Please get rid of the daily defence option (WvW) for the Wizard's Vault

[Hesione.9412]

I know unpopular, or at least more complained about in the forums, PvE dailies were taken out. Why is the WvW defence activity still in there? There are negative comments from last year about this daily, in the forums. I have it again today, and most times I don't get credit. Roaming doesn't work unless you can kill two or more players, because doing damage to an enemy player attacking an objective doesn't count. In a squad can still cause problems - unless you are one of the lucky few who manage to do enough damage or hit an opposing player who either did damage to the objective, or killed a guard. And lots of enemy players haven't done either if the wall or gate hasn't gone down, although the defence timer is up. Killing them does not give credit. Putting supply into walls was removed as a contributor to this activity, so that isn't an option, either. And you can just be unlucky and be on at a time when either you are heavily outnumbered or there is no opposition to be seen.

Pre-empting the "but just do another option", it's daft if one of the options isn't great in the first place. The PvE option of doing one of the LA daily activities (e.g. Southsun) was removed, even though it is impossible to fail any of those. Go in, do a couple of things, get credit. Something that takes 5 minutes was removed from the rotation because ?it was too difficult. And one of the more difficult ones in WvW was retained.

[Ylthan.1693]

Yeah this is a messy one and considering it status it shouldn't be on daily objectives...

I mean you can litteraly kill dozen of invaders but if these bad boys didn't kill a guard or damage the structure with sieges (coz you know they're already dead) well tough luck you don't get credit.

I don't even bother trying to do it anymore.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Thing is, the defense events works as intended, but not the way most people would think. 

Let's say 3 people attack a tower with a catapult, destroying the wall. 

They go inside the tower and you+friends kill them. 

But you don't get the event participation. 🤔

Reason is that the one player you killed technically didn't attack the tower. 

He didn't damage the wall and he didn't attack npcs. 

He only was inside the tower. From the games perspective, he could be standing in spawn for all that matters. That player never interacted with the tower or the defense event. 

So why would the game give you credit for defending for killing that player? 

Edited March 14 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Omega.6801]

It's still there because ANet still thinks that defense in WvW is working as intended, which is a joke. But they obviously don't care about this cornerstone gamemode, so why should we?

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

8 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Thing is, the defense events works as intended, but not the way most people would think. 

Let's say 3 people attack a tower with a catapult, destroying the wall. 

They go inside the tower and you+friends kill them. 

But you don't get the event participation. 🤔

Reason is that the one player you killed technically didn't attack the tower. 

He didn't damage the wall and he didn't attack npcs. 

He only was inside the tower. From the games perspective, he could be standing in spawn for all that matters. That player never interacted with the tower or the defense event. 

So why would the game give you credit for defending for killing that player? 

Because in the abstract sense, that player was attacking the tower. Your right in your reasoning, but that's why people want it removed from the dailies. The current setup for defense events is not intuitive, and it's not fun.

I could stand at the gates to an objective all day killing players that try to attack it, the game does not register this as a defence event because as you quite rightly say, they haven't actually done anything to damage the guards or objective. Even if other players are inside fighting and the event is actively up, if I just block their reinforcements from getting in I will get no participation unless they kill guards. But as far as the concept of defending an objective goes, I am defending that objective.

It is difficult to deliberately complete that WV task. Sometimes it might take you 5 minutes, sometimes you won't get it for hours.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

9 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Because in the abstract sense, that player was attacking the tower. Your right in your reasoning, but that's why people want it removed from the dailies. The current setup for defense events is not intuitive, and it's not fun.

I could stand at the gates to an objective all day killing players that try to attack it, the game does not register this as a defence event because as you quite rightly say, they haven't actually done anything to damage the guards or objective. Even if other players are inside fighting and the event is actively up, if I just block their reinforcements from getting in I will get no participation unless they kill guards. But as far as the concept of defending an objective goes, I am defending that objective.

It is difficult to deliberately complete that WV task. Sometimes it might take you 5 minutes, sometimes you won't get it for hours.

Im absoluty for removing it. Should have said so in the post above.

[Gop.8713]

I'm not sure I can go so far as to say I'm in favor of removing it, but removing it would definitely be consistent with recent anet decisions regarding pve dailies so I do agree that anet should be in favor of removing it . . .

