is cerus cm possible? [Merged]

[Omega.6801]

59 minutes ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

hands down the worst mechanics in the game - enemies with oversize health pools and time limits.

large health pools are monotonous and boring and take forever to reduce.

Nothing feels lamer than "running out of time" and losing to a boss fight, its just ridiculous.

time limits also spits in the face of "play your way" their "moto" that they still ascribe to i would assume.

I guess it should be modified to, "play your way as long as its ranged dps that provides specific boons".

Phrases like "play your way" or "bring the player not the class" haven't been true since HoT. Sometimes, what you could bring/play was a bit more broad than at other times, but ANet has abandoned these mission statements almost a decade ago, when it comes to instanced PvE content and their design philosophy about it.

[Ashen.2907]

19 minutes ago, Omega.6801 said:

Phrases like "play your way" or "bring the player not the class" haven't been true since HoT. Sometimes, what you could bring/play was a bit more broad than at other times, but ANet has abandoned these mission statements almost a decade ago, when it comes to instanced PvE content and their design philosophy about it.

Even before HoT specific classes were better in instanced content than others. I think that much of the homogenization of classes via boon accessibity is actually moving closer to the original statements. In LFG people are generally asking for the boons (regardless of source), not specific classes.

[cat.8975]

1 hour ago, Omega.6801 said:

Phrases like "play your way" or "bring the player not the class" haven't been true since HoT. Sometimes, what you could bring/play was a bit more broad than at other times, but ANet has abandoned these mission statements almost a decade ago, when it comes to instanced PvE content and their design philosophy about it.

The reworks to give more classes access to support quickness and/or alacrity builds has been perfectly in line with "bring the player, not the class". While there are usually some outlier DPS builds, they've done a decent job of tightening up the numbers over the last 5 years or so. They just need to lower the builds that have high ranged DPS uptime so they stop overperforming so much in real fights. It's fine if they have fights where they shine, but it gets dumb when there are maybe 1-3 builds absolutely dominating every other build in most non-golem encounters.

[Tiviana.2650]

Who got the clear? SC, HS or someone else?

[Jokuc.3478]

Unless the last 10% phase has something new and crazy it should be possible, but way out of reach for most players. DPS check is extremely tight even for hardcore guilds.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

Who got the clear? SC, HS or someone else?

So far noone did. SC is now in the first spot at 10.2% left in their best attempt. HS is second at 13%. We'll see if someone manages to do better than that tomorrow. Or whether there's even a final phase at 10%.

Edit: and from what i see the third group is at just below 30% while the fourth only barely passed 50%. That should tell you something about how narrow the target group for this encounter is. Assuming of course someone does manage to clear it eventually.

Edited March 2 by Astralporing.1957

[Zacchary.6183]

On 2/27/2024 at 8:32 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

We'll be increasing Cerus' total health at the same time to preserve encounter balance and will continue keeping an eye on this encounter to see if other adjustments are needed. 

Currently, a group has to pump out 30k+ dps per player to beat ToF CM. The average player can barely break 20k. I hope you guys take this into consideration.

[AliamRationem.5172]

17 hours ago, Omega.6801 said:

Phrases like "play your way" or "bring the player not the class" haven't been true since HoT. Sometimes, what you could bring/play was a bit more broad than at other times, but ANet has abandoned these mission statements almost a decade ago, when it comes to instanced PvE content and their design philosophy about it.

It's more or less an accurate statement.  You can fill the roles of healer, quick/alac, and DPS with any class even if some are more popular than others. 

"Play your way" is more ambiguous.  Obviously, there are limits.  But one might argue that having the ability to use a wide variety of builds with different roles, weapons, traits, damage types, etc. provides a degree of freedom that fits that description.

Where it breaks down a bit is this bleeding edge content where certain classes are stacked to provide a better chance of success.  But that only applies to maybe two encounters in the entire game and contrived challenges (e.g. low man, speed runs, etc.).

