Would "intelligent" mobs counter power creep?

[ShadowKatt.6740]

This has been a fascinating read, actually, both the for and against people And ther's a lot of people I would love to respond to directly, too many in fact, more than I'm wiling to put in the effort for, so I'll just say that I'm absolutely on the For side of this arguement, especially being a veteran from Guild Wars 1 where enemies were more intelligent, but I do think there's something that I either didn't see or missed as I read through this.

Enemies in Guild Wars 1 were very smart for their time, and didn't have a lot of AI coding to their name. And I know this because I work with programming and I can recognize the way the NPCs moved during combat. Their range was actually VERY small. Close to attack range, move out of AOE circles, things like that. NPCs were not able to really position themselves. They couldn't really coordinate if a necromancer put down a well, and they never flee. They were actually really dumb. So what made them so smart?

GW1 was unique in that the players got NOTHING special. If you were a warrior and you met a warrior mob out in the map, it had the same skills you did. Not exactly the same, of course, you have the freedom to build your way, but if you have a sword, and it has a sword, your skills will have a lot of overlap. That means that everything you're throwing at them they can throw right back at you. Now with two dueling warriors that looks like a lot of hacking, slashing, and stabbing, but throw a few other professions in the mix. Add a couple mesmers and suddenly there are interupts, Degens, controls, and again everything you can do they can do back to you. Throw in some monks. Now you've got a healer at your back. So do they. ANd you both have the same heals. That made Guild Wars 1 unique among all MMOs. Gear did not matter. Skills did not matter. You all have the same gear. You all have the same skills. So what does matter? Skill. Skill every day of the week and twice on Sunday. You have to be able to play better than the NPCs. You have no direct edge over them other than the fact that your brain is bigger than their programming.....usually. Even then, because the computer can always interupt faster than a human, the computer had edges on humans.

Now we're in Guild Wars 2. We all have a variety of weapons with 5 weapon skills. We have a variety of utility skills that the enemies we face don't have. Things are actually WILDLY skewed in our favor because of that because we have abilities that the NPCs in the world have literally no counter for. They can do nothing to stop us, literally. They don't have the skills.

BUT, it doesn't have to be like this. In Guild Wars 1 there were animals and monsters, and they had a collection of monster skills. But there were also a lot of mobs that had actual skills. Skales tended to be elementalists. Breeze Riders were mesmers. Zombies were Touch Necromancers. And thus things were move even. All we really need to do is, well, that. If you make an NPC with a sword, it should have the same sword skills we have. So if it's a soldier type NPC with a sword it should have Sever Artery, Savage Leap, and FInal Thrust. And just like that you've made it more on par with the players. It can inflict bleeding, it can chase down retreating players, and if you're below 50% health, that Final Thrust is gonna hurt like a B. This does not require ANY kind of advanced AI. A few lines of code and a little bit of rebuilding for the NPCs, and just like that you have a more interesting game. Now instead of having them in homogenious groups, make them mixed groups. A couple warriours, a guardian, ranger, and necro in a group and watch how players try to handle that. It worked before, it could and would work now.

But, that would take work and we all know how Anet feels about work. But that's how you do it anyway. And if Anet wants someone to do it, my rates are competetive.

[Gehenna.3625]

53 minutes ago, frazazel.7501 said:

You would include the boons that they generate in that monster's power budget. If a monster can provide itself with 10 stacks of might with 50% uptime, that's 300 power and 300 condition damage, half the time. Reduce their base stats by 150 power and condition damage. They now are more interesting to fight against (they have burst phases), they do overall the same damage, and boon stripping players can actually get an advantage by stripping their boons.

Well, it sounds like it would be a good idea but there are issues with this:

• Those who don't have boon removal skills might encounter + 150 power net for the duration of the fight because regular mobs don't take that long to kill and may end up killing players more easily this way. So it would be for champions or above realistically but then these burst phases you speak of will generally kill casual players to begin with
• People who play classes with boon removal aren't necessarily aware that they can do this a lot of the time or how to use this effectively and might end up in the situation described above
• And it would take a whole lot of rebalancing of mobs all over the place, which is a ton of work for Anet, so even from that pov it's not likely to happen

I already said that the combat system is at fault for this because balancing content around it is just not possible due to the huge gap between unskilled and skilled players. OW and story content have to take into account the majority of players and the majority of players don't seem much invested in the combat system and making it work. Now you can blame this on them instead of the combat system but without them there's no GW2

Your idea would work IF the vast majority of the player base would have a decent/good understanding of the classes they play. The reality is apparently that that's not the case.

