Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[nia.4725]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

[Astralporing.1957]

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.And i'd rather see veteran fractal runners, because raider, even if decent skillwise (which by no means is guaranteed - some are so used to being nannied by druids and chronos they just can't function without them), may not even know the fractal encounter.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.Recognition, yes, but for the most part the players that assign some kind of

status

to raiding are raiding themselves. Saying that this kind of status "encourages others to play the game" is really far-fetched. Especially when a huge majority of players are casual and do not really care about all that hardcore stuff.

[nia.4725]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.And i'd rather see veteran fractal runners, because raider, even if decent skillwise (which by no means is guaranteed - some are so used to being nannied by druids and chronos they just can't function without them), may not even know the fractal encounter.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.Recognition, yes, but for the most part the players that assign some kind of

status

to raiding are raiding themselves. Saying that this kind of status "encourages others to play the game" is really far-fetched. Especially when a huge majority of players are casual and do not really care about all that hardcore stuff.

Yeah ofc, but there's no such thing as an indicator of being a "fractal veteran". You only have those new and expensive titles (fractal god blabla) but they're not just being veteran, they're a relic sink. So you can be a veteran and not have that title. So, you can't really know when someone is a fractal veteran.

I haven't said that the status encourages others to play the game.

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

Tbh if they don’t add easy mode but instead added an internal spectator mode to raids I’d be really happy. I’d learn by swapping between players perspectives myself while they’re Live Mid-Raid to learn what they are doing and WHY they are doing it, learning through your own logic. Something you can’t do by watching a stream of the content from one viewpoint.

Just an idea. I know it can’t happen bc of the amount of time it’d take implementing such a thing, if it is at all possible in the first place.

I will do raids at 1 point but that will be a while away I think.

Edit: Grammar error.

[Cerioth.7062]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.And i'd rather see veteran fractal runners, because raider, even if decent skillwise (which by no means is guaranteed - some are so used to being nannied by druids and chronos they just can't function without them), may not even know the fractal encounter.

I dont know, fractals are more carry-heavy than raids. Raids have some actual personal responsibility. You cannot carry the DPS through Sabetha, Slothasor or any other personal responsibilty heavy encxounters.

[nia.4725]

@TotallyNotJazzie.1493 said:Tbh if they don’t add easy mode but instead added an internal spectator mode to raids I’d be really happy. I’d learn by swapping between players perspectives myself while they’re Live Mid-Raid to learn what they are doing and WHY they are doing it, learning through your own logic. Something you can’t do by watching a stream of the content from one viewpoint.

Just an idea. I know it can’t happen bc of the amount of time it’d take implementing such a thing, if it is at all possible in the first place.

I will do raids at 1 point but that will be a while away I think.

Edit: Grammar error.

This would be very cool but I think that we'd only see a whole load of colored AoEs. The visual clutter in raids is horrible, since players are pretty much stacked unless a mechanic forces them to separate from each other. I don't think the mechanics and even maybe the boss would be really visible : (

[TotallyNotJazzie.1493]

@nia.4725 said:

@TotallyNotJazzie.1493 said:Tbh if they don’t add easy mode but instead added an internal spectator mode to raids I’d be really happy. I’d learn by swapping between players perspectives myself while they’re Live Mid-Raid to learn what they are doing and WHY they are doing it, learning through your own logic. Something you can’t do by watching a stream of the content from one viewpoint.

Just an idea. I know it can’t happen bc of the amount of time it’d take implementing such a thing, if it is at all possible in the first place.

I will do raids at 1 point but that will be a while away I think.

Edit: Grammar error.

This would be very cool but I think that we'd only see a whole load of colored AoEs. The visual clutter in raids is horrible, since players are pretty much stacked unless a mechanic forces them to separate from each other. I don't think the mechanics and even maybe the boss would be really visible : (

Ahhh I see :/ I’m glad you gave me this insight as a Raider yourself, as I’ve only watched them on YouTube and Twitch and it’s hard to appreciate the amount of visual clutter when you’re concentrating on listening to their instructions haha :)

[Hume.2876]

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

Of course raiding gives status - so do titles - that's why they have them. What's fascinating about GW2 journey into raiding is that unlike Blizzard - they kinda got it.Blizzard dropped the ball - they hired some new guys - SJW types who were appalled at the fact that raiders use to prance around in their unique skins. Those were the words they used to describe this on their own forums.

