Rifle Mesmer Clones

[Passerbye.6291]

So, I'm very happy overall with rifle on chrono for healing, but there is one thing that would make it absolutely perfect for me, which is letting you generate clones on allies when targeting them and on yourself when targeting nothing. 
Since rifle auto attacks can target allies, I feel like we should be able to generate clones on them as well, this would enable chrono healer to generate some quick/alac in between phases as well if he so desires, or simply keep clones alive during trash mob clear scenarios to provide good alac/quick uptime.

As said, I find the rifle already really strong, in fact it was obvious to me that it would be great since day one even though many people hated it, but I feel like this one change would be the cherry on top.

[Mike.7983]

Prob with rifle is the sub par clone generation vs scepter when your trying to spam shatters off for boons.

[Passerbye.6291]

6 minutes ago, Mike.7983 said:

Prob with rifle is the sub par clone generation vs scepter when your trying to spam shatters off for boons.

You can generate 3 clones every 10 or so seconds from mantra of recovery alone, 1 clone every 5 seconds from rifle 2, and with the right trait setup you get a clone back whenever you shatter with 3 clones, this setup would let you sustain alac/quick on your own if you could produce clones that target you or allies depending on your target.

Edited February 27 by Passerbye.6291

[Gesbo.6420]

Maybe add supportive shatter effects for rifle clones. That would make the underwhelming feel of it worth using it...

[Mike.7983]

1 hour ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

You can generate 3 clones every 10 or so seconds from mantra of recovery alone, 1 clone every 5 seconds from rifle 2, and with the right trait setup you get a clone back whenever you shatter with 3 clones, this setup would let you sustain alac/quick on your own if you could produce clones that target you or allies depending on your target.

Still slow considering third scepter auto was dumping out free clones, scepter 2 block was a incredibly abusive 2 clone on demand as well.  Rifle seems to have more burst healing but it needs to be tuned still.

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, Mike.7983 said:

Prob with rifle is the sub par clone generation vs scepter when your trying to spam shatters off for boons.

True, but everything is sub-par compared to the scepter's clone spam. That's not really a fair comparison.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, Mike.7983 said:

Prob with rifle is the sub par clone generation vs scepter when your trying to spam shatters off for boons.

Shatter boons aren't tied to the number of clones shattered though! It's only quick/alac for chrono.

[Gesbo.6420]

3 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Shatter boons aren't tied to the number of clones shattered though! It's only quick/alac for chrono.

And protection from illusionary defence

[Jojo.6590]

I still stick with my first views of the rifle from the beta (full rework). It just misses the mark. You'd think Anet would have learned that single-target heals did not work great on Thief with EoD. For a weapon that is supposed to be for group support, it falls short.  The portal concept still feels like a gimmick that is useless in Zergs/large-scale fights and does not last long enough for people to use in both large and small/havoc fights. Skill 4 is also useless in large-scale fights, though the increased cast time/ speed feels much better. We finally get more access to ethereal fields but lack much of anything (burst, leaps, spins, etc) to combo with it. It feels awful when so many classes got increases in their mobility with EoD and SoRTO and Mesmer did not (still running blink).

The weapon just feels soulless and rushed as it is just very simplistic and boring to use. However, this seems to be the direction of GW2 since EoD (at least for the classes that "people" don't want "optimal and viable" because they "don't like fighting Memser").  

This is just disappointing. Especially when so much feedback was given in the beta and so much of it was neglected while other classes got full reworks on their weapon skills/weapons.

Edited February 28 by Jojo.6590
Touch up

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

2 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Prob with rifle is the sub par clone generation vs scepter when your trying to spam shatters off for boons.

I dunno how you are using the rifle but the clone generation isn't sub par to me, and in fact thanks to it I am not bothered by interrupting my attack chain if I have to with scepter.

[Zenith.7301]

If you want to see sub par clone generation, just go with mainhand sword. There's a reason it was deleted off the face of the earth the moment they allowed mesmers of any spec to use virtuoso dagger.

[Passerbye.6291]

6 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

True, but everything is sub-par compared to the scepter's clone spam. That's not really a fair comparison.

As someone already responded, you don't need extra clones to get the base boons, only alac and quick, but even then you have more than enough clones to overcap protection and alac/quick, you even have high or even perfect uptime on vigor depending on how well you play, these are the only boons tied to your clone generation. Scepter is strictly inferior to rifle for heal chrono.
 