[Ashen.2907]

"Play your way," was specifically about leveling. The ability to play whatever content and/or style you prefer and still be able to level. 

I hope people are not going into Strike CMs at level 20 or something.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

"Play your way," was specifically about leveling. The ability to play whatever content and/or style you prefer and still be able to level. 

I hope people are not going into Strike CMs at level 20 or something.

You'll see that what you're saying is not true, there is nowhere that they put in the caveat that play your way doesn't apply to everything in the game.  In fact you can still see the moniker used today on their main splash page, and there is no disclaimer that says *does not apply to high level content. 

https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/play-guild-wars-2

CM cereus pretty much demands 6 virtuosos or some type of heavy ranged meta dps that has 1200 range, which very few classes have.

So much for play your way, even when it comes to just dpsing.

here it is as recently as SoTo release saying the same thing play your way with no disclaimer and saying that you can "Choose from eight unique professions, equip your favorite weapons, and tailor your skills to your play style." -  yah as long as the profession you pick is virtuoso

https://buy.guildwars2.com/en-us/guild-wars-2

here it is on steam where they say the following "play the way you want to play!"  no mention that it doesn't apply to high level content.  And the window for dps on this fight is so tight that you really cant afford to play anything else other than the meta team comp.  Why not add it more wiggle room so other classes can do it, and we can all "play our way?"

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1284210/Guild_Wars_2/

here's another one for PoF release which mentions level 80 characters (not level 20's like you say) and they sell it as play your way. 

Elite Specializations

Continue to evolve and customize your level-80 character with a new elite specialization for each profession. With a new variety of playstyles, weapon choices, and traits to choose from, there are more options than ever to play your way.

https://gamebillet.com/guild-wars-2-path-of-fire

 

 

and to go back to your original point as to what it was originally intended for, you'll see that from this post dated 2012 by Jon Peters who came up with the idea of "play your way" that was clearly used and applied to high level content.  In this article he stipulates that  traits and attributes are to be applied to ENDGAME builds in order to facilitate play your way.

 

-"When we first introduced the trait system, it was a flexible way to modify your character that helped build late-game customization and differentiation between characters. The new trait system does the same but does so in a way that makes these decisions easier to understand as well as more character defining"

 

NO mention of oh this only applies to level 20s or this is just for beginners or that it was "specifically about leveling"

https://community.stratics.com/threads/play-your-way-–-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes.262235/

[Jokuc.3478]

There's still a bug where the empowered walls steal boons from pets like druid pet or mesmer clones. This needs to be fixed..

Edited March 2 by Jokuc.3478

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

NO mention of oh this only applies to level 20s or this is just for beginners or that it was "specifically about leveling"

https://community.stratics.com/threads/play-your-way-–-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes.262235/

Now if only you would bother reading at least few sentences of what you're linking to understand what "play your way" was referring to, that would be great. Then connect that with your very recent claim about "playing your way" being dropped as far as 2015 and we have a full picture of you not understanding what you're complaining about. It certainly wasn't about you thinking you should keep clearing content with basically no damage.
And -spoiler alert- group picking their preferred composition doesn't mean this is the only way to do something. It means they're most comfortable with using that comp.

Edited March 2 by Sobx.1758

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Now if only you would bother reading at least few sentences of what you're linking to understand what "play your way" was referring to, that would be great. Then connect that with your very recent claim about "playing your way" being dropped as far as 2015 and we have a full picture of you not understanding what you're complaining about. It certainly wasn't about you thinking you should keep clearing content with basically no damage.
And -spoiler alert- group picking their preferred composition doesn't mean this is the only way to do something. It means they're most comfortable with using that comp.

i never said it was beating content with no damage, WHERE DID I SAY THAT? and also play your way was from before the launch of the game back in 2012. SO i dunno why you're saying i said its from 2015 lol.  They still ascribe to it today, so whatever..   ANd if they ascribe to it then why is heavy meta ranged dps with a range of 1200 really the only viable way to beat it right now, so much for build diversity from a game that literally has play your way as a moto to this day.