So to fix this they let "everyone' raids so hey could get similiar rewards from the Looking for Raid. But if you let everyone get a trophy - the trophies end up having less value. Status is lowered - the raiders feel like they have to repeat the content every week. Those guys drop out.. This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.

And for what? So a few grinders could feel they got a chance for the same rewards? The people that like to grind (aka do easy tasks over and over) have TONS of content just for them.

What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them. This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game. Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.

[Sykper.6583]

Ding Ding Ding, Hume put it best.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Hume.2876 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

Of course raiding gives status - so do titles - that's why they have them. What's fascinating about GW2 journey into raiding is that unlike Blizzard - they kinda got it.Blizzard dropped the ball - they hired some new guys - kitten types who were appalled at the fact that raiders use to prance around in their unique skins. Those were the words they used to describe this on their own forums.

So to fix this they let "everyone' raids so hey could get similiar rewards from the Looking for Raid. But if you let everyone get a trophy - the trophies end up having less value. Status is lowered - the raiders feel like they have to repeat the content every week. Those guys drop out.. This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.

And for what? So a few grinders could feel they got a chance for the same rewards? The people that like to grind (aka do easy tasks over and over) have TONS of content just for them.

What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them. This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game. Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.

'This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game'

You are joking right? Raiders are amongst the worst, they are not interested in the game as a whole, they are not empathetic or altruistic in mindset,. they are not interested in the majority, they are not interested in inclusivity. What raiders want is to be prestigious, an attitude that is the direct opposite of classic rpg gaming, they want to protect their own interests. Then you look at the elitist attitudes, the snobbery, the subjective and derogatory evaluation of players based on meter metrics, their over weighting of difficulty over gameplay pleasure (something many of them cannot even comprehend). No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

[rabenpriester.7129]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said: No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

I don't know what you are trying to be an ambassador of, but boy am I glad you are not one of the raiding community or Guild Wars 2 as a whole. Haven't seen such an insulting comment in a long time, hurled towards people who just want to enjoy a game. I hope you get better soon, so much hate towards an undefined group of people who have nothing in common but that they love and play a game can't be too healthy for you. You should be ashamed of yourself for writing this.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Hume.2876 said:This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.Nope. They are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors of raiding, that's true, but that's not the same. In fact, many raiders often tend to be quite disparaging and negative when commenting non-raid aspects of the game they play. Which may be mostly okay in raid-centered game, but in gw2 is not really a good advertising for the game. And in games like gw2, they may be very enthusiastic about raiding in general, while at the same time be quite negative about its implementation in this game (i have seen quite a number of raiders that loudly complain that raids in gw2 are bad, because they're way too easy, for example).

Generally, having your game being promoted by people playing a single niche and narrow subcontent, at the cost of negative voices from other parts of your player community is likely not so good a deal as you might think.

@Hume.2876 said:What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them.Problem is, the exclusive content won't make people to be "in awe" of top PvE players. For that those people need to be awe-worthy themselves - no rewards can confer that status on them. In fact, too many and too visible exclusive rewards like that can only cause the opposite reaction and make players look at the game in negative light.

@Hume.2876 said:This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game.Not where this "success" requires playing the content most players would not enjoy. Trying to make players have less fun in the game can only hurt the game health, never improve it.

@Hume.2876 said:Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.In games that are built around difficulty and/or organizational skill. In others, not so much.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@rabenpriester.7129 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said: No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

I don't know what you are trying to be an ambassador of, but boy am I glad you are not one of the raiding community or Guild Wars 2 as a whole. Haven't seen such an insulting comment in a long time, hurled towards people who just want to enjoy a game. I hope you get better soon, so much hate towards an undefined group of people who have nothing in common but that they love and play a game can't be too healthy for you. You should be ashamed of yourself for writing this.

Hate? don't take it personally, i'm generalising, (I admit however the generalization is unfair to many, so I acknowledge that) but 'ambassadors of mmorpg' is far far far from the truth. Most drama comes from 2 things , raiders and players that cant handle their emotions in pvp. Ask yourself this, have you really not seen any of the attitudes I refer to? Do you see elitism and self centered attitudes from players who play casually or wvw etc - ever wonder why that is?

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Hume.2876 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

Of course raiding gives status - so do titles - that's why they have them. What's fascinating about GW2 journey into raiding is that unlike Blizzard - they kinda got it.Blizzard dropped the ball - they hired some new guys - kitten types who were appalled at the fact that raiders use to prance around in their unique skins. Those were the words they used to describe this on their own forums.

