The double standards of balancing

[Mewone.3247]

Remember the outcry when Power Mechanist was in every raid and strike because it was easy to play, had ranged damage and good cc? Even though the actual usage numbers were inflated by support Mechs/HAM? Ever since Power Mechanist was made into an absolute joke and a million bad iterations of Mechnical Genius, most people switched to (condi) Virtuoso. Since day 1 this spec was literally just as broken as Power Mechanist but with (bursty) condi damage:

- its fully ranged (even more than Power Mech)

- it has even better pierce

- its just as easy to play

- it has all the CC and utility in the world

So why exactly is nobody crying about Virtuoso when there is hard evidence this spec runs the endgame? Can you call the balancing of the game decent when this has been true for over a year now and the only reason the average pug clears cm strikes is this build? I will give you some numbers from the current cm strikes that are a good representation because they are the only "difficult" content this game has atm:

AHcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.1%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 11.07%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
10.93%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
9.96%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 7.03%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

XJJcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 27.28%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 16.07%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
10.47%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
9.81%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
7.82%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

KOcm: (Virtuso as only pure DPS option, rest in Top 5 is mixed DPS/support)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 41.97%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.29%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand
10.16%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 9.35%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 7.11%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald

HTcm: (Virtu as decent damage dealer and essential utility)

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.8%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 19.2%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 15.42%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Vindicator.png		Vindicator
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 13.44%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.4%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Reaper.png		Reaper

OLCcm:

Most popular professions:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 34.34%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Virtuoso.png		Virtuoso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.87%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Herald.png		Herald
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.34%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Scourge.png		Scourge
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/up.png 12.03%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Mechanist.png		Mechanist
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/down.png 5.75%		https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/static/professions/Firebrand.png		Firebrand

 

This picture has been cultivated because Virtuoso has never once seen any significant nerfs to its damage or utility. It is just as easy to play as ever (compared to other classes) and has no downsights. Where is the outcry and what is different to the Mechanist situation from 1 year ago?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the usage includes kills and wipes of the respective bosses which means the actual usage number of Virtuoso of successful kills is even higher. Natrually low KP groups that bring any DPS build will perform significantly worse and most likely won't clear the fight compared to Virtu stacks.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[AliamRationem.5172]

No argument that condi virt is overtuned, but part of the problem with mech was the mech itself overcompensating for bad play.  It wasn't just carrying average CM groups.  It was carrying everywhere.  And you don't see that level of dominance with condi virt.

A terrible player on virt isn't going to be competitive, as easy as it is.  A terrible player on pmech could be.  And that really wasn't just a tuning problem.  It was the game rewarding a play style that involved the game mostly playing itself.  And that was what made it so problematic.

[Mewone.3247]

3 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

And you don't see that level of dominance with condi virt.

This has to be a troll or are you really that high on copium? Or maybe you have no idea what you are talking about, can you tell me your experience with pugs and cm strikes?

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[Cyninja.2954]

What you are conveniently leaving out:

- mech was pushing 40% representation and hadn't even peaked, not 20% across all fights and not just condi. Official numbers had mech at 22% and growing.

- mech was severely over-represented in every content, even open world. Squads with less than 10-15 mechs where unseen

- mechs floor performance was far above where cvirt is now. it was around 25k without ANY skill use

That is not to say that cvirtuoso isn't overturned. It's by far not as overturned across all skil levels as mech was.

Yet again, arguing that one class was unjustly nerfed because another is overpowered is no serious argument for balance. Cvirtuoso needs some shaving (and should representation keep increasing, it will get some). Mech was in a tier of its own back then in many regards.

Some of us made arguments of how mech could or should be balanced without just simply nerfing the numbers. For example increase complexity, rework signets, etc. Unfortunately the forum crowd understood only 1 thing: mech is fine, don't nerf it. Which in hindsight was a kitten approach but hey, it's not like discussion weren't had about it.

Given I doubt the developers only balance around forum noise but actual in-game representation (not necessary actual performance). It must have gotten pretty bad number wise for them to nerf the newest toy, which on its own says a lot.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Mewone.3247]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

mech was pushing 40% representation and hadn't even peaked, not 20% across all fights and not just condi. Official numbershad mech at 22% and growing.

