Just delete the turtle mount & the Jade Bot from the game

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

6 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Uhhh, that's literally asura golems you described there bud. Jade is ultimately powered by Soo-Won's magic, which in turns gives it the capability to be functional like holo-magic and the other forms of technology that asura use, create, and manipulate. 

You are reaching for straws at this point when it all ultimately the same thing. 

I'm not grasping at straws at all. My position from the start was: I don't like jade bots and jade-tech stuff because I find it aesthetically unsympathetic with the game's world and what I like about the game. So far, that has gone unchallenged. I never argued that it doesn't make sense or that it breaks lore etc which is what all these arguments seem to be addressing (straw man).

[Raizel.1839]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:44 AM, Evil Darkness.3061 said:

And don't even get me started on the  Jade Bot!

Please start, what's the problem there? 😂

[Westenev.5289]

Those turtles are helping people complete daily jp's as we speak lmao. Mesmers have been partially replaced.

[Vayne.8563]

On 10/17/2023 at 10:17 AM, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Turtle is fine, however a futuristic drone appearing every 2 minutes in my medieval fantasy game is definitely something I could, and would prefer to, live without

I only bothered to even equip one on my main character since I want him stat maxed, no plans to equip one on my other 23 characters at all

Hopefully an option to just hide all related visual effects comes along at some point. Then I could simply take the stat bonuses without having to acknowledge the source 

Except it's not a "medieval" fantasy game.  In fact, neither the dark ages, nor the renaissance exist on Tyria. There are video screens in Rata Sum. There are air ships in Lion's Arch. There are portals like you know, in Star Gate that take us from place to place.  And waypoints. We have holographic technology in this game. The ability to bioengineer viruses. We have tanks, jet packs, how can you possibly believe that in the 250 years since Guild Wars 1 technology would have stood still?

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Except it's not a "medieval" fantasy game.  In fact, neither the dark ages, nor the renaissance exist on Tyria. There are video screens in Rata Sum. There are air ships in Lion's Arch. There are portals like you know, in Star Gate that take us from place to place.  And waypoints. We have holographic technology in this game. The ability to bioengineer viruses. We have tanks, jet packs, how can you possibly believe that in the 250 years since Guild Wars 1 technology would have stood still?

"If it's a medieval fantasy game then how do you explain the fantasy elements?"

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

23 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

"If it's a medieval fantasy game then how do you explain the fantasy elements?"

Just because the houses look like they're from 500 years ago it isn't automatically a medieval fantasy. Robots being made out of cogs and machinery used in steam machines or the entirety of core Engi and Scrapper is more of a steampunk genre, isn't it? That's what GW2 had for quite a few years.

Buildings made up of computers with huge displays, portals capable of moving you hundreds of kilometers are something you'd see in a sci-fi movie, not a medieval movie.
Strapping "fantasy" on the end doesn't change it.

Medieval fantasy doesn't need the technology it features to be scientifically explainable. This is why the idea of magic infused rocks becoming servants that can do all kinds of things, like fight or do whatever is a perfectly fine thing in the game. 

If you hate "futuristic" elements, because it doesn't fit the idea of "medieval fantasy that's GW2" then them guns, grenades need to go in the bin along with all the steampunk stuff and things like Asura gates, golems, giant computers, screens and waypoints.

 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

I wasn't gonna do this...but now I'm gonna do this. Let's go back to GUILD WARS 1! 250 in-game years ago:

Asura Scan  Radiation Field  Technobabble  "...the ultimate in magic, mechanized party protection."  and Asura Transportation Gates.

[starlinvf.1358]

30 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Just because the houses look like they're from 500 years ago it isn't automatically a medieval fantasy. Robots being made out of cogs and machinery used in steam machines or the entirety of core Engi and Scrapper is more of a steampunk genre, isn't it? That's what GW2 had for quite a few years.

Buildings made up of computers with huge displays, portals capable of moving you hundreds of kilometers are something you'd see in a sci-fi movie, not a medieval movie.
Strapping "fantasy" on the end doesn't change it.

