Hurl Venomous Axes with the Thief’s Expanded Weapon Proficiency

[BobbyT.7192]

They love torment because people complain less about the damage in PvP I guess.

Edited November 10, 2023 by BobbyT.7192

[Chips.7968]

Oh i am so excited.

 

I can't stop being excited.

 

I am overwhelmed with exictement.

 

hype train. woo choo. 

 

 

Will wait and see what arrives. I have zero expectations anymore, so who knows, I may *actually* be surprised when it does.

But I doubt it. 

[draxynnic.3719]

Hrrmn. Not what I was expecting/hoping for - another ranged weapon isn't what thief really needed, nor is another weapon that tries to be either power or condition damage depending on the offhand it's combined with (the offhand isn't going to change the ambush skill, which is very important for deadeyes). I'm also not convinced it's going to be bringing enough Torment to really be a viable alternative to scepter for spectre builds. We'll see how it plays out, but this feels like it could be a missed opportunity.

[itspomf.9523]

I am ... not impressed.

So rather than providing us a non-utility power cleave weapon (to act as a counterpoint to sword), we got ranger axes.  Rather than a ranged AOE condition weapon (to act as a counterpoint to pistol or scepter), we got ... a confused mess?

Thief's biggest problem since inception is that it has an identity crisis of trying to be both power and condition damage at the same time.  Please just pick one or the other and not something that changes based on one of only two off-hand choices (which themselves are already highly limiting).

[Howluffu.7259]

It reminds me a bit of Xayah from LoL with all the tossing things and retrieving with another button and immo if X number of them hits them

 

[Eugenides.1274]

- throw projectiles that persist in the world
- pull back projectiles to deal damage
- hit an enemy with a certain amount of projectiles to root them

We are now Xayah from League of Legends.

Looks like it could be fun.
Possibly a decent cleave weapon depending on how many targets skills 2 and 3 hit.

Still incredibly disappointed that we aren't getting it as an offhand weapon as well.
Thief and engi have been at 2 offhands since launch and it kinda sucks.
 

[Eugenides.1274]

Just now, Howluffu.7259 said:

It reminds me a bit of Xayah from LoL with all the tossing things and retrieving with another button and immo if X number of them hits them

 

kitten you beat me to it by like 5 seconds lol.

[Howluffu.7259]

1 minute ago, Eugenides.1274 said:

kitten you beat me to it by like 5 seconds lol.

Now we need Tengu race and it would be literally her

[Doul.9314]

Another ranged weapon.

 

MEH!

[Doggie.3184]

The Things I wish for:

-DPS attacks that don't have Forced Movement or Animation Lock attached to them. (Teleport to enemy is fine, I hate things like Measured Shot and Shadow Strike though.)

-Good AoE and Cleave.

-Hybrid Stats that scale for Full Condi or Full Power builds.

So far it looks pretty cool. I see buzzsaw projectiles and an Explosive Projectile that Thief hasn't had access to before other than ground target Cluster Bomb that does no damage (like I wish pistol bullets AoE exploded). I hope the 'melee attack?' actually cleaves too and isn't fake melee like Scepter and only hits 1 or ina line.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

I am ... not impressed.

So rather than providing us a non-utility power cleave weapon (to act as a counterpoint to sword), we got ranger axes.  Rather than a ranged AOE condition weapon (to act as a counterpoint to pistol or scepter), we got ... a confused mess?

Thief's biggest problem since inception is that it has an identity crisis of trying to be both power and condition damage at the same time.  Please just pick one or the other and not something that changes based on one of only two off-hand choices (which themselves are already highly limiting).

Pretty much. I think it does have a bit of potential to be ranged AoE (it looks like it has a lot in common with mesmer dagger - lots of piercing), but thief already has dagger and pistol which are heavily influenced by their offhand to determine whether they're power or condition weapons. And one thing I'd observed when axe was announced is that thief lacks a melee weapon with a condition-oriented ambush skill... it looks like that will still be true.

Axe... could well be a cool playstyle, but on an initial look, it looks more like it's a case of "hey, we had this idea we wanted to implement" rather than looking to plug any of the gaps thief currently has. A cool new playstyle isn't a bad thing, but it might only go so far if it's something that doesn't synergise well with the existing elite specialisations.