 

[frazazel.7501]

10 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, it sounds like it would be a good idea but there are issues with this:

• Those who don't have boon removal skills might encounter + 150 power net for the duration of the fight because regular mobs don't take that long to kill and may end up killing players more easily this way. So it would be for champions or above realistically but then these burst phases you speak of will generally kill casual players to begin with
• People who play classes with boon removal aren't necessarily aware that they can do this a lot of the time or how to use this effectively and might end up in the situation described above
• And it would take a whole lot of rebalancing of mobs all over the place, which is a ton of work for Anet, so even from that pov it's not likely to happen

I already said that the combat system is at fault for this because balancing content around it is just not possible due to the huge gap between unskilled and skilled players. OW and story content have to take into account the majority of players and the majority of players don't seem much invested in the combat system and making it work. Now you can blame this on them instead of the combat system but without them there's no GW2

Your idea would work IF the vast majority of the player base would have a decent/good understanding of the classes they play. The reality is apparently that that's not the case.

Players don't learn to play their characters because the game doesn't require them to learn how to play it. And then we can't put in challenges that can teach players how to play their characters? This suggestion is a way for the game to encourage players to learn the game by giving them more varied challenges. The game could maybe do a bit more to encourage players to make use of boon-strip abilities (e.g. the ubiquitous hints for the flying kryptis monsters who you can't hit with your fireballs unless you dash through them first), but they need to actually present situations where players should use these abilities.

[kharmin.7683]

Just put boon stripping in the skill tooltip like they did for the breakbar damage?

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

If you make an NPC with a sword, it should have the same sword skills we have. So if it's a soldier type NPC with a sword it should have Sever Artery, Savage Leap, and FInal Thrust. (...)

Now instead of having them in homogenious groups, make them mixed groups.

That's semi-close to what we see with the various White Mantle NPC's, is that what you're getting at?

[frazazel.7501]

And LWS1 had some monsters that went into downstate like players do, which also leans into the same idea of monsters being like simplified player characters.

[kiroho.4738]

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Considering that very few classes/elite specs have access to either boon corruption/ripping, I would be against this. I mean it's nice for the few who do but it would be a terrible idea for the other 6 professions. And I think that warrior only has access to boon ripping on one elite spec.

Why whould it be "horrible"?
For those classes/specs without boon strip the enemy would just be a bit stronger. Even if you gave open world mobs 25 might, quickness and protection they won't be "horrible" to fight against. Just a little bit harder.
Trash mobs would still be trash mobs in the end. And stronger mobs such as champions and legendary ones usually are not fought alone.

But classes/specs with boon strip on the other hand would get actual useful skills.

Making several skills/traits useful vs. having to hit a mob with one or two more hits to kill it.
I think that's not horrible at all.

[Zebulous.2934]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Meaning, for any more organized group it would actually end up being a nerf to said mob?

Perhaps a nerf to that particular mob.  I would still expect it to be grouped with other mobs, each budgeted around different abilities.

An organized group is always going to outshine a solo player. 

I wonder how common two player teams are?

  In any case; a solo player does need to be able to defeat an enemy group, preferably before the map begins to respawn that group of mobs.

 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

13 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

That's semi-close to what we see with the various White Mantle NPC's, is that what you're getting at?

Actually I'd forgotten about them, but yeah. And now that you've reminded me....I really hate those bastards. Partially because they do everything I do....and partially because they do it better.

Why can't -I- get a triple Mind Stab?

[Zebulous.2934]

Some mobs could grant themselves functionally unless boons.  Like a mob that begins the battle with a weak version of regeneration.  It would be something to corrupt, but easily out-damaged if the player didn't have boon stripping.

[kharmin.7683]

21 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

 

I wonder how common two player teams are?

 

 

I'd say that a significantly large portion of my OW playing time is with one other friend.

[Ashantara.8731]

I have the perfect solution to Power Creep: revert it and reduce player characters' overall damage! 👍

[frazazel.7501]

2 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I have the perfect solution to Power Creep: revert it and reduce player characters' overall damage! 👍

Great solution! We'll roll it out in batches to see how it goes. You're in the first wave.