In the interim, unlike the wvw weeklies for the wv daily you just need to defend any objective. So camps count. Getting camp defense credit is much easier than tower/keep credit. I'm not sure I've ever killed a camp attacker and not gotten credit. The only thing that can maybe mess you up there is if they manage to run out of the event area before you get them. Just lie in wait, let them burn their cds, gank. It's cheesy, but reliable . . .

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Thing is, the defense events works as intended, but not the way most people would think. 

Let's say 3 people attack a tower with a catapult, destroying the wall. 

They go inside the tower and you+friends kill them. 

But you don't get the event participation. 🤔

Reason is that the one player you killed technically didn't attack the tower.

Based on my own experience i'm very certain this theory is not true.

I have also zero troubles getting defense credit, no matter if it's a camp, tower or keep. Just killing any single player withing active defense event radius seems to be enough, as long a player is contributing towards that kill in a significant enough manner and not just tagging alongside many others.

Let's keep one of the few dailies that is actually about PvP in a PvP game mode. You can always stick to the PvE ones if you wish, which is the majority among WvW dailies/weeklies ...

[DanAlcedo.3281]

14 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Based on my own experience i'm very certain this theory is not true.

I have also zero troubles getting defense credit, no matter if it's a camp, tower or keep. Just killing any single player withing active defense event radius seems to be enough, as long a player is contributing towards that kill in a significant enough manner and not just tagging alongside many others.

Let's keep one of the few dailies that is actually about PvP in a PvP game mode. You can always stick to the PvE ones if you wish, which is the majority among WvW dailies/weeklies ...

From many years and thousands of hours in WVW.

It always worked that way. Same as having to do a minimum of around 500 or so dmg to get kill credit.

 

 

Edited March 14 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Thing is, the defense events works as intended, but not the way most people would think.

Oh, we already know how it works, and that it is intended. We also know that it is designed badly, and works badly. And i doubt that was intended at all.

I mean, imagine a different situation: a big zerg  assaults a keep. A small number of players manages to hold off the assault for quite a while, even destroying some siege in the process. By doing that, they manage to keep the attackers engaged long enough that a friendly zerg arrives and kills some attackers while chasing the rest away. Even though the first group's effort was crucial in succesfully defending the keep, they get no participation, because they haven't actually managed to kill any enemy player. The second (relief) group effort didn;t count for participation either, because, even though they did manage to kill a significant number of attackers, they did it by attacking from behind, so those that died, died outside event area.

Succesful defence, even heroic one might say, but noone gets anything for it, because the participation system was designed badly.

[vares.8457]

I never had any issues getting credit for defending and completing the task.
I don’t think they should remove it from the wizards vault. If you don’t like doing it then there are three other tasks you can do to complete the daily. But there are players like me who actually like doing it. 

Edited March 14 by vares.8457

[Zyreva.1078]

59 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

It always worked that way. Same as having to do a minimum of around 500 or so dmg to get kill credit.

Then how i'm getting defense credit for killing a single player that died before getting close enough to the "defended" objective to interact with it in any way ?

I think people just made that theory up, because they don't want to admit that they aren't actually contributing to many "kills" in a significant way.

Also there's different dmg thresholds for "kill credit" (participation requires less dmg than wxp/loot, and i guess defense credit requires more dmg dealt).

Edited March 14 by Zyreva.1078

[Cuks.8241]

They could treat it the same way as some of the pve ones. Add additional component like defense event or kill 3 enemy players in your teritory or deal 100k dmg to enemy players in your teritory.

[Cuks.8241]

9 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Then how i'm getting defense credit for killing a single player that died before getting close enough to the "defended" objective to interact with it in any way ?

I'm pretty sure people just made that theory up, because they don't want to admit that they aren't actually contributing to many "kills" in a significant way.

It's definitely not enough to just kill any player in the radius. I can tell you this from thousands of kills and hours. Not only squad vs squad wars without a single event credit but completely solo kills within the inner keeps. The player must have somehow interacted with the objective although I don't know what those interactions are and if they were ever confirmed.

