The Duality of New Players

[bethekey.8314]

New Player: "Hey guys, what build should I use in PvP? I don't even know enough about my own class or this mode to judge what's good. I also lose every 1v1."

Also New Player: "God hath revealed to mine eyes the Truth, which I hold above all other truths: that fights shall only occur on nodes. Fights off nodes do not exist, and are heresy. This is the way."

Who is telling them this? What causes this novice-expert disconnect in their brains?

[roederich.2716]

it's the average daily maker veteran typing "fight on point"  causes new players just push into every damage there can be inside the node and die.

teammate 3 posting "GG" after first engage and stays at spawn. teammate 4 still typing "fight on point and get out the damage!11 11111!11 !" 

teammate 5 (the new guy) is now confused "how shall i fight on the point and not be in damage?" 

teammate 1 ALT+F4 

Edited April 6 by roederich.2716

[Khalisto.5780]

They don't know how to play thief

They blow all their important cds to get to home node at start of a match

If somebody else goes home they type gg in map chat

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Idk I'm having fun winning sides 1v1, while 4v4 feeds at mid then getting yelled at because I didnt also feed

New players are great

Quote

Who is telling them this? 

It's me it's part of the hazing, the other part is ping beast while the thief is at mid

Edited April 6 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Gotejjeken.1267]

49 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Idk I'm having fun winning sides 1v1, while 4v4 feeds at mid then getting yelled at because I didnt also feed

Getting yelled at for being 'afk home' is fun too when if you leave it instantly gets decapped, and no one is capping far so they win off their home / neutral mid + kills from teammates zerging to mid.  

[Fellknight.4820]

New players have a tendency to run after the enemy and ignore the nodes altogether so I get why people would say fight on nodes to noobs. 

[Ronin.4501]

14 minutes ago, Fellknight.4820 said:

New players have a tendency to run after the enemy and ignore the nodes altogether so I get why people would say fight on nodes to noobs. 

Funny thing is OP is the one who plays how you just described. And based on when this post was written I'm the person he's complaining about. I was running on a support build (which I explained before the match began) but every time I pushed into an objective with the idea that I would heal allies around me, everyone else squirreled off in different directions. When the other team held all 3 objectives for 75% of the match I gave into frustration and just sat in the mid objective, at which point OP starts calling me out for "afking" and then complaining that I'm too busy typing to play (as though they're not familiar with the auto-run feature). Point is, support or not, I'm not going to chase after everyone on my team if they squirrel after every enemy player outside of the objectives. OP seems to be one of those players who thinks PvP is all about the "fights" and that capping/holding objectives is meaningless.

I should also mention that this was in Unranked, so take that for what you will.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Funny thing is OP is the one who plays how you just described. And based on when this post was written I'm the person he's complaining about. I was running on a support build (which I explained before the match began) but every time I pushed into an objective with the idea that I would heal allies around me, everyone else squirreled off in different directions. When the other team held all 3 objectives for 75% of the match I gave into frustration and just sat in the mid objective, at which point OP starts calling me out for "afking" and then complaining that I'm too busy typing to play (as though they're not familiar with the auto-run feature). Point is, support or not, I'm not going to chase after everyone on my team if they squirrel after every enemy player outside of the objectives. OP seems to be one of those players who thinks PvP is all about the "fights" and that capping/holding objectives is meaningless.

I should also mention that this was in Unranked, so take that for what you will.

I doubt you'll acknowledge the situation as I remember it, so debating that is pointless.

For things I can prove:

- No, the enemy team didn't hold a 3 cap for 75% of the match. The game was about 9 minutes in and ~300-300.

- You implied your frustration came primarily from being slow to rotate into fights, not the score.

- You acknowledged essentially afking on node with another person while others fought outnumbered.

It goes without saying that capping/holding objectives is not meaningless. You were doing neither.

I will also reiterate what I said in our chat before, that unranked is currently the only way to queue for conquest. If I could avoid players like you, I would, trust me.

If you'd like to go over the general logic of why camping capped nodes is bad 1) as support 2) near a major teamfight 3) with full map knowledge 4) with a second teammate also just standing on node, we can do that here. You whispered me post-game then blocked like a champion after saying conquest is not a team game mode, that you were only there for dailies, and that "no one wants to work together", when you were the one refusing to participate in the team fight. It seems you want to talk more now?

[maxwelgm.4315]

Do you have some idea of how many new players you get per match? I typically only see known faces when I queue and I had like 400 matches the last conquest season. We have a lot of veterans who make rotation mistakes and how to rotate can be non-trivial if you're not in an organized group. For instance in this very post you have said you were fighting outnumbered out of the node while two people camped a capped point so it was pretty much a choice to try pushing the enemy team instead of snowballing from the capped point itself (especially in a tied 300/300 state). Yes the support should be following the teamfights around wherever the teamfight is, but if the cause of strategy mismatch is due to someone being "new" the burden would be mostly on the veteran to adapt and overcome - or lose the match which is the other team's merit for exploiting the situation.