I already addressed this and it is due to Mechanist also being a very good alac dps/ heal spec.

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

mech was severely over-represented in every content, even open world. Squads with less than 10-15 mechs where unseen

Once again nobody cares about open world because Anet balanced around endgame.

 

2 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

mechs floor performance was far above where cvirt is now. it was around 25k without ANY skill use

Currently condi virtu has fast rampup, its one of the easiest if not the easiest spec with no downsights. You have a full sigil build that requires no understanding of anything other than pressing buttons on cooldown. 

 

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It's by far not as overturned across all skil levels as mech was.

What skills levels are we talking about? Both specs are so easy that it takes no effort compared to other classes to perform on them. Having insane single target and the best pierce while being 100% ranged helps.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Mewone.3247 said:

I already addressed this and it is due to Mechanist also being a very good alac dps/ heal spec.

Once again nobody cares about open world because Anet balanced around endgame.

I'm pretty sure the developers care. As do many players.

I get that you don't care since it doesn't fit your narrative.

Quote

Currently condi virtu has fast rampup, its one of the easiest if not the easiest spec with no downsights. You have a full sigil build that requires no understanding of anything other than pressing buttons on cooldown. 

Unless it pushes 25k with 1 apm, it's weaker than power mech was.

Quote

What skills levels are we talking about? Both specs are so easy that it takes no effort compared to other classes to perform on them. Having insane single target and the best pierce while being 100% ranged helps.

That's your claim. The reason mech was so strong was because it was strong across ALL skill levels, not only mid and top tier.

And again: cvirtuoso being strong on condi fights and overturned is no argument that mech was fine.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[AliamRationem.5172]

17 minutes ago, Mewone.3247 said:

This has to be a troll or are you really that high on copium? Or maybe you have no idea what you are talking about, can you tell me your experience with pugs and cm strikes?

I started by noting that it's overtuned.  Was that not good enough for you?  You asked what the difference was. I answered.  

[Sigmoid.7082]

6 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I started by noting that it's overtuned.  Was that not good enough for you?  You asked what the difference was. I answered.  

The need to read a post in full is trumped by the need to be angry at something. It's easier to cut-quote a post to fit the narrative and attempt to discredit someone that read it in full, understand it's nuance and respond. 

 

On the whole nothing you stated is really incorrect. The number of cVirt I've seen game mode wide pales in comparison to the number of pMech at it's peak. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Sigmoid.7082

[AliamRationem.5172]

9 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

The need to read a post in full is trumped by the need to be angry at something. It's easier to cut-quote a post to fit the narrative and attempt to discredit someone that read it in full, understand it's nuance and respond. 

 

On the whole nothing you stated is really incorrect. The number of cVirt I've seen game mode wide pales in comparison to the number of pMech at it's peak. 

I agree.  Pmech wasn't just overtuned like cvirt.  It was dominant everywhere in PvE.  So yes, you saw a lot more of it than you see cvirt.  As the OP noted, that number was also inflated by the support variant.  In short mechs were flooding the game like no other class ever has.

[Mewone.3247]

16 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

On the whole nothing you stated is really incorrect. The number of cVirt I've seen game mode wide pales in comparison to the number of pMech at it's peak. 

I literally posted usage of cm strikes aka endgame which is the content the game is currently balanced around. Nobody cares that you dont see a condi virtu in your 50 man octovine squad. Also your subjective perception doesnt mean anything and on wingman you cannot remove supports from the usage of peak Mechanist eras.

[Mewone.3247]

56 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Unless it pushes 25k with 1 apm, it's weaker than power mech was.

This point is so stupid I have hardly an idea how to respond if at all. Reaper, slb and other specs bench for almost 30k with auto attacks, by your logic these specs are broken. But they are not because nobody cares what the DPS of 1 APM is. If you think people who lack the mental capacity to press a single button did well in cm strikes on Mechanist, you are wrong. By usage only anyone with any knowledge of game balancing would understand that the current state leaves much to desire and there is a reason why it is this way. The spec is easy to get into and not even hard to master. Range damage has a huge advantage in this game because of dps uptime, so why does condi Virtuoso bench this high in the first place?