6 hours ago, Mike.7983 said:

Still slow considering third scepter auto was dumping out free clones, scepter 2 block was a incredibly abusive 2 clone on demand as well.  Rifle seems to have more burst healing but it needs to be tuned still.

Rifle does about 3k healing per second literally just auto attacking and pressing 2 off of cooldown, it has both burst and sustain healing that is way higher than scepter, while also having the option to deliver them at range if needed.
 

5 hours ago, Jojo.6590 said:

I still stick with my first views of the rifle from the beta (full rework). It just misses the mark. You'd think Anet would have learned that single-target heals did not work great on Thief with EoD. For a weapon that is supposed to be for group support, it falls short.  The portal concept still feels like a gimmick that is useless in Zergs/large-scale fights and does not last long enough for people to use in both large and small/havoc fights. Skill 4 is also useless in large-scale fights, though the increased cast time/ speed feels much better. We finally get more access to ethereal fields but lack much of anything (burst, leaps, spins, etc) to combo with it. It feels awful when so many classes got increases in their mobility with EoD and SoRTO and Mesmer did not (still running blink).

The weapon just feels soulless and rushed as it is just very simplistic and boring to use. However, this seems to be the direction of GW2 since EoD (at least for the classes that "people" don't want "optimal and viable" because they "don't like fighting Memser").  

This is just disappointing. Especially when so much feedback was given in the beta and so much of it was neglected while other classes got full reworks on their weapon skills/weapons.

The heal on autos isn't single target, the damage is, the heal goes to the 5 allies near the impact. Portal on weapon 5 is an added bonus, that skill is an 8-second resistance (with 100% boon duration) and over 4.5k barrier on 20-second cooldown, not sure why people don't see it as a good skill, it is an incredibly potent mitigation for both incoming burst damage, and nondamaging conditions, including fear btw.

Weapon 4 is a 5-man aoe stun that lasts 2 seconds, not sure how it isn't good, granted it is a projectile so I assume it gets hard countered in WvW, but a 2-sec aoe stun that can be cast from 1.2k range with no way to block it other than stab while also possessing 2 charges would be way too strong.

Rifle comes with boon output that is evidently well thought-out just from looking at the might amount, 12 stacks of might gives you 25 stacks by combining well of action and shatter 1, which lets you easily keep your subsquad at 25 stacks at all times. Rifle also provides you with easy access to permanent regen and fury without needing to jump through hoops. The only thing the build is missing is swiftness, but that is easily alleviated by using relic of febe. Overall, the build benefits a whole lot from running healing mantra anyway, so swiftness comes passively with that setup as well. This renders your weapon swap purely utility, so you can run things like focus pull, or shield for extra tanking if needed, or staff if the fight has a lot of splits and you need some extra burst of alac/quick at the beginning of the fight or before splits (2x phantasm amounting to 12 seconds of alac/quick with a single cast, which can be double cast with continuum split)

Btw, all the crowd control you have access to, of which you have many, can be augmented by a sigil of paralyzation, making heal chrono incredible in terms of crowd control output. A full harrier/giver setup with monk runes and ascended healing food puts you at 100% boon duration, and chrono happens to be one of those healers that don't actually require anywhere near 100% boon duration, just makes it more comfortable.

I can't argue against your feelings on the feel of the weapon as that is strictly your personal taste, all I can say is that I'm sorry that you don't get the enjoyment out of it that I do.
 

Edited February 28 by Passerbye.6291

[Terrorhuz.4695]

5 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Portal on weapon 5 is an added bonus, that skill is an 8-second resistance (with 100% boon duration) and over 4.5k barrier on 20-second cooldown

Basically, this. The portal is a nice trick for super organized teamplay, in every other instance you're just using skill5 for barriering your teammates and it honestly works really well.

The weapon now feels super easy to use, you get to spam a lot of healing as a support mesmer, and it looks really good in pvp

- Need to resustain your teammates and have a bit of time to do that? Press your healing skill, drop 8k AoE healing. Mantra of recovery + restorative mantras + relic of the flock: 8k AoE heal in PvP, from ONE button
- Need to resustain your teammates RIGHT NOW? Rifle 2 + rifle3 is 5.5k burst healing in less than a second. You can also instacast the mantra on top of that, if you really need it. Rifle2 and rifle3 can also give some 9s regeneration, because why not.
- Need to resustain your allies on a sluggish fight? Rifle AA and regeneration is 700 HPS for free, while you wait for something to happen. And you proc regeneration pretty much all the time; rifle2 gives it, but you also have all the regen procs from chaos (AoE regen on healing skill, AoE regen when you grant chaos aura with rifle3 and F2, then chaos aura itself randomly grants regeneration on hit).
- Need EVEN FASTER survivability for your teammates? Rifle5 is 3k barrier AoE, everyone will be happy. I have yet to see anyone using the portal, I have yet to see anyone complain for the fat barrier.