[Ashantara.8731]

3 minutes ago, frazazel.7501 said:

Great solution! We'll roll it out in batches to see how it goes. You're in the first wave.

😉

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

this game is a bit strange in that pve is supposedly its focus point and yet it makes most single player games look like dark souls in comparison. its the only game i know of where line of sight tactics (and other general tactics against ai) aren't even understood by the majority of the playerbase.

 

i feel like arenanet really missed the mark with the difficulty, when you can mow down enemies in queensdale with your autoattatck while still leveling. i think outside of instanced content, the majority of your skill bar doesn't even have realistic use cases, either.

 

the enemies did originally have a more advanced behavior, but i recall it being removed pretty early on for server performance reasons.

Edited February 2 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Barraind.7324]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:22 AM, Nylarx.9671 said:

I am currently playing GW1 (just to get achievements in GW2). The mobs there are intelligent - they will instantly interrupt you if you start casting a spell, move out of AOE, will heal up constantly and will even revive their allies if they have those skills available.

After playing for a week or so the only thing I can say is that fighting intelligent mobs is miserable and disheartening. 

Why, hello there, pull with 8 shiverpeaks menders.

I'm going to enjoy being able to kill 1 of you every very short window of time following spike Surges + landing every mesmer condition that can interrupt you and your friends for the 2 seconds it will stick

[Teknomancer.4895]

36 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

the enemies did originally have a more advanced behavior, but i recall it being removed pretty early on for server performance reasons.

Orr was definitely a much more hazardous place at first, as was Maguuma.

IIRC both got nerfed due to a combination of performance issues and player complaints.

[Teknomancer.4895]

20 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Why can't -I- get a triple Mind Stab?

I'm sure the Unseen Ones will be happy to accommodate your request, once you figure out a way to give yourself over to them. 😆

[Futa.4375]

They don't want anything "intelligent" left in this game 😄

[Padrion.7382]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:22 AM, Nylarx.9671 said:

I am currently playing GW1 (just to get achievements in GW2). The mobs there are intelligent - they will instantly interrupt you if you start casting a spell, move out of AOE, will heal up constantly and will even revive their allies if they have those skills available.

After playing for a week or so the only thing I can say is that fighting intelligent mobs is miserable and disheartening. 

 

Guild Wars 1 PvE was mostly group vs. group battles. Outside the tutorial area you weren't running around alone but with your henchmen (or other players) so this is not really a fair comparison. I wouldn't mind if mobs in GW 2 used a little more of the existing mechanics that I could interact with. For a geared player they are barely a nuisance. Mow them down, cleanse any remaining conditions, repeat. So far only in HoT I had to care who or what I was actually fighting. Or if I do 5 man content alone. But that is another story...

[ShadowKatt.6740]

54 minutes ago, Padrion.7382 said:

 

Guild Wars 1 PvE was mostly group vs. group battles. Outside the tutorial area you weren't running around alone but with your henchmen (or other players) so this is not really a fair comparison. I wouldn't mind if mobs in GW 2 used a little more of the existing mechanics that I could interact with. For a geared player they are barely a nuisance. Mow them down, cleanse any remaining conditions, repeat. So far only in HoT I had to care who or what I was actually fighting. Or if I do 5 man content alone. But that is another story...

Eh....kinda. By in large I think you're right, but as you get further into GW2 you are expected and often forced to fight mutliple enemies at one time. Whether that's an entire swarm of pocket raptors, a strike team of forged, a contingent of frost legion or the mindless armies of void or kryptis, you are expected to be able to handle yourself against multiple adversaries. Of course, we have lots and lots of AOEs and powerful spikes to handle that. And maybe making better, slightly smarter enemies would make that a bit unmanagable. I'm actually okay with that though. I remember HoT when it first came out. I remember the wandering champion mordem and their entourage that would annihilate you without a second glance, and I'm actually okay with that. GW2 is a mostly solo experience, but I have NEVER had a problem teaming up with other players to take something down. And by the by, I've never said a word. SOmetimes someone else is waiting and watching some big mother so you land next to them. You both inch forward and understand you both want the same target and you jump. Or you're traveling and someone is holding their own against a big monster so you help them. Never a word said, nothing needing to be said. You just do. It's one of the highest praises I have for this game is the community, and I think that raising the difficulty just that small amount not only would the community rise to meet it, but it'd be better for it.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

21 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Just put boon stripping in the skill tooltip like they did for the breakbar damage?