(and yes i proved that it does apply to high level content, and no you dont need to take an extreme position like im suggesting that i should be able to beat all content with a tank or healer build).

I love how you twist things and make up facts just to suit your narrative.

Edited March 3 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Tiviana.2650]

12 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Currently, a group has to pump out 30k+ dps per player to beat ToF CM. The average player can barely break 20k. I hope you guys take this into consideration.

I dont think cm is for the average player, these modes are for the hard core players, thats why they are in the game. No more raids strikes were put in to replace raids. Most players i run with can push 30 to 40k pretty regularly. The damage isnt the issue in cm its learning the mechanics well enough to be able to do your damage at the same time not dying to mechanics 

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

I dont think cm is for the average player, these modes are for the hard core players, thats why they are in the game. No more raids strikes were put in to replace raids. Most players i run with can push 30 to 40k pretty regularly. The damage isnt the issue in cm its learning the mechanics well enough to be able to do your damage at the same time not dying to mechanics 

The mechanics can be learned by anyone who finds a group willing to teach them and then apply themselves. Once the group understands mechanics and the encounters become memorized, they all lose their difficulty. So that's a moot point. But the damage required to finish those encounters is only as trivial as the boss' HP and enrage timer dictates. I was told Cerus CM currently has a little over 130 million HP and an enrage timer of 10 minutes. That is about 2.5x+ more HP than every other CM raid and strike boss in the game and it translates to a ~22k+ dps per person minimum (including healers).

You are right in saying that damage doesn't matter more than mechanics, but the success of the encounter involves both the ability of the players to do mechanics as well as have enough DPS and sustain to finish the fight. Mechanics can be learned, but they will drop average DPS throughout the fight. So the real DPS requirement needed to complete the fight is higher. 2.5x the HP plus additional mechanics is asking a little too much, considering a great majority of the playerbase can't pump over 12k without a more optimized build a/o all the buffs. Experienced players will easily do more more consistently. But even all of the experienced raiders I know can't beat it. 

All anet has to do is fix the HP glitch and then adjust accordingly.

[maxwelgm.4315]

4 hours ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

I dont think cm is for the average player, these modes are for the hard core players, thats why they are in the game. No more raids strikes were put in to replace raids. Most players i run with can push 30 to 40k pretty regularly. The damage isnt the issue in cm its learning the mechanics well enough to be able to do your damage at the same time not dying to mechanics 

The fight has damage pressure under 10% with a ramp up of mechanics and it hints very strongly at the current HP being overturned on purpose. Streamers would already have cleared the original value with no bugs (106M) doing exactly as you mention, but the execution requirements for the extra HP they added make a lot of difference. Most players you run with _absolutely won't_ make the spread mechanics with 30k DPS in this fight and we don't even need to drop names and don't even need to discuss the mechanics since wingman is already there showing statistics of a good sample of top players who simply don't pull that off _in average_.

I don't even mind that Anet has overtuned the encounter when they realized they could hold back the top guilds, but let's not pretend they have made this decision thinking some elusive "hardcore" playerbase would suddenly jump into GW2 starving for a challenge. Even HTCM regulars are simply waiting it out and spectating instead of playing it (examples in this very topic I guess too).

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

i never said it was beating content with no damage, WHERE DID I SAY THAT?

You might have not said these words, but you keep repeating how timers are bad, while timers majorly punish terrible damage. Obviously -or so I thought- by writing "no damage" I don't mean "literally 0 damage" (although if we want to stick to your favorite "play your way", why are we stopping at x damage instead of literal 0? What if "playing my way" is staring at the mob until it dies out of boredom 🤔).

12 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

and also play your way was from before the launch of the game back in 2012. SO i dunno why you're saying i said its from 2015 lol.

I didn't say "you said it's from 2015", I said "you said it was dropped since 2015". Dropped as in abandoned. And you said it here, specifically:

On 3/1/2024 at 10:27 PM, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

so much for "play your way" Guess they got rid of that moto back in 2015 with raids. 