Medieval fantasy doesn't need the technology it features to be scientifically explainable. This is why the idea of magic infused rocks becoming servants that can do all kinds of things, like fight or do whatever is a perfectly fine thing in the game. 

If you hate "futuristic" elements, because it doesn't fit the idea of "medieval fantasy that's GW2" then them guns, grenades need to go in the bin along with all the steampunk stuff and things like Asura gates, golems, giant computers, screens and waypoints.

 

 “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

This is why the single most advanced piece of technology in Divinity’s Teach is a giant accordion, while the savage and tribalistic Charr have a literal industrial complex. 

Asurans have mathematical proofs for how magic in Tyria is just energy with low dissipation rates, Sylvari tamed a jungle with low impact terraforming and can bioengineer physical structures, which only leaves the Norn with their subsistive hunter life style and shape shifting, as the closest thing to medieval or fantasy in this game. 

This game has been Scifi from start. Scifi with eldritch horrors.  

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

2 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Just because the houses look like they're from 500 years ago it isn't automatically a medieval fantasy. Robots being made out of cogs and machinery used in steam machines or the entirety of core Engi and Scrapper is more of a steampunk genre, isn't it? That's what GW2 had for quite a few years.

Buildings made up of computers with huge displays, portals capable of moving you hundreds of kilometers are something you'd see in a sci-fi movie, not a medieval movie.
Strapping "fantasy" on the end doesn't change it.

Medieval fantasy doesn't need the technology it features to be scientifically explainable. This is why the idea of magic infused rocks becoming servants that can do all kinds of things, like fight or do whatever is a perfectly fine thing in the game. 

If you hate "futuristic" elements, because it doesn't fit the idea of "medieval fantasy that's GW2" then them guns, grenades need to go in the bin along with all the steampunk stuff and things like Asura gates, golems, giant computers, screens and waypoints.

 

It's a medieval fantasy because it contains literally every single qualification of the medieval fantasy genre. At its most fundamental level, this game is about adventurers slaying dragons with swords and scepters and spells. These adventurers wear armour including heavy plate armour. There are nobles, guilds, castles, mounts, and feudalism. If Warcraft or Lord of the Rings is medieval fantasy, then so is Guild Wars.

The irony of this argument that keeps resurfacing — that high-tech elements occasionally appear in the game — doesn't contradict the fact that it is a medieval fantasy. In fact, it perfectly reinforces it. Asura technology is in this game's world supposed to be insanely advanced. But advanced compared to what? Compared to our real world today it isn't advanced. It's advanced in the context of a world that is otherwise mostly medieval or renaissance. I would argue that the only reason jade-tech and Asura tech can be called advanced in the first place is precisely because this is a medieval (or renaissance) world.

And for the record I have also consistently over the last 11+ years stated that I dislike Asura tech and think it's been a poor direction for this series, so I'm being perfectly consistent. The existence of technology like that co-existing with peasants literally farming fields with sickles is frankly absurd. But as I already said elsewhere in this discussion, these things are not on the same level of suspension of disbelief. Suspending my disbelief that fighting with maces and iron swords can co-exist with a world that has complete industrial automation is already a big ask, but not as big as personal drones that appear out of nowhere to assist players, or modern cities with neon signs. It's a false equivalency.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that if I don't want to use any of these other things, I don't have to. If I want max stats, I have to use a jade bot. It's just one more step in the diametrically opposite direction that I think this game's art, world, and general aesthetics should be moving. When these "steps" are optional, I can at least bear with that, as I do with big asinine cat cushions or whatever.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[kharmin.7683]

So, slaying dragons with swords and having magic in abundance defines the medieval genre?   Holy smokes.

Edited October 20, 2023 by kharmin.7683
grammar!

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

19 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

It's a medieval fantasy because it contains literally every single qualification of the medieval fantasy genre. At its most fundamental level, this game is about adventurers slaying dragons with swords and scepters and spells. These adventurers wear armour including heavy plate armour. There are nobles, guilds, castles, mounts, and feudalism. If Warcraft or Lord of the Rings is medieval fantasy, then so is Guild Wars.