[LichOverlord.6329]

30 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much. I think it does have a bit of potential to be ranged AoE (it looks like it has a lot in common with mesmer dagger - lots of piercing), but thief already has dagger and pistol which are heavily influenced by their offhand to determine whether they're power or condition weapons. And one thing I'd observed when axe was announced is that thief lacks a melee weapon with a condition-oriented ambush skill... it looks like that will still be true.

Axe... could well be a cool playstyle, but on an initial look, it looks more like it's a case of "hey, we had this idea we wanted to implement" rather than looking to plug any of the gaps thief currently has. A cool new playstyle isn't a bad thing, but it might only go so far if it's something that doesn't synergise well with the existing elite specialisations.

Just for the sake of clarity, here - we're not talking about the trait "Deadly Ambush", yes? A skill proccing said trait? That's not what you mean by "ambush skill", is it? I just want to make sure we're clear here, since "ambush" is also the name of a mechanic for mirage and untamed, and a defunct trap for thief.

If by "ambush skill" you actually mean "stealth attack" - the deadeye mechanic (this is what I assume you're referring to) - then I'm inclined to agree, as right now the only stealth attacks we have off of melee weapons are for mh dagger/sword, both of which are simply power dps, and staff, which is still power dps with a self quickness attached to it - none of these apply conditions, so as a deadeye you'd have to rely on pistol, short bow, or scepter.

I guess in that case the key difference for stealth attack weapons would be that the skill which allows you to capitalize on your spinning axes is a shadowstep, and as such it puts you in melee range of an enemy, essentially turning the axe into a hybrid melee/range weapon for deadeyes, and something that will see more use at medium-to-close range than an option like pistols or rifle. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by LichOverlord.6329
updated for clarity

[Doggie.3184]

58 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much. I think it does have a bit of potential to be ranged AoE (it looks like it has a lot in common with mesmer dagger - lots of piercing), but thief already has dagger and pistol which are heavily influenced by their offhand to determine whether they're power or condition weapons. And one thing I'd observed when axe was announced is that thief lacks a melee weapon with a condition-oriented ambush skill... it looks like that will still be true.

Axe... could well be a cool playstyle, but on an initial look, it looks more like it's a case of "hey, we had this idea we wanted to implement" rather than looking to plug any of the gaps thief currently has. A cool new playstyle isn't a bad thing, but it might only go so far if it's something that doesn't synergise well with the existing elite specialisations.

Mesmer Daggers also proc storms of daggers flying all over the place for insane AoE. Hope these Axes are good AoE as well. Tired of having to rely so much on low DPS Shortbow for AoE and even lower if Condi build.

Specter doesn't really 'need' a new Melee weapon if they actually reworked it to be compatable with other weapons, especially if they made a traitline for Power Specter. Giving a Condi Melee Axe to Specter won't fix it's problems of being 100% incapable of using Staff and Rifle in any meaningful way let alone Dagger and Sword (which sword has been useless in PvE for ages already on all Specs), especially with Specter's reduced ini pool. It also still has a minor trait that requires them to use Scepter.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Nomad.4301]

I was hoping that this would be a ranged cleave sort of deal and .. maybe it is? It would be the one thing thief really doesn't have (outside of slow and clunky Shortbow skills) in its kit. It would be really nice to make theives actually able to do something in WvW zergs for once, unfortunately this looks to be more condi-focused (basing this on the skill 2 which appears to be a condi skill)? Conditions are generally bad for cleave (especially in PvP/WvW), I'm going to assume the axes are projectiles also which really sucks for WvW given the SEVERE projectile hate there, not to mention how reflects could mess with the whole "recall your axes" thing, I guess we'll find out if they're piercing, since the video shows a "ranged" weapon exclusively in melee and vs a single target when it looks like it would be better for cleaving. Animations look to be copied from ranger/mesmer which is meh.. If they make this weapon balanced around a non-specter then we can assume it will have higher initiative costs which ironically will make it bad for the one build that uses torment-based damage, if they balance it around the lower initiative pool of a specter then it will potentially be too spammable.. really they just need to remove the reduced initiative on specter 🤷‍♂️.

