Willbender still needs a nerf [Merged]

[CafPow.1542]

5 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

It's true that other guardian builds tend to be needed more than DH, but DH on its own is very mediocre at best. 

But isn’t that good?

if it gets stronger he is OP very quick.

if he gets nerfed he is undertuned.

being mediocre can mean being in the middle, which is the goal balance-wise you know what i mean?

okay mediocre is not an exact point but a Place with a little bit of room. Maybe one could discuss that DH could need something extra or whatnot but generally, mediocre is good.

[Kuya.6495]

3 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

What I don't understand is why they won't apply the changes to wvw willbender that they did to spvp willbender.

It's a similar issue to celestial stats. Where Anet can see they are an issue for fun and competitive play in spvp so they get removed, but leave them to be available in wvw.

You guys keep saying this but the only reason nobody is complaining about willbender in spvp right now is because dh is more common. Once that gets nerfed, the wb complaints in spvp will resurface again because,  believe it or not, people still eat whirling wrath/whirling light in the face when downs happen and then wonder why 3 of them are dead all of a sudden.

Edited January 17 by Kuya.6495

[Nugatory.8920]

11 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You guys keep saying this but the only reason nobody is complaining about willbender in spvp right now is because dh is more common. Once that gets nerfed, the wb complaints in spvp will resurface again because,  believe it or not, people still eat whirling wrath/whirling light in the face when downs happen and then wonder why 3 of them are dead all of a sudden.

That's not really addressing the point though.

Why were the changes made to willbender in spvp not necessary to wvw willbender? Why shouldn't they be applied in wvw now?

Also spvp requires players to stand on a node. A scenario which plays into the strength of dragon hunters kit. There isn't the same requirement in wvw to stay on a node so dragon hunter wouldn't be as strong there. Seeing dragon hunter become more common in wvw wouldn't be a negative, but rather a positive as it would increase build variety.

 

Edit:

I think the point you were making was that people will still complain about WB in spvp if guardians return to it if DH is nerfed. Not because WB is overtuned, but because people die to stupid stuff. 

Possible.

People do die to stupid stuff. But I don't think that is an argument to say the WB nerfs weren't justified in spvp, or that they are not required for wvw.

Edited January 17 by Nugatory.8920
I accused you of not addressing my point and then went on to not address yours.

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

12 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

Why were the changes made to willbender in spvp not necessary to wvw willbender? Why shouldn't they be applied in wvw now?

Because spvp isn't wvw.

[Nugatory.8920]

8 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

Because spvp isn't wvw.

Obviously they are not the same. I even pointed out an example in my comment of how they are different. That DH is stronger in spvp because of gameplay requirements not present in wvw.

So would you care to try again and actually make a useful comment explaining why you think the changes made to willbender in spvp weren't also necessary in wvw?

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

1 minute ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

Because spvp isn't wvw

 

[Nugatory.8920]

1 minute ago, Itachi.3610 said:

 

Yeah, that's what I thought. I've never seen a person defending willbender actually make a reasonable point why the changes made in spvp weren't also applied in wvw.

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

Just now, Nugatory.8920 said:

Yeah, that's what I thought. I've never seen a person defending willbender actually make a reasonable point why the changes made in spvp weren't also applied in wvw.

The point I'm making is if we balanced wvw the same way we balanced pvp the gamemode wouldn't make sense. 

[Nugatory.8920]

14 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

The point I'm making is if we balanced wvw the same way we balanced pvp the gamemode wouldn't make sense. 

Well that's kind of a broad point to make. If you narrow it down to the topic we are addressing perhaps we could have a discussion.

The change made in spvp I'm thinking of is when they made flowing resolve a single use skill. Personally I think it should be the same in wvw and although more changes would be needed to bring willbender into line, that would be a good start.

Why do you think making flowing resolve a single use skill isn't necessary in wvw?

[itsnotmattylol.8457]

26 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

Well that's kind of a broad point to make. If you narrow it down to the topic we are addressing perhaps we could have a discussion.

The change made in spvp I'm thinking of is when they made flowing resolve a single use skill. Personally I think it should be the same in wvw and although more changes would be needed to bring willbender into line, that would be a good start.

Why do you think making flowing resolve a single use skill isn't necessary in wvw?

In line with what? Vague. 