The irony of this argument that keeps resurfacing — that high-tech elements occasionally appear in the game — doesn't contradict the fact that it is a medieval fantasy. In fact, it perfectly reinforces it. Asura technology is in this game's world supposed to be insanely advanced. But advanced compared to what? Compared to our real world today it isn't advanced. It's advanced in the context of a world that is otherwise mostly medieval or renaissance. I would argue that the only reason jade-tech and Asura tech can be called advanced in the first place is precisely because this is a medieval (or renaissance) world.

And for the record I have also consistently over the last 11+ years stated that I dislike Asura tech and think it's been a poor direction for this series, so I'm being perfectly consistent. The existence of technology like that co-existing with peasants literally farming fields with sickles is frankly absurd. But as I already said elsewhere in this discussion, these things are not on the same level of suspension of disbelief. Suspending my disbelief that fighting with maces and iron swords can co-exist with a world that has complete industrial automation is already a big ask, but not as big as personal drones that appear out of nowhere to assist players, or modern cities with neon signs. It's a false equivalency.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that if I don't want to use any of these other things, I don't have to. If I want max stats, I have to use a jade bot. It's just one more step in the diametrically opposite direction that I think this game's art, world, and general aesthetics should be moving. When these "steps" are optional, I can at least bear with that, as I do with big asinine cat cushions or whatever.

This is why I love bringing up GW1, all the insane Asura Tech you see has been around since 2007, introduced in EoTN. GW2 didn't just jump to sci-fi from medieval fantasy on release. IF you look at the Charr you get steampunk, humans medieval, Asura is scifi and Sylvari are fantasy as well. There is no one theme to the game. This is what people are saying. Don't tell me that an Asura throwing grenades, mines and using scrap metal as a shield is medieval fantasy.

What I find weird is that a "personal assistant created out of magic infused stone that was created using more magic" helping you while you fight with swords is absurd and futuristic, but the idea of going into the mind of a giant dragon that is literally a huge jungle to kill it WITH A SWORD while outside you have dwarfs making calculations and whatnot is a perfect medieval fantasy

Kaineng City already didn't fit your idea of a "medieval fantasy" in GW1, because it was tens or hundreds of stories of sheet metal, concrete and wood piled onto eachother to create a crumbling city, far from what a medieval city(like LA or DR) should be, so a giant city lit with bright neons with holo fish swimming around is on the same level of "absurd" as a random drone giving you buff while you fight with a sword or entering the mind of a dragon to kill it with said sword.

If you want a medieval fantasy GW2 isn't it, don't complain that <insert feature> is not fitting into the game's medieval fantasy theme when there are literal steampunk and scifi elements in the game from years before.

[Randulf.7614]

It is not medieval fantasy. The arguments against technology in this world are baffling to me. This isn't GoT (happily) - an unchanging grim fantasy world. The thread of technology rising up against our enemies in place or in harmony with the old ways, has been part of the theme of the story since the core story where we took tehcnology to fight Zhaitan and won. That has slowly ramped up over time

The ancient races themselves used sophisticated magi-technology

GW1 even utilised it with Eye of the North and the Asuran and their gates

This is not a medieval fantasy game. It takes elements of course with the castles and social structures, but otehrwise borrows equally from other fantasy sub genres. The fact that this conversation is still being had is amusing, but it absolutely, hundred percent, unequivocably, is not a medieval fantasy game

Edited October 20, 2023 by Randulf.7614
typo

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

This is why I love bringing up GW1, all the insane Asura Tech you see has been around since 2007, introduced in EoTN. GW2 didn't just jump to sci-fi from medieval fantasy on release. IF you look at the Charr you get steampunk, humans medieval, Asura is scifi and Sylvari are fantasy as well. There is no one theme to the game. This is what people are saying. Don't tell me that an Asura throwing grenades, mines and using scrap metal as a shield is medieval fantasy.