Also can't express just how much I dislike "hybrid" weapons like D/D, they try to be both condi and power but regardless of their damage it just feels bad to have half your skills be useless unless you're using something like celestial that can take advantage of both.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Nomad.4301

[draxynnic.3719]

6 minutes ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

Just for the sake of clarity, here - we're not talking about the trait "Deadly Ambush", yes? A skill proccing said trait? That's not what you mean by "ambush skill", is it? I just want to make sure we're clear here, since "ambush" is also the name of a mechanic for mirage and untamed, and a defunct trap for thief.

If by "ambush skill" you actually mean "stealth attack" - the deadeye mechanic (this is what I assume you're referring to) - then I'm inclined to agree, as right now the only stealth attacks we have off of melee weapons are for mh dagger/sword, both of which are simply power dps, and staff, which is still power dps with a self quickness attached to it - none of these apply conditions, so as a deadeye you'd have to rely on pistol, short bow, or scepter.

I guess in that case the key difference for stealth attack weapons would be that the skill which allows you to capitalize on your spinning axes is a shadowstep, and as such it puts you in melee range of an enemy, essentially turning the axe into a hybrid melee/range weapon for deadeyes, and something that will see more use at medium-to-close range than an option like pistols or rifle. 

Yeah, I was under the impression that "ambush skill" was the umbrella term ArenaNet used for skills that situationally replace the autoattack.

Harrowing Storm does seem to make it more of a skirmishing weapon than a full ranged weapon, which is true - however, it would still need a condition-oriented stealth attack in order to really work as an option for condition deadeyes (which is the elite specialisation most focused on stealth attacks). And if it's condition-oriented, then the axe/pistol variant, which is implied to be the power variant, will be less useful for power deadeyes. Which illustrates the issue with thief weapons having the "your offhand determines whether it's a power or condi set" theme. It made sense in core when there were only four autoattack-capable weapons to choose from, and thus they needed to get the most out of the weapons they did have, but this is going to be number eight. They can afford to specialise a bit more.

3 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Mesmer Daggers also proc storms of daggers flying all over the place for insane AoE. Hope these Axes are good AoE as well. Tired of having to rely so much on low DPS Shortbow for AoE and even lower if Condi build.

Specter doesn't really 'need' a new Melee weapon if they actually reworked it to be compatable with other weapons, especially if they made a traitline for Power Specter. Giving a Condi Melee Axe to Specter won't fix it's problems of being 100% incapable of using Staff and Rifle in any meaningful way let alone Dagger and Sword (which sword has been useless in PvE for ages already on all Specs), especially with Specter's reduced ini pool.

There's a spot at the end of the video where the thief stealths and then throws an axe that explodes, which suggests that at least it's not entirely single-target focused. And it looks like both the autoattack and the second skill pierce. Combined with the dagger offhand, it'll probably be... okay, for ranged AoE? We'll need to see the numbers and ingame performance to be sure.

Reworking spectre to be less dependent on Torment (and getting the initiative back now that elite specialisation 'tradeoffs' are mostly being removed) would certainly be another approach. Amplified Siphoning isn't used much in builds at the moment, so maybe something can be done with that. I do think, though, that just having another torment-focused weapon would be a low-risk way to break spectre out of double scepter builds. Mind you, just one stack of torment on the autoattack would probably help axe to do that.

[Meridian.9103]

Looks really cool, the first mew weapon for Thief that I'm actually a bit excited for since we got staff with Daredevil. I'm especially glad that they built in some kind of combo mechanic to break up the usual "Spam highest dps skill" Loop a bit.

However, I can't deny that still being stuck with only 2 offhand weapons leaves a very bitter taste. And is another mid range weapon really the thing Thiefs needed the most? I doubt it.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Meridian.9103

[ixon.2496]

It always leaves me a bit salty that they can make 20+ skills when they want to give Elementalist a new weapon, but then it comes to thief they avoid as much as possible.

[Doggie.3184]

2 hours ago, ixon.2496 said:

It always leaves me a bit salty that they can make 20+ skills when they want to give Elementalist a new weapon, but then it comes to thief they avoid as much as possible.

I feel like it'd be more profitable if they put in that effort too, cuz if they gave us Dual Axe I'd totally make a 2nd legendary Axe.

[LichOverlord.6329]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, I was under the impression that "ambush skill" was the umbrella term ArenaNet used for skills that situationally replace the autoattack.

