Legendary Relics are Coming Soon

[Ashen.2907]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The problem is in how they are choosing to try to get that engagement

This.

Choosing to degrade player progress in order to incentivize engagement withd new content rather than make content that players would want to engage with is a problem. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Games reuse assets a lot to save on cost and time, but this is a step different from that. This is removing what is already there and redesigning it in such a way that it can be sold in bite-sized packages over time. It's sort of like when a game chops up features before release, to sell it in DLC packages... except they're doing it in a live game, over 10 years in. Honestly, the more I try to make it absolutely clear the nature of it, the more I'm put off that they're even trying to do it. That someone greenlit this idea, knowing what they were doing. In some cases, what they were doing to people who have been such exuberant fans as to be with them for over 10 years. Imagine having that little respect for the people who play your game. I can't mind-read and claim they meant it as a disrespect and I'm sure they'd never want it to be viewed that way. But sometimes you have to just go by what an entity or individual is willing to do to you, intent aside, and decide whether you want to put up with it, i.e. whether you want to quit, complain to see if you can get a reversal of decision made, etc.

Looking at the overall "confused" resposes to posts that aling with what you just said, i guess Anet did it because they believe they can get away with it. Because some people will not notice, some will simply refuse to acknowledge reality, and some, out of some sort of misplaced sympathy for poor, overworked devs and their lot, against their own interest will even defend this kind of design.

I mean, why anyone would be willing to defend a gamedesign that aims to replace (potentially good) content with enforced gear grind is beyond my ability to comprehend, but it is clear that some people are willing to buy it. Of course,  whether they realize they, in fact, allow devs to give them less/poorer quality content is also something i have no idea of. And, honestly, i do not know which would be worse.

[Omega.6801]

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Looking at the overall "confused" resposes to posts that aling with what you just said, i guess Anet did it because they believe they can get away with it. Because some people will not notice, some will simply refuse to acknowledge reality, and some, out of some sort of misplaced sympathy for poor, overworked devs and their lot, against their own interest will even defend this kind of design.

I mean, why anyone would be willing to defend a gamedesign that aims to replace (potentially good) content with enforced gear grind is beyond my ability to comprehend, but it is clear that some people are willing to buy it. Of course,  whether they realize they, in fact, allow devs to give them less/poorer quality content is also something i have no idea of. And, honestly, i do not know which would be worse.

People also bought into "games as a service", "full price DLC", "day one DLC", "Lootboxes" and other industry shenanigans and will defend those just as vigorous. I mean people actually bought horse armor. It's sad to see how easy it is, to sell the illusion of "we are doing this to improve your experience, we are doing this for you, the customer. Because we care so deeply for you and for the quality of your time with us". They never do, it never is and they couldn't care less.
Why people fall for these things, well your guess is as good as mine and I'm sure there are even better guesses out there in the fields of marketing psychology. I'd assume it's some combination of "sunk cost fallacy"/"whiteknighting", "not my problem", "actually falling for the sell" and "not understanding the ramifications"/"drawing different conclusions".

[Jeydra.4386]

On 2/7/2024 at 8:18 PM, Kranlor Greyhelm.8417 said:

I'd respond to this the same way I did when my company decided to halve our redundancy terms, and told us not to worry because "they have no intention of making anyone redundant". My response was "if you aren't intending to make anyone redundant, why are you changing the terms? If you aren't going to use them, why even make this change?"

With this, I'd ask why ANET have suddenly decided to change the way that legendaries work. What harm would there be in leaving it so that legendary owners get their access immediately? What are they planning to do which would make this change necessary?

There is a pragmatic reason for the relic change. Currently there are several achievements tied to unlocking relics (e.g.: Relics - Secrets of the Obscure 1). If legendaries provided immediate access to all relic effects past and present and future, how would these achievements work? Do you instantly unlock all of them? That would also break new ground, since it trivializes the effort that some might already have invested into those achievements.

Which doesn't mean that the new legendary relics are justified. If you ask me, ANet made the bed, now they have to lie in it. But reasonable people might disagree with me.