Edit: This is just my hunch, nothing confirmed. I think it also depends on the objective. SMC for example you get credit all the time (but there are also lot's of guard to aggro) but Klovan seems to be one that it's almost impossible to get it. I noticed it because once we wiped several squads of enemies from 2 attacking sides and somehow no one from my squad got defence. That was like an hour long back and forth. And since than I'm keeping an eye on that one from habit.

Edited March 14 by Cuks.8241

[Zyreva.1078]

11 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

It's definitely not enough to just kill any player in the radius. I can tell you this from thousands of kills and hours. Not only squad vs squad wars without a single objective but completely solo kills within the inner keeps. The player must have somehow interacted with the objective although I don't know what those interactions are and if they were ever confirmed.

It is possible that the defense event wasn't active and that might have been the reason for those solo kills to not count. I do not remember a single time where i solo killed an enemy within active defense event range and it didn't count.

Now i haven't done any actual testing, but that "attackers have to interact with the objectives in oder to count" theory simply doesn't explain why i don't have difficulties getting defense credit and other's do. Because it would be independent from what the defender does and therefore pretty much the same unreliable outcome for everyone. If anything, tagging many players would increase the chance for getting defense credit, but the opposite seems to be the case.

Edited March 14 by Zyreva.1078

[Gop.8713]

2 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I never had any issues getting credit for defending and completing the task.
I don’t think they should remove it from the wizards vault. If you don’t like doing it then there are three other tasks you can do to complete the daily. But there are players like me who actually like doing it. 

This is the way I felt about activities in pve dailies. Unfortunately, anet disagrees . . .

To me the issue with having defense as a daily is not that it's difficult to succeed but that it can be difficult to find an opportunity to succeed. It's entirely possible to run around wvw for twenty minutes and just not find anyone attacking any of your objectives. And since the ten minute activities were considered too burdensome for pve dailies, defense must also be considered too burdensome for wvw dailies . . .

The new goal with dailies seems to be "log in, ten minutes later you're done", perhaps as a concession to all the multiaccount ppls who were miffed about losing their login rewards idk. Within that structure only the 'pve' wvw objectives really fit, bc they are the only ones that can be guaranteed to be available at all hours, regardless of when someone logs in. Under this system, objectives that require the other team to provide the content must be restricted to weeklies . . .

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Now i haven't done any actual testing, but that "attackers have to interact with the objectives in oder to count" theory simply doesn't explain why i don't have difficulties getting defense credit and other's do. Because it would be independent from what the defender does and therefore pretty much the same unreliable outcome for everyone. If anything, tagging many players would increase the chance for getting defense credit, but the opposite seems to be the case.

It being an unreliable outcome makes it highly susceptible to luck. For tens of thousands of people tat got nothing in a lottery there's always that one that wins the big prize.

The issues with defence events are pretty well documented by many WvW guilds and veterans by now. I find it far more likely that you're just plain lucky, than that they all are wrong.

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

For tens of thousands of people tat got nothing in a lottery there's always that one that wins the big prize.

But how many are there that win every single time? It's not like we are talking about a one time occurrence.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Even as someone that got their 10 weekly defenses by Tuesday, I think it's pretty bad. Sometimes it just doesn't give it.  As a side note, I think 10 is a bit much for the weekly too, even assuming it did work perfectly. And yea OP is about the daily, but I can't imagine them being a fan of the weekly either.

 

I think the main problem is the objective boundaries. So you drive someone out of your tower, but they jump out of it and you chase for a bit and kill them but it doesn't count because it's technically not in the objective. Or whatever rules it goes by.  Who the kitten really knows? It'd be much more sensible if the objective's territory was the same as thei gliding area.

Of course, I suppose someone will be like "omfg what if someone takes advantage of this with 10 alt accounts on the other server nd farms like this?" and to that  I would say the game already knows to lower rewards for killing people that haven't been alive for too long, eg we already have a built in thing against inting.

Sometimes there's also some weird kitten where I guess they're not categorized as an attacker because they didn't aggro guards/damage walls. Which kinda draws to the other problem. It shouldn't be dependent on stuff like that. If you kill an enemy player in an objective's territory, it should be considered defending instead of all this stuff you have no control over.

I feel like removing repair credit was probably not the best idea. It was mostly targted at degens that would sit there all day repairing SMC outer walls, but they could have just tackled SMC directly or cooldowns on many times you can get credit.