Harrowing Storm does seem to make it more of a skirmishing weapon than a full ranged weapon, which is true - however, it would still need a condition-oriented stealth attack in order to really work as an option for condition deadeyes (which is the elite specialisation most focused on stealth attacks). And if it's condition-oriented, then the axe/pistol variant, which is implied to be the power variant, will be less useful for power deadeyes. Which illustrates the issue with thief weapons having the "your offhand determines whether it's a power or condi set" theme. It made sense in core when there were only four autoattack-capable weapons to choose from, and thus they needed to get the most out of the weapons they did have, but this is going to be number eight. They can afford to specialise a bit more.

There's a spot at the end of the video where the thief stealths and then throws an axe that explodes, which suggests that at least it's not entirely single-target focused. And it looks like both the autoattack and the second skill pierce. Combined with the dagger offhand, it'll probably be... okay, for ranged AoE? We'll need to see the numbers and ingame performance to be sure.

Reworking spectre to be less dependent on Torment (and getting the initiative back now that elite specialisation 'tradeoffs' are mostly being removed) would certainly be another approach. Amplified Siphoning isn't used much in builds at the moment, so maybe something can be done with that. I do think, though, that just having another torment-focused weapon would be a low-risk way to break spectre out of double scepter builds. Mind you, just one stack of torment on the autoattack would probably help axe to do that.

Well, the ability that recalls it isn't the ambush/stealth attack, its the third skill on the bar, the dual-wield skill... I wonder if that means it changes depending on the off-hand? I would imagine it would have to, otherwise it would be the first dual-wield skill in the history of the class to not have two variants depending on the off-hand...

As for the stealth attack, that would be the one that procs when you go into stealth, and as we saw in the trailer, they used the dagger offhand to go into stealth near the end there... and then the axe exploded, like you said

So, this might be a bit of a stretch, but perhaps the stealth attack *is* the exploding axe, and when used from stealth it also applies burning, which would solve the problem of the stealth attack needing a condi... does that sound like it all works out the way you were hoping?

I know this is perhaps a bit of a stretch, but that at least appears to be how it might work out - we won't really know until we get our hands on the weapon in the upcoming beta.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Can't wait!

Edited November 10, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Asra.8746]

5 hours ago, ixon.2496 said:

It always leaves me a bit salty that they can make 20+ skills when they want to give Elementalist a new weapon, but then it comes to thief they avoid as much as possible.

18* is the correct number for 1H.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Asra.8746

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, LichOverlord.6329 said:

Well, the ability that recalls it isn't the ambush/stealth attack, its the third skill on the bar, the dual-wield skill... I wonder if that means it changes depending on the off-hand? I would imagine it would have to, otherwise it would be the first dual-wield skill in the history of the class to not have two variants depending on the off-hand...

As for the stealth attack, that would be the one that procs when you go into stealth, and as we saw in the trailer, they used the dagger offhand to go into stealth near the end there... and then the axe exploded, like you said

So, this might be a bit of a stretch, but perhaps the stealth attack *is* the exploding axe, and when used from stealth it also applies burning, which would solve the problem of the stealth attack needing a condi... does that sound like it all works out the way you were hoping?

I know this is perhaps a bit of a stretch, but that at least appears to be how it might work out - we won't really know until we get our hands on the weapon in the upcoming beta.

Based on what they've said, axe/pistol will be something else that consumes spinning axes, but it will be power-oriented instead.

The thought did cross my mind that an exploding axe could mean burning... but it doesn't have to. The video goes to the logo pretty much the moment it lands, so it's hard to tell for sure if there's a burning graphic there. It doesn't look like there is, but there isn't enough to say for sure.

[Venport.3925]

Nice to see that everyone begging for dual axes got ignored, you show them what happens when class diversity is asked for anet 

[Dagger.2035]

Thief really needs a more reliable ranged weapon for WvW with non-projectile attacks or low cost AOEs.  My hopes were up when I heard this was a ranged weapon, but then I saw all of the blockable/reflectable projectiles in the video.

[Twilightmage.8309]

Yeah im just hoping for an aoe ranged power or hybrid weapon so my "sniper" deadeye can stop using a sword 80% of the time.