Individual skills don't feel mesmer at all, but they create a gameplay which actually resembles what you'd usually do as a roaming mesmer; you stay at range and poke for damage healing for as long as you can, when it's time for a burst of damage healing+boons you jump in the thick of the action, quickly get your task done, then back at range again, as you still don't have the tools to survive at melee range in a teamfight.

The weapon itself doesn't have much survivability (like a support should be; if you're focused, you go down). This creates a support which is not the copy paste of guardian; it works really well on some maps (Skyhammer, where you have a lot of kiting spots from range) and fail miserably on others (Djin Dominion, mid node has plenty of walls to prevent ranged fighters from doing their thing). It also has counterplay, since rifle mesmer really lacks in the cleanse department, so condition-heavy comps have a change to shine. On top of rifle being very good and easy to use, you get all the other various mesmer shenanigans (Feedback and IoL for resses, mass invis for peeling, grav well for the CC, well of precognition for aegis). I don't know if it can compete with guardian (which features just as impressive healing and even better self survivability when focused), but the build is fun and it works. The numbers themselves are massive.

EDIT: the whole thing I said about being weak to focus goes down the drain. I was playing with staff, saw Misha playing with sword\shield and neutering every burst. Never thought I'd see the day I'd say "support mesmer is meta", but here we are.

Edited February 28 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Salt Mode.3780]

Note that the numbers on the rifle will be nerfed at the balance patch so whatever numbers are seen now will be lowered.

[Passerbye.6291]

20 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Note that the numbers on the rifle will be nerfed at the balance patch so whatever numbers are seen now will be lowered.

These are the lowered numbers afaik

Edit: Yup, just checked, because if the numbers weren't nerfed I'd do close to 4k heal per sec with 2 buttons.
These are the March 19 preview patch notes for mesmer

On 2/16/2024 at 9:34 PM, Butterfly Kingdom.8349 said:

Mesmer

We made some adjustments to mesmer support builds in WvW in the January update, but it's clear that they're still a bit stronger than we'd like them to be, and we're making additional changes to reduce their effectiveness. We've also made some small improvements to power-based mirage builds in PvE.

• Null Field: Reduced the field duration from 5 seconds to 2 seconds in WvW only. Reduced the number of pulses from 6 to 3 in WvW only.
• Mantra of Concentration: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 25 seconds in WvW only.
• Power Break: Reduced the stability duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in WvW only.
• Desperate Decoy: This trait has been reworked. Gain vigor when you evade an attack.
• Master Fencer: This trait now gives increased personal fury duration.
• Chaotic Transference: Reduced the shared chaos aura duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in WvW only.
• Temporal Enchanter: This trait no longer increases the duration of glamour skills.
• Sympathetic Visage: This trait no longer affects nearby allies and only pulls conditions from the player.

Chronomancer

• Well of Precognition: This skill now grants allies 3 stacks of stability for 5 seconds on its first pulse.

Mirage

• Phantom Razor: Increased the power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Split Surge: Increased the power coefficient from 0.45 to 0.85 in PvE only.
• Mirage Thrust: Increased the power coefficient from 1.0 to 3.0 in PvE only.
• Dune Cloak: This trait has been reworked. Gain Mirage Cloak when you shatter 2 or more clones.

Virtuoso

• Sword of Decimation: This skill now applies its bonus damage and inflicts additional defiance damage on defiant foes.
• Infinite Forge: This trait now refunds two blades after casting a Bladesong skill with 5 blades in addition to its previous effect.

Edited February 28 by Passerbye.6291

[Teknomancer.4895]

5 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

As someone already responded, you don't need extra clones to get the base boons, only alac and quick, but even then you have more than enough clones to overcap protection and alac/quick, you even have high or even perfect uptime on vigor depending on how well you play, these are the only boons tied to your clone generation. Scepter is strictly inferior to rifle for heal chrono.

None of which factored into my post, which was solely about clone generation with a scepter. What in my post could have possibly given you the idea that I was referring to anything other than the number of clones generated by a scepter, compared to other weapons? Did I even mention boons at all? No I did not, because I was talking about the number of clones provided by the weapon. Don't read stuff into people's posts that isn't there.