So to fix this they let "everyone' raids so hey could get similiar rewards from the Looking for Raid. But if you let everyone get a trophy - the trophies end up having less value. Status is lowered - the raiders feel like they have to repeat the content every week. Those guys drop out.. This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.

And for what? So a few grinders could feel they got a chance for the same rewards? The people that like to grind (aka do easy tasks over and over) have TONS of content just for them.

What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them. This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game. Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.

'This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game'

You are joking right? Raiders are amongst the worst, they are not interested in the game as a whole, they are not empathetic or altruistic in mindset,. they are not interested in the majority, they are not interested in inclusivity. What raiders want is to be prestigious, an attitude that is the direct opposite of classic rpg gaming, they want to protect their own interests. Then you look at the elitist attitudes, the snobbery, the subjective and derogatory evaluation of players based on meter metrics, their over weighting of difficulty over gameplay pleasure (something many of them cannot even comprehend). No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

That's not the point. The point is Teapot got 5k live viewers when he hosted ERP2. How many would you expect him to get if he streamed Claw of Jormag? Top performance creates interest in other people. It's not the only way to do it, but it is a valid, effective way.

[Hume.2876]

'This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game'

You are joking right? Raiders are amongst the worst, they are not interested in the game as a whole, they are not empathetic or altruistic in mindset,. they are not interested in the majority, they are not interested in inclusivity. What raiders want is to be prestigious, an attitude that is the direct opposite of classic rpg gaming, they want to protect their own interests. Then you look at the elitist attitudes, the snobbery, the subjective and derogatory evaluation of players based on meter metrics, their over weighting of difficulty over gameplay pleasure (something many of them cannot even comprehend). No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

Nonsense. I haven't done alot of raiding in this game - but I was lucky enough to run triple trouble with the first guild to down it. These guys were really nice - very organized and gave super instructions. Same deal with my only experience raiding here (guild group). It was the same in WoW - where i did raid more - the raiders are really friendly helpful and know alot about the game.

One thing that some players don't get about MMOs is that some people really are better at them at the game. They clear the content faster, they know how the class mechanics actually work, they spot bugs quickly, they often work directly with the game makers on content - sometimes even doing early testing. They often raid. They have dedicated organized groups. These guys again are your ambassadors. They have twitch feeds, youtube videos, etc. They know all the lore etc. They make the best guild leaders, the best party leaders, and the best squad leaders - because of their knowledge and skill.

Don't want to slight the PvP guys - in a healthy game - it's the same deal there some PvP guys really are better. And because you want a healthy PvE and PvP community.. you want to recognize the superior players and let them have some exclusive content that challenges them.. It's just good business.

Arenanet recognized that they weren't serving the 'good players' with their current offering (especially on the PvE side)- and wanted to retain these guys. Hence the tougher PvE content of raids. You aren't going to retain or attract new players if you turn raids into another grind. We already have alot to grind on. GW2 is an excellent grind game IMHO. It was in the difficulty gated content that they were weak at.

Turning this question around - I asked the 'turn the raids into grinds' crowd - what do they think that will bring to the game? Seems like a bad business idea to me. The amount of people who would leave if they don't get ez mode/grind style raids is vanishingly small, IMHO. It's pretty much the same kind of content as world bosses/meta (zone) events etc.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Hume.2876 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

Of course raiding gives status - so do titles - that's why they have them. What's fascinating about GW2 journey into raiding is that unlike Blizzard - they kinda got it.Blizzard dropped the ball - they hired some new guys - kitten types who were appalled at the fact that raiders use to prance around in their unique skins. Those were the words they used to describe this on their own forums.

So to fix this they let "everyone' raids so hey could get similiar rewards from the Looking for Raid. But if you let everyone get a trophy - the trophies end up having less value. Status is lowered - the raiders feel like they have to repeat the content every week. Those guys drop out.. This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.

And for what? So a few grinders could feel they got a chance for the same rewards? The people that like to grind (aka do easy tasks over and over) have TONS of content just for them.

What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them. This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game. Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.