What I find weird is that a "personal assistant created out of magic infused stone that was created using more magic" helping you while you fight with swords is absurd and futuristic, but the idea of going into the mind of a giant dragon that is literally a huge jungle to kill it WITH A SWORD while outside you have dwarfs making calculations and whatnot is a perfect medieval fantasy

Kaineng City already didn't fit your idea of a "medieval fantasy" in GW1, because it was tens or hundreds of stories of sheet metal, concrete and wood piled onto eachother to create a crumbling city, far from what a medieval city(like LA or DR) should be, so a giant city lit with bright neons with holo fish swimming around is on the same level of "absurd" as a random drone giving you buff while you fight with a sword or entering the mind of a dragon to kill it with said sword.

If you want a medieval fantasy GW2 isn't it, don't complain that <insert feature> is not fitting into the game's medieval fantasy theme when there are literal steampunk and scifi elements in the game from years before.

It didn't jump to sci-fi at all. Because it's not sci-fi. It's medieval fantasy.

Are you under the impression that grenades and mines are not medieval? Lol.

Kaineng perfectly fit within medieval fantasy in Factions actually. No electricity, no robots, no motor vehicles or neon signs. It was intended to parallel modern cities such as Dharavi and Kowloon, yes, but that's a tastefully executed parallel which doesn't require suspension of disbelief in order to be delivered. It's actually a perfect example of how good their design used to be when they incorporated high fantasy into the game's medievalesque world.

"If you wanted medieval fantasy GW2 isn't it" well as a player of the series since the beginning I think that's for me to decide, not you.

You continue to assert that fantasy elements somehow make the game's world not definable as medieval fantasy, as if you don't realise that those elements are literally what defines it as high medieval fantasy and not a simulation of medieval life.

These arguments are classic no true Scotsman. If you define away what makes Guild Wars 2 outside the bounds of medieval fantasy, you will create a definition so restrictive that literally nothing will fit within it. The reality that seems to for some reason anger people around here is that the game actually fits very neatly inside the definition of medieval fantasy. I would bet you literally couldn't name a single attribute of medieval fantasy that isn't present in Guild Wars.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

19 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

It didn't jump to sci-fi at all. Because it's not sci-fi. It's medieval fantasy.

Are you under the impression that grenades and mines are not medieval? Lol.

Kaineng perfectly fit within medieval fantasy in Factions actually. No electricity, no robots, no motor vehicles or neon signs. It was intended to parallel modern cities such as Dharavi and Kowloon, yes, but that's a tastefully executed parallel which doesn't require suspension of disbelief in order to be delivered. It's actually a perfect example of how good their design used to be when they incorporated high fantasy into the game's medievalesque world.

"If you wanted medieval fantasy GW2 isn't it" well as a player of the series since the beginning I think that's for me to decide, not you.

You continue to assert that fantasy elements somehow make the game's world not definable as medieval fantasy, as if you don't realise that those elements are literally what defines it as high medieval fantasy and not a simulation of medieval life.

These arguments are classic no true Scotsman. If you define away what makes Guild Wars 2 outside the bounds of medieval fantasy, you will create a definition so restrictive that literally nothing will fit within it. The reality that seems to for some reason anger people around here is that the game actually fits very neatly inside the definition of medieval fantasy. I would bet you literally couldn't name a single attribute of medieval fantasy that isn't present in Guild Wars.

Can you describe what medieval fantasy is? Robotics, giant computers, on demand teleportation and gates leading across the world sounds scifi to me. Steam machinery, enemies made of cogs and gears, grenades and firearms and the like sound more like steampunk instead of medieval fantasy to me, so.. 2 races started off as not medieval fantasy already. The sylvary has no medieval aspect either, only fantasy.
Just because humans fit medieval fantasy the whole game isn't a giant medieval fantasy game.

The Kaineng one is interesting, because last I checked what makes Kaineng a medieval fantasy in your eyes is... something from 400-500 years after the end of the Medieval period, with your logic a random Eastern European village from 1970 is the perfect medieval area. You know what's a better example of medieval fantasy in Factions? Shing Jea, Echovald and the Jade Sea.

As I said. GW2 is not one genre, because then the Charr would be living in an area like Queensdale fighting Centaurs and Bandits instead of driving tanks and flying helicopters against ghosts and pretty much everyone else, the Asura wouldn't be sending Golems to fight others or to carry their research equipment either.

