (hammer 3+augments essentially being stances again)

easily my least fav of the specs of EoD. catalyst just comes off like it was made very late in development of EoD where they didnt have time to truly experiment with more creative ideas.

[Sweetbread.3678]

Quick hammer Cata is kinda fun, but it's definitely wonky and half-baked. They could at the very least make the Elemental Epitome icd matchup with attunement cooldowns when under alacrity; the most frustrating thing for me is missing an EE stack because the rotation was sped up but the trait mechanics weren't.

[rotten.9753]

1 hour ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Quick hammer Cata is kinda fun, but it's definitely wonky and half-baked. They could at the very least make the Elemental Epitome icd matchup with attunement cooldowns when under alacrity; the most frustrating thing for me is missing an EE stack because the rotation was sped up but the trait mechanics weren't.

As long as quick herald exists, playing every other quick dps is just gimping your own team. Quick cata, doesn't matter if hammer or sword, has way too many limitations.

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

As long as quick herald exists, playing every other quick dps is just gimping your own team. Quick cata, doesn't matter if hammer or sword, has way too many limitations.

Absolutely , herald can dump every needed boon your other support doesnt have , can change legend to adapt to any situation, stab, bubble, etc.

At this point it isn't even a competition , all the others quick/dps feel half baked in comparison.

Also the way herald apply boons is a semi permanent way , every 1 sec he gives quickness for 1,75 based , on specific fights playing another quick can be very downsided if ppl have to go away doing a specific mechanic and coming back when you already gave your burst of quick , herald has no burst of boons , it's runny 100% of the time.

23 hours ago, crosknight.3041 said:

catalyst had high potential, and was hyped about a combo focused spec. instead we got a lazy mash of tempest (reliance on auras) and weaver (hammer 3+augments essentially being stances again)

easily my least fav of the specs of EoD. catalyst just comes off like it was made very late in development of EoD where they didnt have time to truly experiment with more creative ideas.

Should have been a 5th attunement spec, not this messed up pile of absurb mechanics , who for some reason didn't feel complicated enough so we added and energy bar with a 5cd ramp up on a sphere use.... 

[Bladestrom.6425]

Catalyst was just a weird design.  What is criminal about it however is the absolute amateur design hackery with the recent patches that wrecked a lot of non meta builds, which went like this:

- Boost signets.

Oops extra aura has made cata more powerful, hack stuff that impacts all builds, not just cata.

Oops extra aura still too powerful for cata, hack more stuff and make signets weaker than they were before.  at same time lets ruin spells like dragon tooth because yep cata was too powerful.

Now lets make significant changes to sceptre - now its unviable as a condy weapon with pure condy builds

Now lefts remove many build options via relics, for example extra aura, more  vitality.   

total mess.

 

[rotten.9753]

8 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Absolutely , herald can dump every needed boon your other support doesnt have , can change legend to adapt to any situation, stab, bubble, etc.

At this point it isn't even a competition , all the others quick/dps feel half baked in comparison.

Also the way herald apply boons is a semi permanent way , every 1 sec he gives quickness for 1,75 based , on specific fights playing another quick can be very downsided if ppl have to go away doing a specific mechanic and coming back when you already gave your burst of quick , herald has no burst of boons , it's runny 100% of the time.

Don't forget about its range - it's 600.

[Junkpile.7439]

Wonder if they ever add elementalist elite spec that whole game play isn't circle kitten in combo fields. I usually play staff catalyst because two meteor showers tag more enemies than one. 2k crits won't kill anything anyways. Catalyst traitline doesn't really do anything. Little bit fury and stability and some kitten weak damage bonus that is hard to get if you don't play some lamer spec.

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

Hey there, fellow Elementalists and anyone who enjoys slinging some elemental magic! 
I've got a question for you. What's the deal with the Catalyst, seriously?

I mean, I was looking at this class after the balance patch, and it seems like they didn't change much. 
There are a few Quality of Life tweaks, but the whole picture still seems kinda unfinished. 
I'm not entirely sure what ArenaNet had in mind, but from a player's perspective, the Catalyst feels like a bit of a miss.

They say it's supposed to be this 'steadfast presence on the battlefield',
But You will found that a defensively built Scrapper to be way more survivable with all its dodges and evades. 
Heck, even my condi Tempest had some pretty decent defense and sustainability. 
In comparison, those Hammer 3 balls on the Catalyst felt too limiting for me, and the slow channeled Hammer 2s? 
Yeah, they were just plain clunky. Even when I had Celestial gear on, I couldn't find a good reason to switch from Celestial Scrapper to Celestial Catalyst,
Because the Scrapper's Hammer felt way more responsive for a frontline melee weapon.

I saw some clips where they were talking about the stationary golem DPS benchmark for the Catalyst being pretty high. 
But you know what? It's a whole different story in PvP, WvW, open world, and other game modes where everything's moving around like crazy. 
So, is that it? Is the Catalyst just a full-on DPS spec with a litte of Quickness on a ideally golem? 
If that's the case, it's pretty underwhelming.