And that's exactly what I mean here.

12 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

They still ascribe to it today, so whatever..

They do, but it doesn't mean -and never did- what you're trying to use it as.

12 hours ago, Jumpin Lumpix.6108 said:

ANd if they ascribe to it then why is heavy meta ranged dps with a range of 1200 really the only viable way to beat it right now, so much for build diversity from a game that literally has play your way as a moto to this day.

You seem to lack understanding that "meta" isn't the equivalent of "only correct/allowed way to play". So with that in mind, what is this non-argumnet supposed to be? You have no choice because meta exists? That's not how it works at all.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You might have not said these words, but you keep repeating how timers are bad, while timers majorly punish terrible damage. Obviously -or so I thought- by writing "no damage" I don't mean "literally 0 damage" (although if we want to stick to your favorite "play your way", why are we stopping at x damage instead of literal 0? What if "playing my way" is staring at the mob until it dies out of boredom 🤔).

I didn't say "you said it's from 2015", I said "you said it was dropped since 2015". Dropped as in abandoned. And you said it here, specifically:

And that's exactly what I mean here.

They do, but it doesn't mean -and never did- what you're trying to use it as.

You seem to lack understanding that "meta" isn't the equivalent of "only correct/allowed way to play". So with that in mind, what is this non-argumnet supposed to be? You have no choice because meta exists? That's not how it works at all.

ok well u go beat it then without virtuosos' tell us how you do, cuz you know its perfect the way it is now, go beat it with an all melee comp, seems like a reasonable demand for a balanced fight.

and i know what the origin of play your way is, ive played the game longer than you.  It was in reference to playing the game (starting and endgame) without a trinity and with a great deal of build diversity which was built upon gw1, which had tons of skills that were interchangeable.  They used swapppable skills and traits to achieve this. which was outlined in the post that i linked.  but it doesnt really apply today does it? (even though they still say it), since they go hard with things like insanely tight dps checks and gimmicky mechanics that only certain specific classes/builds can do.  guess they just want to have their cake and eat it too

Edited March 4 by Jumpin Lumpix.6108

[Vekaiel.8493]

I don't mind the fight being favored for range dps, just don't make it a requirement for clearing it. For the title I don't mind that they push for a specific comp or strategy but for a standard cm with no title, the average dps builds should be able to get a clear.

I see them do spread mechanics all the time to reduce melee dps. Rarely you see them punish being ranged dps. The only time I see it happening was on some bounties you have to stay melee to do damage but even then, a ranged dps will do almost the same amount of dps as melee.

So please, make melee do more dps to balance the fact they have a shorter window of opportunity to do their job. Also don't balance the fight around the top dps build number, just take the average numbers of all viable builds.

I paid for the content, I should be able to clear it with the profession I chose to play. I cleared every content in the game (raid/fractal/strike normal and cm) until cerus cm. I'd like to be able to clear it with my main profession.

[Famine.9780]

On 2/28/2024 at 5:25 PM, MarkMiniMong.5314 said:

Just because you're playing with people who can't press buttons doesn't mean that virtuoso isn't op. It has a higher benchmark than berserker on every cm except HT. On some fights the difference is as high as 5k DPS. The average virtuoso deals much more damage than the average berserker. Telling people that they can play anything in content that has an insanely tight DPS check is just delusional.