[Vayne.8563]

9 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

"If it's a medieval fantasy game then how do you explain the fantasy elements?"

Because fantasy isn't just defined by having fantasy elements. In the book Madwand by Roger Zelazny, there's a world divided into dark and light and one side is fantasy and one side is science fiction. You can't just say, there are fantasy elements so the world is medieval. The only definition of fantasy is that you can't get from our world to theirs without breaking rules. Jurassic Park is science fiction because it explained how dinosaurs could be cloned. Star Wars is called science fantasy, because it makes not real attempt to explain anything or remain true to science.

This whole fantasy is fantasy and that's all it is and all it can be because I read Lord of the Rings is nonsense. I Dream of Jeanie is fantasy, because Jeanies don't exist. It's a fantasy TV series, with a genie in it. It also has telephones and tv. Bewitched is a fantasy series with a witch in it, because it's a fantasy series set ON EARTH in the 20th century.  It still has cars and phones and TV.

But medieval is a period that happened on Earth. Here. This world. Other worlds can have different rules. We have tanks and guns and airships, and magitech, golems with power cores. How is it that you get to pick and choose what fantasy means by an period of time that happened on a different planet, while ignoring things that have been here since launch? Why is it that you have such a narrow and selective view of fantasy that you can completely ignore what the game itself is showing you.

This game is fantasy because there's no real attempt to explain magic and magic makes it fantasy. But it's not medieval fantasy because since launch it has contained other elements. The medieval part is simply you bringing prejudices from reading other stuff and thinking that's how it has to be.

Edit: It's not even really a term. Swords and sorcery is what you're probably looking for.

Edit: A Complete Overview of 18 Fantasy Subgenres - 2023 - MasterClass  Note medieval fantasy isn't listed here. It's not that no one uses the word, in the way that people call insect bugs. There is an order of true bugs, but most people just are using the wrong word.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Vayne.8563

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

3 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Can you describe what medieval fantasy is? Robotics, giant computers, on demand teleportation and gates leading across the world sounds scifi to me. Steam machinery, enemies made of cogs and gears, grenades and firearms and the like sound more like steampunk instead of medieval fantasy to me, so.. 2 races started off as not medieval fantasy already. The sylvary has no medieval aspect either, only fantasy.
Just because humans fit medieval fantasy the whole game isn't a giant medieval fantasy game.

The Kaineng one is interesting, because last I checked what makes Kaineng a medieval fantasy in your eyes is... something from 400-500 years after the end of the Medieval period, with your logic a random Eastern European village from 1970 is the perfect medieval area. You know what's a better example of medieval fantasy in Factions? Shing Jea, Echovald and the Jade Sea.

As I said. GW2 is not one genre, because then the Charr would be living in an area like Queensdale fighting Centaurs and Bandits instead of driving tanks and flying helicopters against ghosts and pretty much everyone else, the Asura wouldn't be sending Golems to fight others or to carry their research equipment either.

Sure. Medieval fantasy is defined by "works where aspects of medieval history such as legends from the Middle Ages, and aesthetics such as medievalism, overlap with fantasy."

Just the fact that you can identify a handful of elements from outside of the traditional medieval fantasy genre doesn't make it not medieval fantasy. In fact, again, I would argue that this is actually what defines medieval fantasy. Asura tech may not be one example of an element of medieval history or aesthetic, but no less so than goblin alchemists in flying machines, or dwarf tinkerers — mainstays of the medieval fantasy genre going back almost to the beginning. In fact, further, I would posit that the Asura are basically an elaboration or expansion on these very two tropes.

Arenanet never set out to make a game that's outside of medieval fantasy, but rather to make a medieval fantasy world that avoids traditional tropes. In many cases these come in the form of almost superficial distinctions. Take the sylvari for example — basically, they're traditional elves. Except they're plants and instead of being the most ancient species they're the most novel species. It's not even some huge stretch of the classic fantasy trope, they just changed a couple of things to make it more interesting. Things such as forest bandits are virtually completely unaltered. There are examples on the other end of the spectrum where they incorporated elements that are totally unique, but ironically neither Asura nor Charr are even that much of a departure from established tropes, for example they could have easily been introduced into Magic the Gathering without feeling out-of-place at all.