 

29 minutes ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

Personally I think it should be the same in wvw

Personal opinion about making the wvw mode the same as the other mode. The problem is there are 3 distinctly different modes that need to be balanced differently. Spvp is 5v5, broadly saying a change for a small scale would be necessary in the MASS PLAYER war mode opens the door to silly "balance" changes that we've seen over and over again. 

 

And before you say I'm a willbender defender, I play every class and I main one that gets rock paper scissors pretty hard by willbender. I'm just tired of uninsightful suggestions purely based on "tHeY cHanGeD iT iN pVp"

[Nugatory.8920]

27 minutes ago, Itachi.3610 said:

In line with what? Vague. 

 

Personal opinion about making the wvw mode the same as the other mode. The problem is there are 3 distinctly different modes that need to be balanced differently. Spvp is 5v5, broadly saying a change for a small scale would be necessary in the MASS PLAYER war mode opens the door to silly "balance" changes that we've seen over and over again. 

 

And before you say I'm a willbender defender, I play every class and I main one that gets rock paper scissors pretty hard by willbender. I'm just tired of uninsightful suggestions purely based on "tHeY cHanGeD iT iN pVp"

You've used a whole bunch of words to say the same thing you wrote in your previous three posts and to be honest you've still failed to make a cogent point.

"tHeY'rE DiFfERNt..."

Just because two things are different doesn't mean they can't share common requirements. Pigeons and aeroplanes are different yet they both have wings, and pigeons and aeroplanes have a lot less in common than spvp and wvw.

So specifically why were the adjustments made to WB in spvp appropriate but would not be appropriate in wvw. 

And please don't type a variation of "tHeY'Re DiFfeRenT..." again, please.

Edited January 17 by Nugatory.8920

[XenesisII.1540]

Willbender, Harbinger, Catalyst all need to be toned down, just like Thieves and Mesmers and Rangers all needed to be toned down.

They are carry you builds, left alone to sell their expansion.

Send me your salty confusions because you know it's true. -->

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

2 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Willbender, Harbinger, Catalyst all need to be toned down, just like Thieves and Mesmers and Rangers all needed to be toned down.

They are carry you builds, left alone to sell their expansion.

Send me your salty confusions because you know it's true. -->

We can probably add Vindi to that too.

Also to be fair to ele mains, havent seen a ROAMING Catalyst since late November, they all jut come as part of a zerg now, so ppl either got tired of it, or some nerfs pushed the Catalyst bandwagoners elsewhere. Currently what I see is that particular portion of players went to Stealth classes.
...Or Ive been so busy running defense on busy matchups that all Ive been fighting/scouting against have been boon balls, maybe?
Catalyst just seems to have less playerbase and is actually reasonably killable now.

[KrHome.1920]

21 hours ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

That's not really addressing the point though.

Why were the changes made to willbender in spvp not necessary to wvw willbender? Why shouldn't they be applied in wvw now?

Willbender is a spec where the gear attribute combination you wear makes a huge difference. In WvW you can pick attribute combinations that will greatly increase your outcome against willbender, which you can't in sPvP.

WvW has a lot more variety. In WvW roaming a build is OP when you have the same skill level as its user and you get killed by it no matter whether you wear marauder, cele, trailblazer or soldier gear, no matter which weapons you pick, no matter which utility skills you pick and no matter which traitlines you pick.

Willbender is NOT one of these builds.

But:

Quote

because people die to stupid stuff. 

That is indeed a problem. Willbender is designed in a way that it is to hard for new players to understand what is going on and develop counter strategies.

[Nugatory.8920]

5 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Willbender is a spec where the gear attribute combination you wear makes a huge difference. In WvW you can pick attribute combinations that will greatly increase your outcome against willbender, which you can't in sPvP.

WvW has a lot more variety. In WvW roaming a build is OP when you have the same skill level as its user and you get killed by it no matter whether you wear marauder, cele, trailblazer or soldier gear, no matter which weapons you pick, no matter which utility skills you pick and no matter which traitlines you pick.

Willbender is NOT one of these builds.

But:

That is indeed a problem. Willbender is designed in a way that it is to hard for new players to understand what is going on and develop counter strategies.

Is willbender hard to understand? I've never seen that as a complaint. Seems easy to understand to me: they port on you from range, dump a load of damage, and then if they miss their burst they hop, skip and jump over the horizon.

The complexity of willbender isn't a complaint I've seen. In fact the main complaint I've seen is their ease of use for the results they can get. 

