ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[Ohoni.6057]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:This whole thing is ridiculous because there is still a WvW dev team and a PvP dev team, and I would never have expected them to be the same size as the PvE dev team as they don't require the same amount of resources...so nothing has really changed in that respect.

That's not really the point of this thread.

There

is

no point to this thread.

If that's your belief then nobody is forcing you to participate in it.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

How about Friendly PVE VS Elitist PVE, that's the subdivision I use.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

You seem to be missing the point: the "pilars" aren't technical terms that have exact definitions. They are descriptive concepts that are used to outline goals, not prescriptions for specific road maps. The distinctions are blurred at best and ANet realizes that a good game needs to be flexible. They never give us a "firm idea" of what they are working on, because things can change (and usually do).

So please, find a way to ask your question without worrying about the jargon.

I did, it was the OP to this thread. That was my question.

If all you want to know is how ANet is using jargon this week, you won't get an answer that you will find satisfactory. The terms are intended to be vague, so that they can stretch as needed for the circumstances.

What is it you really want to ask that you feel depends on knowing how ANet defines PvE?

"I think that the devs need to get real with us, and perhaps with themselves, and lay out where the actual players spend the majority of their time in game, and move away from the "three pillars" model. Don't "ghost" the community by just pretending that nothing's changed since the launch ideals, be straight about where things stand."

You write well enough that I hope in the future, you might consider changing up your rhetorical technique to get what you really want:

• Avoid burying the lead: make it easy for the devs to answer.
• Avoid jargon: don't let your own thread be distracted by arguments about definitions (especially when no one agrees on the terms)
• Avoid the hype and anti-hype phrasing
• Being respectful of your intended audience: ANet doesn't need to do anything; they don't "work" for us. They are game makers and all they really owe is their best efforts at making a game lots of us will enjoy.

PS they haven't pretended for a moment that things haven't changed since launch. They have said as much, and sometimes even apologized for changing direction. And sometimes, they've pointed out we've interpreted "guidelines" as "rules," when they were never intended to be anything more than best intentions.

[Ardid.7203]

@STIHL.2489 said:You have 4 game modes at this point.

Team Based PvE (Fractals, Dungeons, Raids)Open World PvE (PS, LW, Open Maps)Team Based PvP (sPvP)Open World PvP (WvW)

Language reflect reality, but it also creates reality. Whenever there is a gap between what it is and what is said, problems arise stronger and are harder to solve.IMO it IS relevant to acknowledge that our jargon taxonomy (pve, wvw, pvp) has become outdated. What STIHL proposes is way more accurate and useful for everyone.

[Razor.6392]

I guess OP wants to get legendary armors from killing Tequatls, doing dailies and map wide meta events. Not how it works my dude.

It's not easy to get legendary armors in any 'pillar'. If you think raids are impossible then pvp should simply be out of the question. It's fine though because none of us really NEED legendary armors.

[Dashiva.6149]

@Ardid.7203 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You have 4 game modes at this point.

Team Based PvE (Fractals, Dungeons, Raids)Open World PvE (PS, LW, Open Maps)Team Based PvP (sPvP)Open World PvP (WvW)

Language reflect reality, but it also creates reality. Whenever there is a gap between what it is and what is said, problems arise stronger and are harder to solve.IMO it IS relevant to acknowledge that our jargon taxonomy (pve, wvw, pvp) has become outdated. What STIHL proposes is way more accurate and useful for everyone.

Minor nitpick on my part maybe but Open World PvP might be slightly inaccurate as WvW has it's own dedicated maps and doesn't take place in Tyria (what people generally refer to when talking Open World). Other than that, I agree that this is the most accurate and fair division among the gamemodes so far.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:PS they haven't pretended for a moment that things haven't changed since launch. They have said as much, and sometimes even apologized for changing direction. And sometimes, they've pointed out we've interpreted "guidelines" as "rules," when they were never intended to be anything more than best intentions.

Then it shouldn't be difficult for them to make a sort of "state of the game" post that would bring all that information together where ti can be reliably referenced. Too much "common wisdom" is lost in old forum posts and AMA answers rather than in easily accessible sources.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Is that a point you would argue against? And if so, would the developers telling you that you're wrong cause you to re-evaluate your position on that?

[Draco.9480]

PvE = Player versus Environment which is the definition of player versus AI. it has nothing to do with "open" world or instanced content. and the world isn't even open world. WoW has open world, gw2 has just maps with entrances. That awkward moment when a troll tries to define something to his opinion.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Is that a point you would argue against? And if so, would the developers telling you that you're wrong cause you to re-evaluate your position on that?

They won't tell me that. Open world maps are PvE. And even if they introduce legendary armor to open world maps it won't have the envoy skins. Those will stay in the raid.

[Tails.9372]

@Razor.6392 said:I guess OP wants to get legendary armors from killing Tequatls, doing dailies and map wide meta events. Not how it works my dude.That's exactly how it works for WvW tho, with the difference that the required tasks you have to complete for the legendary WvW armor set are on the same level as the stuff in the level 1-15 starting areas.

@Draco.9480 said:PvE = Player versus Environment which is the definition of player versus AI.Nope, it's the definition of everything "not PvP" which makes it too vague to be a useful term to use.

[Umut.5471]

@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute thishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

Then WvW = sPvP with your logic. In Gw2 things don't work like that.Instanced, strictly structured PvE doesn't equal open world PvE. Most people hate elitism in raids sothey don't want to join. There's no such elitism and class shaming in other aspects of the game.Raid community made people hate raids.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Razor.6392 said:I guess OP wants to get legendary armors from killing Tequatls, doing dailies and map wide meta events. Not how it works my dude.That's exactly how it works for WvW tho, with the difference that the required tasks you have to complete for the legendary WvW armor set are on the same level as the stuff in the level 1-15 starding areas.