'This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game'

You are joking right? Raiders are amongst the worst, they are not interested in the game as a whole, they are not empathetic or altruistic in mindset,. they are not interested in the majority, they are not interested in inclusivity. What raiders want is to be prestigious, an attitude that is the direct opposite of classic rpg gaming, they want to protect their own interests. Then you look at the elitist attitudes, the snobbery, the subjective and derogatory evaluation of players based on meter metrics, their over weighting of difficulty over gameplay pleasure (something many of them cannot even comprehend). No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

You sound so salty and hateful, my friend. I wonder what would happen if we raiders spoke such bad from OW players.

[Voltekka.2375]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Hume.2876 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@Hume.2876 said:Being able to clear exclusive content gives them status. Status in PVE world encourages others to play your game - because they want the status.With all due respect but where exactly do you see the elitism and challenge in "a patterned repeating over itself" content? All you have to do is clear the instance a lot of times, familiarize with it then at some point it becomes trivial. That's why you have people asking for overhauls or harder instances, they are bored.

You want challenge and status recognition? Go competitive and show the world your skill. :)

You have a point here, but this "patterned repeating over itself" still gives status recognition. For those who don't raid, the single fact of "raiding" could mean that status recognition. When a raider joins my T4 fractals LFG, I trust them more to be a decent player because I know they raid. That is status recognition.

(Yeah, some raiders are bad still, but it's about the chance, not the exceptions)

Between raiders, the status recognition comes from other things tied to raids like world records. Hardcore raiding guilds like SC, US, qT, up, nxs... have more status. Raiders know them. SC has status because of their raids and their builds, but guilds like US are known for their raids /their raids give them a reputation where raid buyers trust them to buy raids from them/.

If you're one of those who don't give any kind of recognition to raiders, I'm glad for you. But it's obvious that raids give status recognition.

Of course raiding gives status - so do titles - that's why they have them. What's fascinating about GW2 journey into raiding is that unlike Blizzard - they kinda got it.Blizzard dropped the ball - they hired some new guys - kitten types who were appalled at the fact that raiders use to prance around in their unique skins. Those were the words they used to describe this on their own forums.

So to fix this they let "everyone' raids so hey could get similiar rewards from the Looking for Raid. But if you let everyone get a trophy - the trophies end up having less value. Status is lowered - the raiders feel like they have to repeat the content every week. Those guys drop out.. This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game.

And for what? So a few grinders could feel they got a chance for the same rewards? The people that like to grind (aka do easy tasks over and over) have TONS of content just for them.

What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players - even if that means some exclusive content for them. This will keep the guys striving for success and will aid in the health of your game. Gating by difficulty/organizational skill is a very good idea for at least some of the content.

'This has a horrible trickle down effect as top raiders are often the most enthusiastic ambassadors for your game'

You are joking right? Raiders are amongst the worst, they are not interested in the game as a whole, they are not empathetic or altruistic in mindset,. they are not interested in the majority, they are not interested in inclusivity. What raiders want is to be prestigious, an attitude that is the direct opposite of classic rpg gaming, they want to protect their own interests. Then you look at the elitist attitudes, the snobbery, the subjective and derogatory evaluation of players based on meter metrics, their over weighting of difficulty over gameplay pleasure (something many of them cannot even comprehend). No raiders are not great ambassadors of a mmorpg.

Gee, mate, that is some great constructive and helpful post, devoid of any hate or other negativities. And they say casual elitism isnt a thing.

[Dreddo.9865]

@Hume.2876 said:Nonsense. I haven't done alot of raiding in this game - but I was lucky enough to run triple trouble with the first guild to down it. These guys were really nice - very organized and gave super instructions. Same deal with my only experience raiding here (guild group). It was the same in WoW - where i did raid more - the raiders are really friendly helpful and know alot about the game.

A very good post allow me to quote what I believe is the most important part of it. It happens that a lot of people feel better to forget how they started the game - being PUGs, being carried, asking questions, seeking help, etc. I pay great respect to those 'open communities' that sacrifice personal time and put effort to organize events and help newcomers.

Ideally raids shouldn't need any other modes like an easier, introductory one as is discussed in this topic. If only 'raid people' were more open and willing to help and guide others.

[nia.4725]

@Dreddo.9865 said:

@"Hume.2876" said:Nonsense. I haven't done alot of raiding in this game - but I was lucky enough to run triple trouble with the first guild to down it. These guys were really nice - very organized and gave super instructions. Same deal with my only experience raiding here (guild group). It was the same in WoW - where i did raid more - the raiders are really friendly helpful and know alot about the game.