These arguments are akin to the idea that, had Tolkien given Frodo a laser instead of a ring, Lord of the Rings would be science fiction and not medieval fantasy. Obviously that's ludicrous. The functional difference between staffs that can shoot beams of energy or a laser gun hardly exists and is purely superficial. You can call it sci-fi, but then we need to define the sci-fi genre, and no matter what definition we use, it's safe to say that science fiction is not defined merely by laser guns and robots. These elements can exist within any genre just as swords can exist in science fiction without it being definable as medieval fantasy by that singular fact alone.

"what makes Kaineng a medieval fantasy in your eyes is... something from 400-500 years after the end of the Medieval period" Yes. Just like flying machines and massive palaces, which both didn't exist in the middle ages yet are medieval fantasy mainstays. That's literally what determines the difference between medieval fantasy and historical fiction. Also, as a sidenote, I'm frankly unsure of what exactly makes Kaineng in GW1 an example of what you mean. The whole city was basically just bamboo shacks piled on top of each other, something that certainly would have been possible in medieval China given the necessary population density, even without fantasy elements. The rest of the architecture was of the traditional Chinese style.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Sure. Medieval fantasy is defined by "works where aspects of medieval history such as legends from the Middle Ages, and aesthetics such as medievalism, overlap with fantasy."

Just the fact that you can identify a handful of elements from outside of the traditional medieval fantasy genre doesn't make it not medieval fantasy. In fact, again, I would argue that this is actually what defines medieval fantasy. Asura tech may not be one example of an element of medieval history or aesthetic, but no less so than goblin alchemists in flying machines, or dwarf tinkerers — mainstays of the medieval fantasy genre going back almost to the beginning. In fact, further, I would posit that the Asura are basically an elaboration or expansion on these very two tropes.

Arenanet never set out to make a game that's outside of medieval fantasy, but rather to make a medieval fantasy world that avoids traditional tropes. In many cases these come in the form of almost superficial distinctions. Take the sylvari for example — basically, they're traditional elves. Except they're plants and instead of being the most ancient species they're the most novel species. It's not even some huge stretch of the classic fantasy trope, they just changed a couple of things to make it more interesting. Things such as forest bandits are virtually completely unaltered. There are examples on the other end of the spectrum where they incorporated elements that are totally unique, but ironically neither Asura nor Charr are even that much of a departure from established tropes, for example they could have easily been introduced into Magic the Gathering without feeling out-of-place at all.

These arguments are akin to the idea that, had Tolkien given Frodo a laser instead of a ring, Lord of the Rings would be science fiction and not medieval fantasy. Obviously that's ludicrous. The functional difference between staffs that can shoot beams of energy or a laser gun hardly exists and is purely superficial. You can call it sci-fi, but then we need to define the sci-fi genre, and no matter what definition we use, it's safe to say that science fiction is not defined merely by laser guns and robots. These elements can exist within any genre just as swords can exist in science fiction without it being definable as medieval fantasy by that singular fact alone.

"what makes Kaineng a medieval fantasy in your eyes is... something from 400-500 years after the end of the Medieval period" Yes. Just like flying machines and massive palaces, which both didn't exist in the middle ages yet are medieval fantasy mainstays. That's literally what determines the difference between medieval fantasy and historical fiction. Also, as a sidenote, I'm frankly unsure of what exactly makes Kaineng in GW1 an example of what you mean. The whole city was basically just bamboo shacks piled on top of each other, something that certainly would have been possible in medieval China given the necessary population density, even without fantasy elements. The rest of the architecture was of the traditional Chinese style.

A handful of elements. You mean helicopters, pistols, tanks, airships, golems, charr cars, watchknights...I think you have a pretty strange view of a couple of elements. There is science in this world. Asurans, one of five races do research. The iron legion charr build things that are not magical, but technological. That's 2 of the 5 races that aren't just using magic, but technology to do things. The fact that you can't acknoweledge this is clearly a you issue.