@Draco.9480 said:PvE = Player versus Environment which is the definition of player versus AI.Nope, it's the definition of everything "not PvP" which makes it too vague to be a useful term to use.

PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.

[Tails.9372]

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

[TexZero.7910]

@Umut.5471 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming

)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

Then WvW = sPvP with your logic. In Gw2 things don't work like that.Instanced, strictly structured PvE doesn't equal open world PvE. Most people hate elitism in raids sothey don't want to join. There's no such elitism and class shaming in other aspects of the game.Raid community made people hate raids.

you guys really don't like reading....I've already addressed the WvW comparison.

Here let me just do this once more and only once more

WvW is a hybrid gamemode that has both PvP and PvE but a completely different objective and scale than PvP. It's based on RvR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm) which unlike PvP isn't random and the PvP aspects aren't enforced and people can opt-in to that as easily as they opt out and strictly play the PvE/tower siege/camp flip/yak escort game.

[Ohoni.6057]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Umut.5471 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:Hello ???

Fractals, Dungeons, Raids they're all PvE and any attempt to say otherwise is silly. You are fighting mobs that are not players that's literally the definition of PvE.If for some reason you still wish to dispute this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(gaming

)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_environment

Then WvW = sPvP with your logic. In Gw2 things don't work like that.Instanced, strictly structured PvE doesn't equal open world PvE. Most people hate elitism in raids sothey don't want to join. There's no such elitism and class shaming in other aspects of the game.Raid community made people hate raids.

you guys really don't like reading....I've already addressed the WvW comparison.

Here let me just do this once more and only once more

WvW is a hybrid gamemode that has both PvP and PvE but a completely different objective and scale than PvP. It's based on RvR (

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm

) which unlike PvP isn't random and the PvP aspects aren't enforced and people can opt-in to that as easily as they opt out and strictly play the PvE/tower siege/camp flip/yak escort game.

sPvP also has player verses environment elements to it on most maps. WvW:sPvP as OpenPvE:Raiding.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Razor.6392 said:I guess OP wants to get legendary armors from killing Tequatls, doing dailies and map wide meta events. Not how it works my dude.

It's not easy to get legendary armors in any 'pillar'. If you think raids are impossible then pvp should simply be out of the question.WvW is actually a straight out pure grind, no skill whatsoever necessary. Not sure why you think that PvE version could have been easier.

[STIHL.2489]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

[Ashen.2907]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:PvE is a perfectly fine term. Only because you don't like all parts of PvE doesn't make it less useful. Most people dislike some aspects of it and like others.Same thing goes for PvP. The legendary backpiece in sPvP is only available in ranked. Some people hate ranked PvP, will never set a foot into it and don't complain that it is not part of PvP. Similiar to instanced PvE. Some people hate it and won't play it but it is still PvE. Open world maps have the monopol for legendary weapons and instanced PvE has the armor and backpiece.What are you talking about? Whether or not people like to play certain parts of PvE has nothing to do with my post. When it comes to distinguishing between content then off course it's too vague to be useful. Why do think people say "WvW" and "sPvP" instead of just PvP? Same thing here.

Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

[STIHL.2489]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The only point of this thread is 'How does Ohoni get Envoy skins without raiding'. This thread is pointless. It only exists because your easy mode raiding crusade failed.

No, there's a different thread for that.

No, both threads have the same goal. Legendary armor in open world. You just want to redefine those 'pillars' to strenghten your argument that there is no legendary armor in PvE. Which is the case, just not in open world.

Actually, it would help all game modes be respected with their own equal rewards, but for that to happen, they all first need to be acknowledged.

Which they already are as each mode offers a way to get legendary armor and backpack. Weapons have always crossed multiple modes.

Unless you’re referring to splitting up the three modes further in which case I should be able to earn legendary armor by doing activities and adventures.

No.. Failure to respect the vary massive difference between Team Based PvE and Open world PvE, and living in an faulty ideal of ALL PvE is the same, is the core of the problem. Once that is addressed, then we can talk about loot, but as long as people deny this very real separation, progress will not happen and it will just hurt Anet and every other MMO's future development.

Well if you feel that they should be split further then I feel they should be split further than that.

Or Anet can add them solely to adventures only and call that adding them to “open world” since that’s where most of them are.

[TexZero.7910]

@Ohoni.6057 said:sPvP also has player verses environment elements to it on most maps. WvW:sPvP as OpenPvE:Raiding.

Not even close.

sPvP's mechanics are secondary and more often than not are nothing more than Snowball or Win-Harder mechanics meant to drive down the match length times.

WvW PvE mechanics are integral to how the mode functions. Without it you can never cap and thus will perpetually lose as there's no way you're winning a match solely of PPK.

[Tails.9372]

@Ashen.2907 said:Because one can not only participate in wvw without engaging another player, one can actually contribute to victory conditions in wvw solely by attacking AI, PvE gameplay.If "fighting AI" is the sole prerequisite for something being PvE then sPvP also counts as a PvE hybrid as some classes are able to summon pets nstuff (also, there is no such thing as "PvE gameplay") but you're blatantly ignoring the point of these game modes. WvW is group PvP, the main goal is to compete with the other realms so even if you don't fight them directly you're still fighting them indirectly by takeing their camps and so on. You have to work towards the overall goal as you can't get the legendary armor set by simply killing veteran harpies.