It's a very welcoming class for newer players as they have great access to mobility, utility, damage, and if it all goes wrong disengage.

That's the issue I have with willbender, it has too much of everything. This stems from It's bloated virtues, which when traited are even stronger, and then doubled by the elite.

To address willbender's imbalance it is the virtues that need to be looked at.

[Kirevey.5079]

1 hour ago, Nugatory.8920 said:

as they have great access to mobility, utility, damage, and if it all goes wrong disengage.

Tbf, every class out there has a at least one build that works like that, is just that willy is easier to play or more popular ?

I play a lot of WvW and see a lot of things that get never talked about:

* Mirages that have almos perma dodge + invuln + hop away with mimic + blink and the elite and can one shot you from stealth.

* Assassin Vindis that know how to run away, can dodge and can oneshot you, while also healing decently from a bunch of passives.

* (Almos) perma super speed engi + rocket boots + port (if running mech which is a meme) + rifle 5 that can one shot you, plus elixir plus passives that heal you.

* Cele harbingers that know how to use wurm + spectral walk.

* Cele cata sustain or the good fresh air eles than can spam super speed and actually outrun you while dropping a kitten ton of dmg on you.

* Perma block warriors with mobility skills (passive regen, heal on dmg, and they can cc u to death if they want to)

* Thieves in general. DE blind spam + blinks, regular thieves with many escapes, invuln on elite and high dmg form stealth, you regular pistol/pistol condi meme builds that just run if they can't kill you.

* Rangers in general now that they can run staff on any spec and just run away. Druids specially very annoying.

In that context, I also run into a lot of willys, but the ones that prolly annoys ppl the most are cele willys (they just annoying) or one shot willys (pure power, kill or be killed). I don't see that being as much different as what other classes can do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Misconceptions about willy that I feel ppl have: 

* Lots of blocks: other than crashing courage, most willys don't run more blocks. Sure, they can reset it with RF but I quote the skill:

Quote

Crashing Courage is a willbender virtue effect, a personal buff that they gain for 6 seconds upon using  Crashing Courage skill. For the duration of the effect, every 5 successful hits from weapon attacks or other abilities grant protective boons.

They need to hit you 5 times to trigger 1 aegis and 1 stab stack.

* Lots of stability: Again, they gain 3 stacks of stab for 3 seconds from trait Indomitable Courage. It also makes F3 a break stun. Other than that there is no more stab.

* Easy disengage: Other than f2, f1 and f3 can be interrupted btw. JI needs a target, and so does sword 2. Just blame anet for filling the bls with random pve mobs that are easy to target to escape using those. In contrast, most classes can perform the same level of disengage.

* Lots of healing: If you hit a Willy while they channeling reversal of fortune thats on you, you can wait 1 sec and they heal for nothing. Flowing resolve heals for 652 + 0.12*healing power and, if you trait with Phoenix Protocol to give alac, then you lose the heal. If they trait Conceited Curate to heal on willbender flame damage, the flame has to hit you, you can just side step it. 

Prolly more stuff out there, but here is the usual build you are gonna find for willys out there:

1. A usual power willy

S/S + GS Energy + hydro sigil on both weapons (maybe a stacking bloodlust)

Radiance: mid, bottom, bottom

Virtues: top, mid, bottom

Willy: mid, (bottom for sustain mid for dmg), (top for alac, mid for dmg)

 

2. A cele willy

Scepter/Torch + sword/sword, energy + condi on crit sigil

Radiance: mid, mid, top

virtues: top, mid, bottom

willy: bottom, bottom, top

 

I could go on and on on gameplay against willys, but is mainly dodging the first burst and peeling them like any other bunker build.

 

Edited January 18 by Kirevey.5079

[thechief.3609]

Willbender is unkillable!! 

https://youtu.be/5UF5AFhfo68?si=yoKox2nHd-wu7Uea

Edited January 21 by thechief.3609

[Uthrax.4975]

This was hilarious: During a tower fight, a large Guild sent in a lone WB into a wall-downed tower that had about 20+ PUG defending. The WB ran right in and about half of the defenders or more tried to stop him but couldn't even CC him let alone kill. While the defenders were distracted the Guild ran in, killed every living thing in sight, took the tower and proceeded to /laugh along with the unscathed WB. After watching this I decided it was time for some PvE lol.  🤣

[Kirevey.5079]

1 hour ago, Uthrax.4975 said:

This was hilarious: During a tower fight, a large Guild sent in a lone WB into a wall-downed tower that had about 20+ PUG defending. The WB ran right in and about half of the defenders or more tried to stop him but couldn't even CC him let alone kill. While the defenders were distracted the Guild ran in, killed every living thing in sight, took the tower and proceeded to /laugh along with the unscathed WB. After watching this I decided it was time for some PvE lol.  