 

"I get that you don't care since it doesn't fit your narrative."

No I gave you the reason why this point is irrelevant.

 

"It must have gotten pretty bad number wise for them to nerf the newest toy, which on its own says a lot."

People everywhere cried, on the forums, on reddit and ingame. There were even squads that told people to play something else or they would get kicked which is something I have never experience before that and since then - so the Mech hate was real. Most agree that condi Virutoso is at least overtuned so tell me why hasn't there been changes in the past year to adress this? Why did they keep changing Mechanical Genius when Power Mech completely vanished from endgame because of its abysmal performance? Your point that Mechanist had to be the most broken class of all time because Anet did ANYTHING is actually really funny.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[AliamRationem.5172]

Just now, Mewone.3247 said:

This point is so stupid I have hardly an idea how to respond if at all. Reaper, slb and other specs bench for almost 30k with auto attacks, by your logic these specs are broken. But they are not because nobody cares what the DPS of 1 APM is. If you think people who lack the mental capacity to press a single button did well in cm strikes on Mechanist, you are wrong.

This sounds really important, but you should probably get your anger under control or this thread will likely get shut down.

[Cyninja.2954]

20 minutes ago, Mewone.3247 said:

This point is so stupid I have hardly an idea how to respond if at all. Reaper, slb and other specs bench for almost 30k with auto attacks, by your logic these specs are broken. But they are not because nobody cares what the DPS of 1 APM is. If you think people who lack the mental capacity to press a single button did well in cm strikes on Mechanist, you are wrong. By usage only anyone with any knowledge of game balancing would understand that the current state leaves much to desire and there is a reason why it is this way. The spec is easy to get into and not even hard to master. Range damage has a huge advantage in this game because of dps uptime, so why does condi Virtuoso bench this high in the first place?

 

"I get that you don't care since it doesn't fit your narrative."

No I gave you the reason why this point is irrelevant.

1. yes the goal post was moved a lot. We have had a ton of power creep since then. Power mech would likely not be as overpowered today as it was back then. I am glad you decided to make that distinction (oh right, you didn't)

2. power mech was doing it's damage at 1,200 range, piercing with a ton of utility on its rifle. Glad you made that distinction as well

3. power mech had a huge component of its damage tied to the mech (around 12-15k worth of it at its peak). The pet was always on target, couldn't be cced, and remains to this day near unkill able

Listen, I get it, you want to rage and are frustrated. It wasn't any one of our fault that mech was designed the way it was. The fact you can even draw ANY comparison to it today, nearly 2.5 years after EoD and it STILL outshines or compares (at its peak) to builds which have been power crept since then, is why it was SO overpowered back then.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Mewone.3247]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

yes the goal post was moved a lot. We have had a ton of power creep since then. Power mech would likely not be as overpowered today as it was back then. I am glad you decided to make that distinction (oh right, you didn't)

I love that you talk about power creep in this post because it just shows the sheer lack of understanding from Anet since it makes the content more and more free. Raids have been a joke for quite a while now and every year it has gotten worse. I have no idea how you could unironically imply that Anet knows what they are doing in any post considering this fact. Your point that Mech was stronger back then than Virutoso nowadays is just made up and has no evidence.

8 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

power mech was doing it's damage at 1,200 range, piercing with a ton of utility on its rifle. Glad you made that distinction as well

Once again why does this even matter in the first place? Nobody in a cm strike is just running and using Auto Attack? I just made that point to show you how bad your point was and that is still true. If you factor in other content like raids the range argument really falls off because most of them are golems at this point that you could have near perfect dps uptime with close range AA. There are builds that have strong benches with nothing but AA and it doesnt matter as long as its within a certain range.

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

power mech had a huge component of its damage tied to the mech (around 12-15k worth of it at its peak). The pet was always on target, couldn't be cced, and remains to this day near unkill able

I think this is tied to the point above and really only affects players who are afk while playing, otherwise it doesnt matter that you have 12k AA plus12k AA from the Mech vs. 30k AA on a different class

 

14 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fact you can even draw ANY comparison to it today, nearly 2 years after EoD and it STILL outshines or compares to builds which have been power crept is why it was SO overpowered back then.