[Passerbye.6291]

9 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

None of which factored into my post, which was solely about clone generation with a scepter. What in my post could have possibly given you the idea that I was referring to anything other than the number of clones generated by a scepter, compared to other weapons? Did I even mention boons at all? No I did not, because I was talking about the number of clones provided by the weapon. Don't read stuff into people's posts that isn't there.

Because clone generation is only relevant with shatters in mind, as the clones themselves do barely anything with the spec in question, some small healing (which doesn't even work since scepter doesn't generate clones when capped), and 130-150 heal per auto from the clones on rifle if you don't shatter them. This makes it so that any build capable of running out of shatters after using them with 3 clones each, has no issues with clone generation. The only advantage a weapon like scepter with higher clone generation brings is a faster ramp up of putting the shatters on cooldown. So what I'm saying is, if you generate enough clones with rifle + healing mantra, scepter could literally generate a clone every single auto attack and it wouldn't make a meaningful difference without resetting shatter cooldowns. 

I responded because the initial exchange started with the claim (not yours btw) that rifle couldn't generate enough clones, while the facts prove otherwise as you can find in my initial response to Mike.

Edited February 28 by Passerbye.6291

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

True, but everything is sub-par compared to the scepter's clone spam. That's not really a fair comparison.

It is when they made a healing weapon and decided to ignore what our healing trait line does when designing it.

[Zebulous.2934]

As to why Mesmer rifle doesn't create a clone when you target a player:

When a clone is generated by a skill it automatically auto attacks the creature you were targeting as it was created.  If rifle were to generate clones when you target a player those clones would naturally follow and target that player.  If the player never dies then the clones could persist indefinitely.  (If you don't shatter, if the clone doesn't take a lethal amount of damage, If you don't generate a fourth clone, and if you don't move too far away from your clone.)  I could imagine two mesmers giving another player a near permanent entourage of six heal-clones.

A more fun example would be ten mesmers following a guy around town and generating thirty clones. 

I have experienced signet of illusions generating a clone that target bits of scenery that the clone cannot reach.  The signet's passive generates a clone that targets a nearby hostile entity, sometimes my staff aoe causes an object to become hostile.  I have stood nearby just to see how long the clone would last.  Signet clones are quite content to remain after I leave combat, in fact the clones themselves eventually also leave combat and sheath their weapon.  If you are lucky the clone can spawn far enough away from the local enemy spawn that the clone just doesn't get attacked.  My longest test was ten minutes.  I suspect that the clone would have lasted longer, but I became bored.

I don't mind rifle generating clones when players are targeted, I don't mind those clones persisting indefinitely.  I am afraid that Anet would force clones to self destruct when leaving combat just to avoid clone swarms in towns.  I just don't like anet adding an additional self destruct mechanic to clones.
To be honest I really would like to see a player run around Lion's Arch pursued by 30 clones and 10 mesmers.

[Chyro.1462]

On 2/28/2024 at 12:02 AM, Passerbye.6291 said:

You can generate 3 clones every 10 or so seconds from mantra of recovery alone, 1 clone every 5 seconds from rifle 2, and with the right trait setup you get a clone back whenever you shatter with 3 clones, this setup would let you sustain alac/quick on your own if you could produce clones that target you or allies depending on your target.

Can you (or someone) explain this to me? Am trying to learn heal chrono but struggling a bit with the quick/alac uptime. You say mantra of recovery generates 3 clones every 10 or so seconds, but I don't see clones mentioned anywhere on the mantra?

Edit: nvm, found the trait ^^

Edited March 9 by Chyro.1462

[Gesbo.6420]

2 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

Can you (or someone) explain this to me? Am trying to learn heal chrono but struggling a bit with the quick/alac uptime. You say mantra of recovery generates 3 clones every 10 or so seconds, but I don't see clones mentioned anywhere on the mantra?

Edit: nvm, found the trait ^^

Hey buddy, what people are referring to is the inspiration trait Ego Restoration. It reads that every time you cast a heal skill you generate a clone. For mantra of recovery that would be when you charge the mantra, and on its 2 charges. Hope that helps! 

[Gesbo.6420]

On 3/1/2024 at 2:58 PM, Zebulous.2934 said:

As to why Mesmer rifle doesn't create a clone when you target a player:

When a clone is generated by a skill it automatically auto attacks the creature you were targeting as it was created.  If rifle were to generate clones when you target a player those clones would naturally follow and target that player.  If the player never dies then the clones could persist indefinitely.  (If you don't shatter, if the clone doesn't take a lethal amount of damage, If you don't generate a fourth clone, and if you don't move too far away from your clone.)  I could imagine two mesmers giving another player a near permanent entourage of six heal-clones.