And you believe that players will even read those tooltips?

[voltaicbore.8012]

Short answer to the OP: no, I don't think it would effectively counter power creep. As others noted, I think it will make encounters too hard for low skill players, and offer nothing other than an annoying delay of the inevitable for skilled players.

I think the easiest solution to offer players some semblance of I-need-to-maybe-think-for-a-sec challenge is the teams of mobs a number of people have already noted. While HoT may have introduced some of the more devastating mixed teams of mobs into OW, Anet was doing teams of mobs in dungeons long before that. Even the humble Ascalonian Catacombs in story mode has some surprisingly effective mixed teams. There's 3 elites in one hallway that if you're not careful and are running a glass build without really knowing what you're doing, can cc then dogpile you pretty easily. There's another team of 15 normal mobs along with a boss - these normal mobs of course die when you touch them on a glass build, but there's enough of them (and they spawn in waves) and suddenly your 6 stacks of stab is instantly gone (or your measly pulsing stack of 1-2 stab) all while you're getting loaded up with condi and some power hits.

The mobs individually in these groups seem to follow a fairly set pattern, but their ability to really ruin your day when they work as a team forces you to do something - bring a bubble, full counter, more than 1 stunbreak, LoS, etc. Once you do that something, the fight becomes super easy. But you still have to do something other than blindly faceroll if you're soloing this stuff.

[Gehenna.3625]

On 2/2/2024 at 7:00 PM, frazazel.7501 said:

Players don't learn to play their characters because the game doesn't require them to learn how to play it. And then we can't put in challenges that can teach players how to play their characters? This suggestion is a way for the game to encourage players to learn the game by giving them more varied challenges. The game could maybe do a bit more to encourage players to make use of boon-strip abilities (e.g. the ubiquitous hints for the flying kryptis monsters who you can't hit with your fireballs unless you dash through them first), but they need to actually present situations where players should use these abilities.

Incorrect, the game doesn't require it because a lot of players don't WANT to learn. Look at EoD and the meta in Dragon's End. It got nerfed a couple of times and the thing that dropped for the turtle mount was made available in another, easier way. 

Also one of the hearts in seitung province tried to teach people to do some things like combos...people still don't use them. A lot of people just want to relax and bum around in the GW2 world and that's their prerogative. They're not interested in flashy fast-paced combat with all sorts of intricacies like boons, combos, etc. People still don't dodge out of damage circles.

And when Anet tries to force people to be a bit better, like with that meta, the forums here are filled with complaints. Sorry, but you're wrong. Anet has tried and failed many times. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

14 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Incorrect, the game doesn't require it because a lot of players don't WANT to learn. Look at EoD and the meta in Dragon's End. It got nerfed a couple of times and the thing that dropped for the turtle mount was made available in another, easier way. 

Also one of the hearts in seitung province tried to teach people to do some things like combos...people still don't use them. A lot of people just want to relax and bum around in the GW2 world and that's their prerogative. They're not interested in flashy fast-paced combat with all sorts of intricacies like boons, combos, etc. People still don't dodge out of damage circles.

And when Anet tries to force people to be a bit better, like with that meta, the forums here are filled with complaints. Sorry, but you're wrong. Anet has tried and failed many times. 

i think there's been many insanely popular games that counter this line of thinking, especially in the fps and rts genres.

 

i feel like if this was really true then those games wouldn't sell millions of copies, when their matchups can be as difficult as something like the soo-won meta. it seems to me like being a casual player (which means not having alot of time to play) gets confused with sheer laziness alot. the game attracts players who don't want to do anything simply because the game design has made it viable to do nothing, in the bulk of the content available.

 

if you tried to do that in almost any other game, you would probably be dead in the first five minutes of gameplay.

 

this game was actually much harder at release, with far less powercreep and a significantly more advanced ai and mob density, and again in heart of thorns. while there were some player complaints, the best known reason we have for it being changed is server performance.

Edited February 3 by SoftFootpaws.9134