The reason I remember this era so vividly is simply because they buffed Mechanist and overtuned it like they did with Virtusoso which is my point and one era (patch) later, they buffed Mechanist again because they programmed something in the wrong way that should have actually nerfed it..

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, Mewone.3247 said:

I love that you talk about power creep in this post because it just shows the sheer lack of understanding from Anet since it makes the content more and more free. Raids have been a joke for quite a while now and every year it has gotten worse. I have no idea how you could unironically imply that Anet knows what they are doing in any post considering this fact. Your point that Mech was stronger back then than Virutoso nowadays is just made up and has no evidence.

Once again why does this even matter in the first place? Nobody in a cm strike is just running and using Auto Attack? I just made that point to show you how bad your point was and that is still true. If you factor in other content like raids the range argument really falls off because most of them are golems at this point that you could have near perfect dps uptime with close range AA. There are builds that have strong benches with nothing but AA and it doesnt matter as long as its within a certain range.

I think this is tied to the point above and really only affects players who are afk while playing, otherwise it doesnt matter that you have 12k AA plus12k AA from the Mech vs. 30k AA on a different class

 

The reason I remember this era so vividly is simply because they buffed Mechanist and overtuned it like they did with Virtusoso which is my point and one era (patch) later, they buffed Mechanist again because they programmed something in the wrong way that should have actually nerfed it..

Listen, no one here disagrees that cvirtuoso isn't overpowered.

So let's agree, once cvirtuoso:

- is the superior dps choice on power and condi fights

- has superior support specs

- and is severly overrepresented in all content

We can consider it on the level of mech.

Unti then it's a busted/overperforming condi build which needs some attention.

I'm also not sure why you focus on cvirtuoso. Cscourge was far worse and was toned down.

Neither of these 2 builds (alac/dps cscourge might have been on the same level) in any way disprove that mech was overperforming for its time.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Mewone.3247]

22 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Cscourge was far worse and was toned down.

Csourge was hardly played until the patch before SOTO where it got to like 41k. With SOTO and to the suprise of nobody the access to all weapons and the new relic system absolutely destroyed all previous balancing efforts and Cscourge benched for 49k. Naturally it was toned down but the omnipresent class Virtuoso wasnt touched at all. So you want me to focus on Cscourge that was op for a short while in the early days of SOTO when Virtu is an issue since over a year? Also, I never said Mech wasnt overperforming for its time so why are you stating that as your last sentence? I think the one thing we can agree on is that Anet hasnt done anything to an overperforming class for over a year.

Edit: It appears most people in this thread agree that condi Virtu is overperforming but for some reason they are really mad about the point being made its as broken as Mechanist was when this doesnt really matter because it cannot be proven anyways. It was my subjective opinion backed up by wingman statitics that average cm strike pugs get carried by this build for a year now and there is no denying that. But thank you for wasting everyones time by focusing on this point and giving your anecdotes on how you don't see that many in your open world groups. I really hope there is at least some awareness for this issue but judging by the balancing preview I doubt it. All these Mechanical Genius changes really made no sense in the greater context of this class being dead in endgame pve but I love how Anet made it even worse to play months into its destruction.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Mewone.3247

[Gendalfs.7521]

Only argument I see here in forums about mech is that it was op 2 years ago and many were playing it. No one talks that Mech was nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. No one talks how mech is today. Is it good alacDPS or there are better ones, do AA 1 single button still does 30k damage. It was OP 2 years ago so it needs to suffer. @Mewone.3247you just cant win this fight. Change class or IDK...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Anecdotally speaking...  When mech was at its peak, my guild's strike group featured as many as 7 mechanists (1 was a HAM).  The damage was surreal, and the visibility was for the birds.  Since its reduction in effectiveness, there are no mechs featured.  2 play Virtuoso.  At least I can see, and the Claw is usually available for cleaves rather than being halfway across the map hitting someone's golem. 😝

[Cuks.8241]

While only anet really knows, I think pmech wasnt nerfed because of its performance at top lvl in cms for example.