Which just isnt true, yes virtuoso benches higher than berserker on many, but not all CM's, but there is literally only 1 fight where the virt bench is 5k higher, the rest is all around a 2k dps difference. Saying there is some imaginary giant gap between virtuoso and berserkbenches is just untrue and disingeniuos. Truth is, there is nobody policing a meta besides the players themselves. It is extremely clear from the past few patches that anet is moving towards a more homogonized performance meta, where pretty much most classes will sit extremely close to one another in performance, especially for dps. Anet ALWAYS has had the stance that (from their perspective) there was no meta, and they will do nothing to enforce it.
Reality is is that it always has been the community which "forced" people to play ceirtain roles, and never something which came from anet's side.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

11 hours ago, Famine.9780 said:

Which just isnt true, yes virtuoso benches higher than berserker on many, but not all CM's, but there is literally only 1 fight where the virt bench is 5k higher, the rest is all around a 2k dps difference. Saying there is some imaginary giant gap between virtuoso and berserkbenches is just untrue and disingeniuos. Truth is, there is nobody policing a meta besides the players themselves. It is extremely clear from the past few patches that anet is moving towards a more homogonized performance meta, where pretty much most classes will sit extremely close to one another in performance, especially for dps. Anet ALWAYS has had the stance that (from their perspective) there was no meta, and they will do nothing to enforce it.
Reality is is that it always has been the community which "forced" people to play ceirtain roles, and never something which came from anet's side.

Considering that Anet is in control of both the mechanical capabilities of a profession, as well as the mechanical demands of a fight, then it is very clear that Anet is responsible for the roles that are demanded for the fight.  The "meta" isn't something that the players arbitrarily pulled from their butts.  Likewise, Anet is currently balancing around maximum golem DPS, irrespective of the utility, mechanics, difficulty of the rotation, or the risk involved around playing the profession.  When it comes to actual encounters, the performance of different specs is nowhere near homogenized.  

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hi all, I have one more update on this: Like I mentioned last week, we've been watching this encounter closely, and we are going to make adjustments with the March 19 game update. 

[Jokuc.3478]

3 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Hi all, I have one more update on this: Like I mentioned last week, we've been watching this encounter closely, and we are going to make adjustments with the March 19 game update. 

It might be a bit too tight with the hp or chaotic at the 10% phase, but please don't nerf it so much that it's not super difficult anymore.

Honestly, something like -10% hp and 2 empowered stacks per slam at the last 10% phase instead of 3 is the most you should do to keep it super high end but still beatable by more than 10 groups. And fix the empowered walls stealing boons from pets/clones bug.

Edited March 6 by Jokuc.3478

[Fifth.8169]

2 minutes ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

It might be a bit too tight with the hp or chaotic at the 10% phase, but please don't nerf it so much that it's not super difficult anymore.

Honestly, something like -10% hp and 2 empowered stacks per slam at the last 10% phase instead of 3 is the most you should do to keep it super high end but still beatable by more than 10 groups. And fix the empowered walls stealing boons from pets/clones bug.

Are you suggesting that content be reserved for the .0001% ?  That’s just rude. There is a reason people choose to play GW2 and it certainly not for the super high end bosses. I like to enjoy a good battle just as much as the next guy, but it should be accessible to all.

[maxwelgm.4315]

17 minutes ago, Jokuc.3478 said:

It might be a bit too tight with the hp or chaotic at the 10% phase, but please don't nerf it so much that it's not super difficult anymore.

Honestly, something like -10% hp and 2 empowered stacks per slam at the last 10% phase instead of 3 is the most you should do to keep it super high end but still beatable by more than 10 groups. And fix the empowered walls stealing boons from pets/clones bug.

Small adjustments already won't make people happy who wanted to have the same challenge as SC is having but won't make people give it a try who weren't interested before, so they might as well not change it if it's that small 🙂 There's always the easy solution which is to simply release the encounter which was the first intended at 106 million HP, nothing else changed. Keep in mind the title run is the "actual CM" and even SC doesn't seem excited to prog it at the current numbers.

Also on a side note, HTCM is already high end and beatable by more than 10 groups and unless they make powercreep official, there's no reason to trying to keep 1-up themselves with more HP and more overlapping mechanics to bosses. The original HP would probably take this to ~HTCM level by allowing groups with benchmark DPS to play a 3rd healer or other alternate strats which actually would make it more interesting for the long term, weekly clears. We don't need one-and-done mythic encounters in GW2 and I hope Anet recognizes that in the end.