250  years ago, what was New York City like? No electric lights, no cell phones no computers.  Well, Guild Wars 1 was 250 years ago. A living world evolves. This world evolves. Even magic on this world evolves, but so does technology. That fact that you insist on calling this medieval fantasy when it's barely ever referred to as a sub genre and it's a topic I've studied intensively over the years, btw, is indicative of a prejudice. In the industry we called guys l.ike you fantasy purists, but what you really are part of is a group of people that doesn't acknowledge that literature has evolved past that. It's like th people who missed the new wave of science fiction that started with Dune. Times change. Genres evolve. You can live in the past, that's fine, but don't expect literature or games to stay there with you.

There are subgenres like magical realism and slipstream and alternate history and those are all fair game. But if you want to talk about medieval fantasy this game isn't it, period. It's not a guess. It's a fact. Your opinion doesn't change that. Tanks and cars and helicopters make it so.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Vayne.8563

[Beleron.9347]

The funny thing is, this sort of thing isn't even that new. For all that people go on about thispunk or thatpunk or invoke the dreaded specter of postmodernism (which itself is over fifty years  old at this point), its also the case that comic books had this kind of hodgepodge right from the start, with characters based on science and technology rubbing shoulders with magically or mythologically based figures. Similarly, the pulp genre tended to lack the  distinction between science fiction and fantasy, a distinction which, if not for Tolkien (who very much was a medievalist, as well as a critic of technology or even simply a Luddite) and some others, we might be inclined to see as much as an exception as a norm. Further examples can be found in the earliest D&D modules, e.g. Expedition to Barrier Peak.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

4 minutes ago, Beleron.9347 said:

The funny thing is, this sort of thing isn't even that new. For all that people go on about thispunk or thatpunk or invoke the dreaded specter of postmodernism (which itself is over fifty years  old at this point), its also the case that comic books had this kind of hodgepodge right from the start, with characters based on science and technology rubbing shoulders with magically or mythologically based figures. Similarly, the pulp genre tended to lack the  distinction between science fiction and fantasy, a distinction which, if not for Tolkien (who very much was a medievalist, as well as a critic of technology or even simply a Luddite) and some others, we might be inclined to see as much as an exception as a norm. Further examples can be found in the earliest D&D modules, e.g. Expedition to Barrier Peak.

So many writers aping Tolkien did so much damage to perception of the fantasy genre, and just the genre as a whole.

[LordThy.4927]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:44 AM, Evil Darkness.3061 said:

Why even have the kitten thing in the game if its this kitten hard to get! This is the main selling point to get the expac and you all make it this hard? You all should give me  90% of my money back! The kitten mount is the main selling point of the game! And don't even get me started on the  Jade Bot!

A mount is the MAIN selling point of an expansion? lol You don't like the Turtle, you don't do the achievement, easy! Did you expect a single-user turtle mount that runs faster than a raptor, flies higher than a skyscle and one-shots Champions with its' cannons? xD

[The Greyhawk.9107]

How about No.

[LordThy.4927]

GW2 is a "Medieval Fantasy Only" MMO? hah I didn't see people rage-quitting or trying to cancel Engineers at launch (2012!). xD

It's more like a fantasy/steampunk mix. It's also ANET's game designers' prerogative to do whatever they want with THEIR OWN game. 😉

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:22 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

A handful of elements. You mean helicopters, pistols, tanks, airships, golems, charr cars, watchknights...I think you have a pretty strange view of a couple of elements. There is science in this world. Asurans, one of five races do research. The iron legion charr build things that are not magical, but technological. That's 2 of the 5 races that aren't just using magic, but technology to do things. The fact that you can't acknoweledge this is clearly a you issue.

250  years ago, what was New York City like? No electric lights, no cell phones no computers.  Well, Guild Wars 1 was 250 years ago. A living world evolves. This world evolves. Even magic on this world evolves, but so does technology. That fact that you insist on calling this medieval fantasy when it's barely ever referred to as a sub genre and it's a topic I've studied intensively over the years, btw, is indicative of a prejudice. In the industry we called guys l.ike you fantasy purists, but what you really are part of is a group of people that doesn't acknowledge that literature has evolved past that. It's like th people who missed the new wave of science fiction that started with Dune. Times change. Genres evolve. You can live in the past, that's fine, but don't expect literature or games to stay there with you.