A more fun example would be ten mesmers following a guy around town and generating thirty clones. 

I have experienced signet of illusions generating a clone that target bits of scenery that the clone cannot reach.  The signet's passive generates a clone that targets a nearby hostile entity, sometimes my staff aoe causes an object to become hostile.  I have stood nearby just to see how long the clone would last.  Signet clones are quite content to remain after I leave combat, in fact the clones themselves eventually also leave combat and sheath their weapon.  If you are lucky the clone can spawn far enough away from the local enemy spawn that the clone just doesn't get attacked.  My longest test was ten minutes.  I suspect that the clone would have lasted longer, but I became bored.

I don't mind rifle generating clones when players are targeted, I don't mind those clones persisting indefinitely.  I am afraid that Anet would force clones to self destruct when leaving combat just to avoid clone swarms in towns.  I just don't like anet adding an additional self destruct mechanic to clones.
To be honest I really would like to see a player run around Lion's Arch pursued by 30 clones and 10 mesmers.

The problem I have is it feels like each skill on the rifle has some pieces of great design but they are not put together.

Friendly fire can target allys as the name would suggest bur your clones will always target the closest enemy or your target enemy depending on how you generate them. And in pve that's cool because you have your target everyone is swarming around it you will heal around it.  So the option to target allies is rather pointless most of the time and it reveals you from your clones. It's not like you would be healing your allies more if you shoot them directly or anything.

Journey is a cool skill that targets the ground with lovely visual that generates a clone. But the clone generated targets the closest enemy. Not even an enemy that has been hit with the skill just the closest enemy to you. You have the option to target allies which would also generate a clone but it would still target enemies if any are available, despite the fact that friendly fire can target allies...

Inspiring imagery and abstraction are pretty cool with their burst heals and weakness application. You finally have access to a burst that can be used in fields! Amazing addition to mesmers... however the skill comes with its own field. Which means that the only field you would ever be able to blast would be your own. That thief that wants to stealth everyone in the beginning of the march you can never help. You can do mass cleanse and blindness with your wells tho! 

Sharpshooter just is. Cool stun animation that is aoe as well which can lead to holding the whole fight in one place but you don't even get the 2 charges in pvp and wvw. 

And ofcourse singularity shot. Despite their attempt with the animation to show when the portal is opened from dimensional aperture hardly anyone uses it. I've had a grand total of 3 people take it since release and it's been an amazing tool for moving people from point to point paired with blink .but the interaction is clunky.  The duration if how long the portal stays open for is super short. The lack of clarity for it being open or not is also confusing and people are not used to it which might be adding to the problem, not to mention that it might have some pathing problems, but more on that later.  It also feels particularly punishing to open it and for noone to use it and you still have a 20+ sec to your cooldown penalty because noone reacted to jump in the portal for the what feels like .5  seconds it was opened. 

I feel like there were plans for clones to target allies but with the mentioned above threats to the servers they decided to go against it. 

Not to mention all the janky bugs with the weapon. 

 

Friendly fire will not prock heal in an area if the target is an ally. The bullet just vanishes with no animation. I'm not sure if this was intentional but if it was why  does it feel so buggy.

Inspiring imagery gets lost in uneven trains CONSTANTLY. and you are punished for the fact that the floor was 1 pixel too high (this can be fixed with mortar arc to the skill or it being programmed like a symbol rather than a projectile I guess) 

Singularity shot would sometimes miss the mark for the same reason as Inspiring imagery and it will go on full 40s cooldown...

If your advertising headline for the weapon is directing people to the nearest exit (portal) the portal should be a bigger part of the kit... but I still like the weapon a lot. Its just janky I guess... 

[Passerbye.6291]

7 hours ago, Chyro.1462 said:

Can you (or someone) explain this to me? Am trying to learn heal chrono but struggling a bit with the quick/alac uptime. You say mantra of recovery generates 3 clones every 10 or so seconds, but I don't see clones mentioned anywhere on the mantra?

Edit: nvm, found the trait ^^

Just saw this sorry, if you need help beyond clone generation with heal chrono, feel free to hit me up in-game some time and we can discuss it in detail.

[Hackuuna.4085]

Rifle 2 currently does generate clones when used on yourself or allies. The catch, of course, is the clone needs to be able to attach to a nearby enemy when doing so, much like all the other clone generation skills and traits. This is also while not selecting anything.