I honestly think the Catalyst itself might be confused about what it's supposed to be and how it fits in with the other Engineer specs. 
I mean, adding another spec like Engineer, it can do all the things like buffing 10 people alacrity, being a top-notch healer, dishing out 200% Quickness, 
slapping on massive barriers, being the resurrection champ, keeping stability up, and still cranking out top DPS... 
it's a bit confusing when the Engineer already has so much going on.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

I am not a fan of catalyst design either. Hamer for ele? How is that thematical for a magic casting class. I would of like to have  off hand torch.  Endless fire on a stick to manipulate into giant magic fields that could do some useful stuff. Earth I imagine as melting the ground and going into it and becoming invisible for a short time, air could be dps based with plasma lighting attack or field, water be freezing the ground and sucking up all the heat into the touch charging it for massive fire field attacks. 

But we get a hammer for a mage class instead. 

The reason why I stopped playing gw2 is soly because of there class design choices. I just don't like them.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

18 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

I am not a fan of catalyst design either. Hamer for ele? How is that thematical for a magic casting class. I would of like to have  off hand torch.  Endless fire on a stick to manipulate into giant magic fields that could do some useful stuff. Earth I imagine as melting the ground and going into it and becoming invisible for a short time, air could be dps based with plasma lighting attack or field, water be freezing the ground and sucking up all the heat into the touch charging it for massive fire field attacks. 

But we get a hammer for a mage class instead. 

The reason why I stopped playing gw2 is soly because of there class design choices. I just don't like them.

Every weapon besides staff, scepter, and focus fit the "why is this on ele" criteria, so idk if thats a good criteria. In my mind any weapon can fit the fantasy if they make it imbued with elemental effects, since it was released with D/D in a close combat build that functioned more like a duelist should have indicated that was the planned idea. Then tempest added pbaoe as it's skill mechanic, and ever since then everything has been focused on a melee/combat oriented elemental user.

But to me it's not about what weapon makes an elemental class a mage, but more how that design is implemented.  I just think we shouldn't be caught up on the weapon making no sense in our respective ideas on what an elementalist should be thematically, because Anet is allowed to have a unique take on it and I think it's a breath of fresh air, but we should focus on the absolute lack of design philosophy and what they have to add to make these shoehorned playstyles work. Hammer isn't bad because it uses a hammer skin for it's abilities, it's bad because to make it work you have to have a heck ton of stat boosts so it can survive as a bruiser, and all those stats mess with other builds, and then you get a traitline like catalyst that is just a bunch of stat boosts and doesn't work with any weapon other than the one it was designed around. It wasn't designed to fit with elementalist, it was designed as it's own closed system that is basically a pre-built build with no variation.

I personally love playing hammer catalyst, the rotation makes more sense to me and is easier while also being able to tank hits for once, but I hate that that's all it can do. No other weapon or build works with the trait line, and like every other espec it has caused the other builds and skills to take a hit in order to keep hammer cata afloat.

[Ace.1784]

On 12/1/2023 at 4:41 AM, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

Hey there, fellow Elementalists and anyone who enjoys slinging some elemental magic! 
I've got a question for you. What's the deal with the Catalyst, seriously?

I mean, I was looking at this class after the balance patch, and it seems like they didn't change much. 
There are a few Quality of Life tweaks, but the whole picture still seems kinda unfinished. 
I'm not entirely sure what ArenaNet had in mind, but from a player's perspective, the Catalyst feels like a bit of a miss.

They say it's supposed to be this 'steadfast presence on the battlefield',
But You will found that a defensively built Scrapper to be way more survivable with all its dodges and evades. 
Heck, even my condi Tempest had some pretty decent defense and sustainability. 
In comparison, those Hammer 3 balls on the Catalyst felt too limiting for me, and the slow channeled Hammer 2s? 
Yeah, they were just plain clunky. Even when I had Celestial gear on, I couldn't find a good reason to switch from Celestial Scrapper to Celestial Catalyst,
Because the Scrapper's Hammer felt way more responsive for a frontline melee weapon.

I saw some clips where they were talking about the stationary golem DPS benchmark for the Catalyst being pretty high. 
But you know what? It's a whole different story in PvP, WvW, open world, and other game modes where everything's moving around like crazy. 
So, is that it? Is the Catalyst just a full-on DPS spec with a litte of Quickness on a ideally golem? 
If that's the case, it's pretty underwhelming.

I honestly think the Catalyst itself might be confused about what it's supposed to be and how it fits in with the other Engineer specs. 
I mean, adding another spec like Engineer, it can do all the things like buffing 10 people alacrity, being a top-notch healer, dishing out 200% Quickness, 
slapping on massive barriers, being the resurrection champ, keeping stability up, and still cranking out top DPS... 
it's a bit confusing when the Engineer already has so much going on.

Catalyst is incredibly strong and provides several key boons in various game modes.