[idpersona.3810]

4 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

Do you instantly unlock all of them? That would also break new ground, since it trivializes the effort that some might already have invested into those achievements.

No. Having access to a particular relic doesn't (or wouldn't) unlock the achievement. There's no reason it would. The relic is the reward, not the achievement condition.

Like, if you unlock a gear item through WvW from one of the LW map tracks, it doesn't award you all of the associated/required achievements to unlock said item through the achievements panel. That's never been how any of this game works.

[Labjax.2465]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Looking at the overall "confused" resposes to posts that aling with what you just said, i guess Anet did it because they believe they can get away with it. Because some people will not notice, some will simply refuse to acknowledge reality, and some, out of some sort of misplaced sympathy for poor, overworked devs and their lot, against their own interest will even defend this kind of design.

I mean, why anyone would be willing to defend a gamedesign that aims to replace (potentially good) content with enforced gear grind is beyond my ability to comprehend, but it is clear that some people are willing to buy it. Of course,  whether they realize they, in fact, allow devs to give them less/poorer quality content is also something i have no idea of. And, honestly, i do not know which would be worse.

They can react that way if they'd like to, but ultimately, it seems to me that Anet is setting themself up for word-of-mouth damage, which is not something some forum likes or dislikes can stop the narrative on. I can just imagine a veteran player trying to explain to a newer player that "this is how legendaries work, but also, relics can be legendary, but aren't really" and then the newer player goes "huh? why?" and gets an earful about how Anet removed the perfectly functional rune bonuses and kinda sorta replaced them with relics and left people wondering what was going to happen in terms of legendary equivalent and so on and then eventually said they'd be compensated but with something that isn't quite a real legendary. The most generous description of events would be confusing to explain all on its own and make it look like Anet did not think ahead on what they were doing. Short of someone lying or changing the subject, I don't see how this change is going to be swept under the rug in terms of the game's reputation.

The way I see it, the only way for them to salvage the situation in terms of reputation and word of mouth is to make the compensation legendary relic fully legendary and if there are any missing quirky rune bonus effects still, return them through that legendary's options. Maybe apologize in the process, too, for causing so much plain confusion. And then do what past Anet teams did for over 10 years and get people to engage with content through means that don't damage existing features and undermine player progression. I keep going back to, in my head, that a big problem here is a usability one. The difference with other kinds of questionable decisions studios have gotten away with in the past is that they are generally greedy, but relatively easy to understand. This is fundamentally confusing on a design/feature level, so it's hard to see how even a designer can stand by it. So in that way, I support confused reactions. They are what fits this situation. 😉

[Omega.6801]

37 minutes ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

There is a pragmatic reason for the relic change. Currently there are several achievements tied to unlocking relics (e.g.: Relics - Secrets of the Obscure 1). If legendaries provided immediate access to all relic effects past and present and future, how would these achievements work? Do you instantly unlock all of them? That would also break new ground, since it trivializes the effort that some might already have invested into those achievements.

Which doesn't mean that the new legendary relics are justified. If you ask me, ANet made the bed, now they have to lie in it. But reasonable people might disagree with me.

Not really. If the legendary relic had everything unlocked like a regular legendary. The achievements would still incentivize people who don't go for the legendary, people who don't have it yet and people who just generally go for achievements(AP).
On the other hand, having the relics unlocked on your legendary would probably not count towards having completed the achievements. That's just not how achievements work. Achievements follow the formula "is requirement met?"-->Y/N-->"If [Y] then get reward." not the other way around. In cases, where people got rewards without completing the according requirement, through bugs f.e., it usually took ANet a hotfix or two to set things straight.

[Jeydra.4386]

I don't mean to say you can't come up with something, you surely can, but rather that it will not be ideal no matter what you do (i.e. some people will complain regardless).

[Minna.7895]

8 hours ago, Jeydra.4386 said:

I don't mean to say you can't come up with something, you surely can, but rather that it will not be ideal no matter what you do (i.e. some people will complain regardless).