Pmech was dominant everywhere, at all lvls. Yes also in OW. And it was dominant with literary a press of 1 button. And on top it packed more utility compared to cvirt.

Edit: oh and its freaking ugly. Noone wanted to see engies with machine guns and big ugly green bots everywhere. And this is not a joke.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Cuks.8241

[Gendalfs.7521]

Mech is definitely not ugly. Yes its green even neon green. Thats why I would buy a skin in a heartbeat or dye it.

BTW I play c virt time to time and while its awesome I dont like it. In group instanced content, you have healer and someone who tank damage. In OW I would rather use Mirage. Why? Because big minus of most classes is that you cant tank the damage and do damage. Thats the thing for Mech. Its easier because Big Daddy is a punching bag while you pew pew from a distance. 

My resolve would be remove autocast form Mech skills remove MG kitten and buff a bit rifle dmg and it will be OK.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Only argument I see here in forums about mech is that it was op 2 years ago and many were playing it. No one talks that Mech was nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. No one talks how mech is today. Is it good alacDPS or there are better ones, do AA 1 single button still does 30k damage. It was OP 2 years ago so it needs to suffer. @Mewone.3247you just cant win this fight. Change class or IDK...

Mech isn't a "was OP now it has to suffer" spec. Mech is a still extremely good, but was simply broken early on, capable of healing, supporting over range thanks to the fact that majority of the boons were from the Mech itself. Being a good DPS with a rather easy rotation that could also generate Alacrity as Condi DPS with minimal effort at maintaining Alac, Might and decent damage. You could also look at Power Mech, which at the time was the highest benching "just press 1" build that can do damage over range.ó on top of generating Alac and Might.

Even today Mechanist is a fairly simple and very good Condi DPS/Condi Alac and not even mention HealMech still being an outstanding healer with Power Mech still being an okay AlacDPS.

What does Virtuoso have? Condi DPS on the level of the current Condi Mech. No healing, no boon support.

Have people forgotten just how common Mech was? Not even Chrono or FB got close to just how common it was in Raids. 

[Zebulous.2934]

I didn't pay much attention to mechanist during the early months.  Was it really capable of excelling at every role?  Were there groups of full mech with the members filling different roles?

It would be fun to have each class able to fill all roles.  Wasn't that the original vision of the game anyway? The reason for supposedly abandoning the trinity?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

6 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

I didn't pay much attention to mechanist during the early months.  Was it really capable of excelling at every role?  Were there groups of full mech with the members filling different roles?

It would be fun to have each class able to fill all roles.  Wasn't that the original vision of the game anyway? The reason for supposedly abandoning the trinity?

HealAlac, CondiDPS(37k or 42k depending on build/difficulty), CondiAlac, PowerDPS, PowerAlac, Power builds came a bit after release thanks to buffs. The lack of trinity wasn't to allow people to fill all roles, because then you'd still have trinity. It was so that there was no dedicated healer or tank or whatever else. 

Professions having multiple roles they can fill is fine, the problem starts when a profession or elite spec excels at multiple roles and becomes the most popular for said roles.
Mechanist being a good DPS with little to not downside on going max range compared to melee, being AlacDPS capable of supplying Might and Alac at the press of a button from range(this one wasn't that much of an issue, Mirage, Renegade, they both could do this kind of gameplay and I'd argue that if range didn't matter Renegade was a clear winner) and being a healer that can keep up multiple boons, healing and barrier over range at the press of 1-2 buttons made it really, really strong pick early on for almost any role.

Right now Mechanist is still a very strong Condi and Condi Alac DPS pick and is still a rather popular AlacHeal, because it is still a strong option.

[SuavePuppy.2809]

I've seen plenty of complaints about CVirt since EoD launched - it absolutely needs to be looked at because it largely invalidates melee options the same way Rifle Mech used to.

But they've always had a knack for uneven nerfing and buffing among classes. I think they should be tweaking numbers more often than they do to try to balance things out, but here we are.

[dead.7638]

Usually people post this in the Mesmer forum, weird.