Ironically the best way to get it is still to camp SMC though I suppose it's somewhat more effort.

Fundamentally, the problem is this  thing  is out of the player's control and is more dependent on the enemy's decisions. The closest thing to it will be killing enemy players, but that's usually much more flexible.

But I'll give you the most optimal strategy. When you capture an enemy objective and you downed an  enemy, just remember to not kill them until you capture it and wait til it triggers a defense; to make sure punt them into the guards. Surely this is great gameplay.

Edited March 15 by ArchonWing.9480

[Vicious JG.2547]

I strongly agree with this issue. I play WvW most the time and have both daily and weekly set to WvW. There are 3 objectives I always ignore when it comes to daily and weekly - defend, jumping puzzle and EotM. 

If removing the defense objective is not a solution for them, they could just fix it by giving defense credit for ressing dead NPCs inside the structure and repairing walls/gates within the defense timer. No need to give them a participation credit or bronze/silver/gold credit. Just make them count for daily and weekly. The same sense with dolyak escort, just get near them to pop their bubble and still get escort daily or weekly. 

 

[Hesione.9412]

10 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

I never had any issues getting credit for defending and completing the task.
I don’t think they should remove it from the wizards vault. If you don’t like doing it then there are three other tasks you can do to complete the daily. But there are players like me who actually like doing it. 

There's always someone, and who didn't read my OP.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

So, if the defense Event works like some people tell me.🤔

That would mean that the game server has to run constant checks if a player is inside a certain area. Without that player interacting. 

Making it the only event in the game to do so. 🤔

Pretty wierd stuff. 🤔🤔🤔

 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So, if the defense Event works like some people tell me.🤔

That would mean that the game server has to run constant checks if a player is inside a certain area. Without that player interacting. 

Making it the only event in the game to do so. 🤔

Pretty wierd stuff. 🤔🤔🤔

Yes. They introduced those additional checks when they tightened event participation requirements for WvW. That's when the participation issues started to arise. For a while players could do with wall repair workaround, so it was less noticeable, but when that was removed the adjusted mechanic hit in force.

Notice, that the assault events also have some glitches now, it's just that their additional requirements seem to be a bit easier to get with normal play. Still, the issues do happen from time to time, and it is now possible to get just a bronze participation even when being there from wall/gate destruction to lord killing and tower capping (especially if the zerg around you is big enough).

So, basically, the issues happen precisely because those events have participation requirements that are not part of the scripting for any other events.

Edit: and, notice, that the checks are not "constant". They happen only upon triggering somehing that might result in participation (in this case, specifically, killing an enemy player). You can go out and back without clearing participation. The enemy can go out and back without stopping being counted as an attacker. They just cannot die outside the event area.

Hint nr 2: Another peculiarity is that they have to be inside the event area when they die, not you. I have obtained defence participation in defence event i wasn't participaing it by chasing someone from a camp who shortly after got killed attacking a nearby tower. I wasn't even near the defence event, but they were, an they were counted as attackers, so i suddenly qualified as defender.

Yes, defence participation requirements are extremely weird stuff. And that's a problem.

Edited March 15 by Astralporing.1957

[Cuks.8241]

8 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

So, if the defense Event works like some people tell me.🤔

That would mean that the game server has to run constant checks if a player is inside a certain area. Without that player interacting. 

Making it the only event in the game to do so. 🤔

Pretty wierd stuff. 🤔🤔🤔

 

How is that weird? The game constantly checks your position and relation to other assets. If we just stick to a few obvious examples in wvw: gliding area, ex warclaw mount speed, defender buff, capture rings, objective reveals.

And most events do this anyway. Most events require you to be in specific area. How is that different to wvw defense? The game also clearly indicates when you are in the event area with top right event msg in real time.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

How is that weird? The game constantly checks your position and relation to other assets. If we just stick to a few obvious examples in wvw: gliding area, ex warclaw mount speed, defender buff, capture rings, objective reveals.

Or an even more obvious example, player skills such as AoE which calculations is the whole reason the game lags in zerg fights. Even from a basic point of view no matter where you are looking from - the AoE checking which players are inside or the players checking if they are inside the AoE - it is a calculation that has to take place.