Actually the easiest and most fair way for everyone would have been for Anet to not "come up" with something completely new - if they want to remove 6th runebonus and change them to relics to make them not bound to runestats anymore they could have just done that. What I mean in detail: they could have removed it and made it into a relic and if you have 6 legendary runes unlocked in the past, present or future that also unlocks a legendary relic (and I mean a true legendary relic not some conditional dogpoo thingy they call the same but isn't). This way they wouldn't even have to implement a new recipe for one etc., it would have always been 6 legy runes give you this. They could have just done what they wrote in the very first announcement without all the additional hassle- just make the (former 6th rune) bonus freely chooseable outside of equipped runes to have more options in combinations.

[Gehenna.3625]

I feel like soon is going to be another case of the NcSoon™.

[Omega.6801]

5 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I feel like soon is going to be another case of the NcSoon™.

For once a vague and meaningles PR-soon™ is not the issue. We probably know "when", in about 17 days if we can go by the WV special countdown like last time.
The issue mostly is a "how" or a "what".

[Gehenna.3625]

15 hours ago, Omega.6801 said:

For once a vague and meaningles PR-soon™ is not the issue. We probably know "when", in about 17 days if we can go by the WV special countdown like last time.
The issue mostly is a "how" or a "what".

Oh, what's this WV special countdown you speak of? It feels like something I should be aware of.

And for the record, I don't have these issues that people describe here. I'm fine with how it's going to work, I just want them to come out.

[philvaneyck.1932]

When does new patch drop????? Waiting so long for all the things they announced last year.

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, philvaneyck.1932 said:

When does new patch drop????? Waiting so long for all the things they announced last year.

No date confirmed, but the special tab in the wizards vault has a timer leading to end of the month, so prob the 27th Feb

[Omega.6801]

3 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Oh, what's this WV special countdown you speak of? It feels like something I should be aware of.

And for the record, I don't have these issues that people describe here. I'm fine with how it's going to work, I just want them to come out.

 

Just now, Randulf.7614 said:

No date confirmed, but the special tab in the wizards vault has a timer leading to end of the month, so prob the 27th Feb

Basically this^^
Last time was pretty accurate, i.e. the patch dropped the same time the special category was updated.

[Randulf.7614]

3 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Oh, what's this WV special countdown you speak of? It feels like something I should be aware of.

And for the record, I don't have these issues that people describe here. I'm fine with how it's going to work, I just want them to come out.

If you go to the Wizard's Vault special tab, the tasks expire on a timer that is listed there. Last time that timer end date coincided with Update One

[Taclism.2406]

Changing the definition of how legendary items works is an even worse news than the (lack of) compensation for 7 runes. 
Now I'm willing to bet they're considering the same changes to armor & weapons for next expansion.

[Ashantara.8731]

5 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Now I'm willing to bet they're considering the same changes to armor & weapons for next expansion.

Don't give them any ideas! 😱😄

[Omega.6801]

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Don't give them any ideas! 😱😄

It's just the natural decline of things. I doubt ANet needs us for these ideas so with the next expansion I am preparing myself for:
"In order to keep things exciting and the gearing process fascinating we have decided to move 20% of your armor stats from your armor to a newly created category called belts. With this change we will chane how legendary armor works to be more in line with legendary relics and the new introduced legendary belt. We hope to improve blah blah PR-speak blah your experience blah you are important blah buy our stuff blah."
I hope ANet proves me wrong, I really do because I thought these practices were beyond this fine company but SotO made me reconsider hard and now I am not sure what exactly still is "beyond them". I wish I knew where the slippery slope ended.

[Linken.6345]

40 minutes ago, Omega.6801 said:

Snip

I wish I knew where the slippery slope ended.

It never ends.

[Ashantara.8731]

I wouldn't mind any changes, as long as ...

• the quality and quantity of content improves and becomes comparable to former expansions and LW episodes.
• we never ever get stupid grind content like Rift Hunts and Convergences again.
• the game finally becomes fun to play, diverse and challenging again.

Edited February 12 by Ashantara.8731

[Mistwraithe.3106]

For those people complaining, what would you do to provide goals for veteran players?