A very good post allow me to quote what I believe is the most important part of it. It happens that a lot of people feel better to forget how they started the game - being PUGs, being carried, asking questions, seeking help, etc. I pay great respect to those 'open communities' that sacrifice personal time and put effort to organize events and help newcomers.

Ideally raids shouldn't need any other modes like an easier, introductory one as is discussed in this topic. If only 'raid people' were more open and willing to help and guide others.

Well, at least from my experience... every player is a different world. I've had very different experiences, some bad ones, but when I started raiding I got more experienced players joining and teaching than idiots and unpleasant raiders. Every training squad I join (and I join more than one per week) ends up with more than 1 experienced player, and they, if not actively help the newbies, are always at least respectful and do their job. But as I say, every player is a different world. Some weeks ago I did a Sabetha training where a guy from Hop Skip Jump joined, and he was very friendly and helped the newbies. I've raided, too, with (that I can clearly remember) 3 people from Snowcrows. 1 of them was rude and ended up being kicked, the other 2 were always very respectful and nice to play with. It's funny because more often those "elitist" rude idiots who think they know everything are just ignorant raiders, and those who truly know what they're doing are very helping and friendly. But I think, in general, raiders do help newbies -but what we absolutely don't like is:

a) fakers (faking li, faking kp, faking experience)b) people who don't even bother to read a guide about the boss (come on... if you join a training from the lfg at least have an idea of the mechanics, even if we later explain them or you need more clarification, AT LEAST have a basic idea of the boss and your class)

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Hume.2876" said:What you really want from a game designers perspective is to have your playerbase to be in awe of both the top PvE and PvP players -

Lol, no, that's just not a thing, but it's adorable that you think it is.

Nobody cares about "those at the top."

At all.

There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in catering to the "elites," you want to create rewards that most players can meaningfully strive for (even if some get there faster than others).

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Feanor.2358" said:That's not the point. The point is Teapot got 5k live viewers when he hosted ERP2. How many would you expect him to get if he streamed Claw of Jormag? Top performance creates interest in other people.Now, ask yourself some different questions. How many of those 5k people were not interested in raids already? How many weren't interested in gw2? How many have become interested in gw2 as a result of this stream?

Now, compare that to some of the Woodenpotato's vids on lore.Are you so sure still, that raids generate that much interest for the game, that you can say raiders are "gw2 ambassadors"?

By the way, 5k, as far as generating interest is really, really low. It only seem big when compared to other gw2 streams. And it doesn't mean that non-raid content and players are bad at generating interest. It just means, that for gw2, streaming (of anything, including raids) doesn't generate much interest. And that's mostly due to the fact that gw2 is primarily for the kind of people that do not watch streams.

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Nobody cares about "those at the top."Now, that's patently untrue. There are players that do care. Specifically, those at the top. The people "at the top" think, that because being at the top matters to them, it's somehow important to everyone else, and for the most part do not even see that many other players do not care about it. And if they see it, they do not understand it, and feel the need to enforce that awe. It has always been that way. It's one of the reasons behind the community split, by the way.

[Sykper.6583]

Can either Astral or Ohoni prove that the average player actively cares for the Legendary Armor in Raids enough to warrant demanding acquisition elsewhere?

Especially now since PvP and WvW have alternative means to get this quality of equipment?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sykper.6583 said:Can either Astral or Ohoni prove that the average player actively cares for the Legendary Armor in Raids enough to warrant demanding acquisition elsewhere?Can you prove that average raider cares about it's exclusivity enough to prevent it from being more available?

No, of course i don't have any hard numerical data (but then, noone else has any as well). I do assume that a lot of players do care about legendary armor simply because that is the main function of that gear tier in the first place. A legendary that doesn't move players is simply a failure of design.Mind you, the raiders themselves do think that other players care about this set. If they didn't think so, if they thought that only raiders care, they wouldn't be so vehemently opposed about opening up its acquisition. Because in such a case it wouldn't matter.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Nobody cares about "those at the top."Now, that's patently untrue. There

are

players that do care. Specifically, those at the top. The people "at the top" think, that because being at the top matters to them, it's somehow important to everyone else, and for the most part do not even see that many other players do not care about it. And if they see it, they do not understand it, and feel the need to

enforce

that awe. It has always been that way. It's one of the reasons behind the community split, by the way.

Ok, fair point.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:Can either Astral or Ohoni prove that the average player actively cares for the Legendary Armor in Raids enough to warrant demanding acquisition elsewhere?

What would such proof look like?