There are subgenres like magical realism and slipstream and alternate history and those are all fair game. But if you want to talk about medieval fantasy this game isn't it, period. It's not a guess. It's a fact. Your opinion doesn't change that. Tanks and cars and helicopters make it so.

Well yeah. In a game world where there are literally millions of elements, that's only a handful of elements.

There was science in the medieval world. Science is medieval. Roger Bacon created the scientific method. Even when we look at the Asura, their metaphysical ideas are centered around a principle they call the Great Alchemy. Alchemy. Even their technology itself has a medieval theme and is an explicit nod to medieval scientific ideas.

250 years before 1200AD, what was the world like? The middle ages was a thousand years long.

I'll have any expectations I want of literature and games. I'm the consumer. I'll influence them in whatever way I can and whatever way I want.

You don't actually have an argument left here, you literally just return to your initial argument which has already been addressed exhaustively. Fantastical elements in a medievalesque world don't make it not medieval fantasy, but exactly the opposite: those fantastical elements are what distinguishes it as medieval fantasy. You can keep repeating the same argument again and again but my refutation will remain exactly the same.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I'd be interested to read the statement(s) where ArenaNet declared Guild War2 to be a medieval fantasy-based-only game.  I can't remember ever reading anything of the sort.  🤷‍♂️

Edited October 22, 2023 by Inculpatus cedo.9234
typo

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

7 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Well yeah. In a game world where there are literally millions of elements, that's only a handful of elements.

There was science in the medieval world. Science is medieval. Roger Bacon created the scientific method. Even when we look at the Asura, their metaphysical ideas are centered around a principle they call the Great Alchemy. Alchemy. Even their technology itself has a medieval theme and is an explicit nod to medieval scientific ideas.

250 years before 1200AD, what was the world like? The middle ages was a thousand years long.

I'll have any expectations I want of literature and games. I'm the consumer. I'll influence them in whatever way I can and whatever way I want.

You don't actually have an argument left here, you literally just return to your initial argument which has already been addressed exhaustively. Fantastical elements in a medievalesque world don't make it not medieval fantasy, but exactly the opposite: those fantastical elements are what distinguishes it as medieval fantasy. You can keep repeating the same argument again and again but my refutation will remain exactly the same.

It doesn't matter how long the period lasted and you can repeat "but but GW2 is medieval fantasy" all you want when from the get go Anet has been throwing together different genres, not only medieval fantasy, because we'd be stuck wearing knight armor and hitting eachother with swords screaming "my god is better than yours".

You could also look at the society aspect of the game, which yet again perfectly shows that Anet threw in elements from multiple genres and eras, because certain elements of the game would be punished by mutilation in medieval times.

You also forgot the whole idea that the only part of the game that can be considered to be a medieval fantasy is the human race, the Asura are scifi, the Charr are steampunk, Sylvari are pure fantasy and Norn are Nordic folklore-ish.
The first 2-3 years of the game has been pretty much steampunk inspired, outside of the specific race areas.. you know, Steam enemies, giant robots made up of watchwork mechanisms, helicopters and whatnot. 

If you want a proper medieval fantasy Guild Wars then that started in 2005, you can call GW1 medieval fantasy, well maybe not EoTN.

As you said:

7 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

You can keep repeating the same argument again and again but my refutation will remain exactly the same.

You can keep repeating that GW2 is a medieval fantasy, but.. the issue is that saying that the middle ages lasted this or that long while ignoring elements from other genres won't make it a stronger argument. I could say Cyberpunk 2077 is a Western themed game "because there's revolvers and double barreled shotguns" while ignoring everything else, yet the game wouldn't be a western themed game. The same way you focusing only on the elements that fit medieval fantasy, while ignoring every other elements from different genres won't make the game a medieval fantasy.