In open world (without offensive/defensive jade bot buffs), you can critically provide self quickness with damage to speed up those "slow 2 skills". I saw someone mention you may want to drop air sphere, but do note that ALL spheres give quickness now, not just air. You also get aegis, fury, might, vigor, resolution, and protection  (PvE), vigor/aegis/protection/resolution helping you avoid damage and fury/might improving your output. I play Hammer Catalyst full zerker in PvE and nearly never go down because of this combined with the self utility (heals, condi clears, blocks) on the weapon itself. Moreover, through these fields, you can get even MORE utility (might, heals, damage reduction).

I also play catalyst with sword/warhorn and scepter/warhorn, to much to the same effect.

In WvW, Catalyst provides Resistance, allowing you to avoid immob bombs and helps your team escape soft CC effects. In WvW, only air sphere provides quickness, but you can use that on bomb call. Even if you're playing DPS, these capabilities can provide the necessary support in a pinch and if you're playing support, they further augment your ability to provide utility to your team.

If you can get these boons from somewhere else, you can align yourself with the snowcrows build; however, it's worth taking the sphere traits if you don't have access.

3 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Every weapon besides staff, scepter, and focus fit the "why is this on ele" criteria, so idk if thats a good criteria. In my mind any weapon can fit the fantasy if they make it imbued with elemental effects, since it was released with D/D in a close combat build that functioned more like a duelist should have indicated that was the planned idea. Then tempest added pbaoe as it's skill mechanic, and ever since then everything has been focused on a melee/combat oriented elemental user.

But to me it's not about what weapon makes an elemental class a mage, but more how that design is implemented.  I just think we shouldn't be caught up on the weapon making no sense in our respective ideas on what an elementalist should be thematically, because Anet is allowed to have a unique take on it and I think it's a breath of fresh air, but we should focus on the absolute lack of design philosophy and what they have to add to make these shoehorned playstyles work. Hammer isn't bad because it uses a hammer skin for it's abilities, it's bad because to make it work you have to have a heck ton of stat boosts so it can survive as a bruiser, and all those stats mess with other builds, and then you get a traitline like catalyst that is just a bunch of stat boosts and doesn't work with any weapon other than the one it was designed around. It wasn't designed to fit with elementalist, it was designed as it's own closed system that is basically a pre-built build with no variation.

I personally love playing hammer catalyst, the rotation makes more sense to me and is easier while also being able to tank hits for once, but I hate that that's all it can do. No other weapon or build works with the trait line, and like every other espec it has caused the other builds and skills to take a hit in order to keep hammer cata afloat.

When I started playing this game, I only wanted to use staff (and sometimes, I still do use only staff) because it aligned with what I thought a mage was. However, upon playing D/D, it opened my mind up to what this class could really do. That is to say, +1 to this. Be open to new ideas and explore them. Hammer is easily one of the most fun weapons on Elementalist currently.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think there's a very real sense here that all of the professions are quite a bit broader than people are used to. An arcane knight or elemental warrior is a perfectly legitimate version of elementalist, just as death knight is represented through the reaper elite specialisation of necromancer rather than a new profession.

However, there's also a very real sense that people who did want the traditional mage archetype probably have reason to be upset that apart from reworks and weaver skills for sceptre and staff, pretty much everything new that elementalist received from HoT to the upcoming pistol release has been oriented towards meleementalist, with more melee weapons than ranged. The other scholars achieved a much better balance.

It also doesn't help that both Catalyst and the pistol feel like they're putting a new coat of paint on ideas that had already been implemented.

[Flowki.7194]

I never quite understood why hammer and scepter cata were so good in sPVP. They were difficult to play, depended mostly on active mitigations to the enemys specific skills etc etc. Then later, I kinde realised that at the time, stability was important, and there were not a lot of specs around that could spew out damage while immune to incomming damage. A few nerfs to stability, to scepter co, and a shift in mobility meta, along with invuln while still attacking spam.. now scepter and hammer cata are nion trash specs, unless you are very good at them.

Its mostly black and white when you face a catalyst in pvp. It will either die in <10 seconds, or kill you in <10 seconds. Way too hard to play, yet was too good when you could play it. Bad design? maybe, or maybe other specs should have been held to the same standard. I also play rev, and played some gaurd. Im not saying rev is badly designed, but herald and gaurd most certainly spew out boons/procs that I had to work harder for on cata.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[noneHotBuildTest.7251]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:41 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

I never quite understood why hammer and scepter cata were so good in sPVP. They were difficult to play, depended mostly on active mitigations to the enemys specific skills etc etc. Then later, I kinde realised that at the time, stability was important, and there were not a lot of specs around that could spew out damage while immune to incomming damage. A few nerfs to stability, to scepter co, and a shift in mobility meta, along with invuln while still attacking spam.. now scepter and hammer cata are nion trash specs, unless you are very good at them.

Its mostly black and white when you face a catalyst in pvp. It will either die in <10 seconds, or kill you in <10 seconds. Way too hard to play, yet was too good when you could play it. Bad design? maybe, or maybe other specs should have been held to the same standard. I also play rev, and played some gaurd. Im not saying rev is badly designed, but herald and gaurd most certainly spew out boons/procs that I had to work harder for on cata.

Just go to pve! and you know there always have a better class which way more ez to playr then cata.

Don't know why they just keep nerf cata for no reason.