Creating relics seems like a pretty sensible move to me. The old system with the 6th Rune containing the special bonus was significantly more limited in how easily they could add new special bonuses because unless the stats for the first 5 runes are exactly right for a build people aren't going to use that rune set. Separating the special bonus out into relics objectively gives them a lot more flexibility to provide new special bonuses which will actually be used by players. So the change tidied up how it worked, added build flexibility and gave Anet something they could expand upon in future expansion. It's a solid change, I run a software team (not games) and I think if I was in their position I would have gone for it.

A lot of the complaints in this forum seem to be short sighted or even contradictory. "I'm 10k hours in and bored cause I have done everything, give me more things to do and new goals, but don't actually add anything new for me to aim for because horizontal progression prohibits that, also if you do add anything I need everything unlocked and available without playing any of the game.". How does anyone develop a game for people who have reached that mindset?

[Omega.6801]

13 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

It never ends.

I guess that's why it's called a slope and not a staircase. 😉
For me it will end at one point...

7 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I wouldn't mind any changes, as long as ...

• the quality and quantity of content improves and becomes comparable to former expansions and LW episodes.
• we never ever get stupid grind content like Rift Hunts and Convergences again.
• the game finally becomes fun to play and challenging again.

...especially when the above design of low quality, grind and boredom paired with the downright betrayal of decade old design philosophies continues.
I'm not against change. Mounts were great. Gliding and all that was awesome. Elites usually were change for the better as well. I'm still looking forward to alliances, another positive change imho. Strikes and CMs were also a good step forward. Change can be good, if done right. But this, the introduction of relics devaluing BiS legendary runes and now changing how legendary gear will work. No. This is not positive change for the better. This is artificial grind. This is not having trust in your content standing on its own. It's unnecessary and it adds nothing to the game but frustration.

[Omega.6801]

1 minute ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

For those people complaining, what would you do to provide goals for veteran players?

Creating relics seems like a pretty sensible move to me. The old system with the 6th Rune containing the special bonus was significantly more limited in how easily they could add new special bonuses because unless the stats for the first 5 runes are exactly right for a build people aren't going to use that rune set. Separating the special bonus out into relics objectively gives them a lot more flexibility to provide new special bonuses which will actually be used by players. So the change tidied up how it worked, added build flexibility and gave Anet something they could expand upon in future expansion. It's a solid change, I run a software team (not games) and I think if I was in their position I would have gone for it.

A lot of the complaints in this forum seem to be short sighted or even contradictory. "I'm 10k hours in and bored cause I have done everything, give me more things to do and new goals, but don't actually add anything new for me to aim for because horizontal progression prohibits that, also if you do add anything I need everything unlocked and available without playing any of the game.". How does anyone develop a game for people who have reached that mindset?

People go for Achievements, Titles, Skins, Infusions, Gold or make their own goals. Also some people play for fun, crazy, I know.
Legendaris serve as mid to long term goals, depending on dedication I'd say. And while yes, ultimately they do make all other gear obsolete. That can take a while and it's also just the way ANet has started. This thread it's mostly complaints about them changing that asspect of "legendaryness". Not so much the existence of relics as such.
The addition relics was imho not necessary. It may be a bit tidier now. But I'm not sure if what can be done now, couldn't just be done with the old system. I mean sure, they "tidied things up" by removing many effects that still didn't return. Many redundancies still remain. It's not like the meta is more diverse now. So it stands to discussion if the change was really that big. And if it wasn't that big, how necessary was it to devalue BiS gear and by doing so basically breaking a decade old promis to customers.

[Astralporing.1957]

34 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I wouldn't mind any changes, as long as ...

• the quality and quantity of content improves and becomes comparable to former expansions and LW episodes.
• we never ever get stupid grind content like Rift Hunts and Convergences again.
• the game finally becomes fun to play, diverse and challenging again.

Problem is, all those changes they're pushing are because they are apparently either not willing or no longer able to provide those things you want. And, unfortunately, every turn of that downward spiral will push us further down, and make them even less willing/able to try to pull us back up again.