This just speak very badly about the 20 players defending, which tbf, is very common on pugs these days. 

[RazieL.5684]

On 1/18/2024 at 5:06 AM, MercurialKuroSludge.8974 said:

We can probably add Vindi to that too.

Also to be fair to ele mains, havent seen a ROAMING Catalyst since late November, they all jut come as part of a zerg now, so ppl either got tired of it, or some nerfs pushed the Catalyst bandwagoners elsewhere. Currently what I see is that particular portion of players went to Stealth classes.
...Or Ive been so busy running defense on busy matchups that all Ive been fighting/scouting against have been boon balls, maybe?
Catalyst just seems to have less playerbase and is actually reasonably killable now.

ele got nerfed so many times in a row because of people crying it's pretty weak now... if you see the odd ele roamer it's usually someone that's been sticking to ele through thick and thin...

people getting farmed by eles are confused >>>

Edited January 23 by RazieL.5684

[Sleepwalker.1398]

7 hours ago, thechief.3609 said:

Willbender is unkillable!! 

https://youtu.be/5UF5AFhfo68?si=yoKox2nHd-wu7Uea

Looks like a guardian main trying to defend willbender.

80%+ vids on your channel are you playing willbender and kills 2 noob willbenders on a bladesworn and suddenly willbender is not OP.

[Palikka.8249]

14 hours ago, thechief.3609 said:

Willbender is unkillable!! 

https://youtu.be/5UF5AFhfo68?si=yoKox2nHd-wu7Uea

Chief dont count, too stronk 💪

[thechief.3609]

7 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

Looks like a guardian main trying to defend willbender.

80%+ vids on your channel are you playing willbender and kills 2 noob willbenders on a bladesworn and suddenly willbender is not OP.

Haha yup that's exactly correct. Tired of people crying about willbender being the most overpowered thing in wvw.  Managed to kill 2 back to back and no they were not noobs and even if they were why would that matter? Surely willbender so strong u can beat everything no matter ur skill? 

While I agree some things on willbender need addressed like the damage from off hand sword. I cerrtainly don't think the class is OP. People crying about mobility, so? Oh no I can't kill the willbender cos he ran away, so? U cant kill the thief, the ranger, or the engi either Where's the complaints about them? Willbender gets to many boon!! OK so does cata, ranger, engi.

People are just getting mad that their OP class isn't as OP as it was because will ender now exists let's just accept wvw isn't the place for balance and get over it.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, thechief.3609 said:

Haha yup that's exactly correct. Tired of people crying about willbender being the most overpowered thing in wvw.  Managed to kill 2 back to back and no they were not noobs and even if they were why would that matter? Surely willbender so strong u can beat everything no matter ur skill? 

While I agree some things on willbender need addressed like the damage from off hand sword. I cerrtainly don't think the class is OP. People crying about mobility, so? Oh no I can't kill the willbender cos he ran away, so? U cant kill the thief, the ranger, or the engi either Where's the complaints about them? Willbender gets to many boon!! OK so does cata, ranger, engi.

People are just getting mad that their OP class isn't as OP as it was because will ender now exists let's just accept wvw isn't the place for balance and get over it.

You should visit gw2 forums a bit more often and not only when the topic concerns your cheese. There were numerous topics on teefs bs alone(still not deleted bs stealth from game). There's a lot of garbage mechanics that needs to be fixed/nerfed/straight deleted that people didn't brought up on the forums yet because they haven't encountered enough of it in the wild. 
Sure, it may not be the most overpowered thing in wvw, but it does have too much mobility for that damage it deals.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

17 hours ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

This just speak very badly about the 20 players defending, which tbf, is very common on pugs these days. 

Back when burn guard was stronger, I used to run a defensive Burn DH build that dropped tons of AoE's from walls onto siege like rams and catas, and despite their being 15-20 people sometimes, half of them would just melt to burns because they tanked the damage and wouldn't cleanse, likely not paying attention. 

Pugs being clueless and dying to very dumb things is as old as it gets.