8 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Funny thing is OP is the one who plays how you just described. And based on when this post was written I'm the person he's complaining about. I was running on a support build (which I explained before the match began) but every time I pushed into an objective with the idea that I would heal allies around me, everyone else squirreled off in different directions. When the other team held all 3 objectives for 75% of the match I gave into frustration and just sat in the mid objective, at which point OP starts calling me out for "afking" and then complaining that I'm too busy typing to play (as though they're not familiar with the auto-run feature). Point is, support or not, I'm not going to chase after everyone on my team if they squirrel after every enemy player outside of the objectives. OP seems to be one of those players who thinks PvP is all about the "fights" and that capping/holding objectives is meaningless.

I should also mention that this was in Unranked, so take that for what you will.

Oh...yeah, that's what the 3rd topic venting some grievance from a single match coming from the same person? The other two had Youtube videos to call out hacks which is OK I suppose but then it's done twice for some reason. As OP already responded to this post, the topic is pretty much done because it was just some personal grievance, I guess just pay attention to the ratio of sarcasm to actual argumentation in the first post before I even read the rest next time.

[Kuya.6495]

12 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Idk I'm having fun winning sides 1v1, while 4v4 feeds at mid then getting yelled at because I didnt also feed

New players are great

It's me it's part of the hazing, the other part is ping beast while the thief is at mid

Bonus points if you stall a 2v1 at far and they still wipe at mid and accuse you of throwing for going far. 

I was shook from the audacity 

Edited April 6 by Kuya.6495

[Ronin.4501]

10 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I doubt you'll acknowledge the situation as I remember it, so debating that is pointless.

For things I can prove:

- No, the enemy team didn't hold a 3 cap for 75% of the match. The game was about 9 minutes in and ~300-300.

- You implied your frustration came primarily from being slow to rotate into fights, not the score.

- You acknowledged essentially afking on node with another person while others fought outnumbered.

It goes without saying that capping/holding objectives is not meaningless. You were doing neither.

I will also reiterate what I said in our chat before, that unranked is currently the only way to queue for conquest. If I could avoid players like you, I would, trust me.

If you'd like to go over the general logic of why camping capped nodes is bad 1) as support 2) near a major teamfight 3) with full map knowledge 4) with a second teammate also just standing on node, we can do that here. You whispered me post-game then blocked like a champion after saying conquest is not a team game mode, that you were only there for dailies, and that "no one wants to work together", when you were the one refusing to participate in the team fight. It seems you want to talk more now?

First off, I agree. If I could avoid players like you, I would as well. Second, at no point did I say conquest is not a team game mode, I said that players such as yourself play only for yourself and not as a team, which I stand by. And no, I don't particularly want to talk to you, as it was rather clear in our previous conversation that you can only see things from your perspective so there was no point in continuing the conversation. I only chose to whisper you after the match because you went on your little rant at the end of the match. And finally, yes, I was only out there for dailies because after years of playing in this game mode I grew tired of the toxicity that comes from players like you; that fact that you were so upset after the match that you felt the need to post here on the forums about it only furthers that conclusion.

[Tycura.1982]

Depends on the map, team composition, enemy composition. Sometimes playing on node is beneficial. Your DH trap spam does little good if the team fight is actively avoiding the area you trap spammed. Additionally, the support can't support you if you run away from it. Conversely, it does little good to team fight, into an enemy team fighter composition, on node, with your team composition of 3 roamers, a support, and a side noder. Unless you're fighting over bell in which case you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Picking and choosing your composition/fights/rotations is a big part of winning a game. If fighting on node is the best option, guess where you should be fighting. 

Edited April 6 by Tycura.1982

[lotus.5672]

13 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Funny thing is OP is the one who plays how you just described. And based on when this post was written I'm the person he's complaining about. I was running on a support build (which I explained before the match began) but every time I pushed into an objective with the idea that I would heal allies around me, everyone else squirreled off in different directions. When the other team held all 3 objectives for 75% of the match I gave into frustration and just sat in the mid objective, at which point OP starts calling me out for "afking" and then complaining that I'm too busy typing to play (as though they're not familiar with the auto-run feature). Point is, support or not, I'm not going to chase after everyone on my team if they squirrel after every enemy player outside of the objectives. OP seems to be one of those players who thinks PvP is all about the "fights" and that capping/holding objectives is meaningless.

I should also mention that this was in Unranked, so take that for what you will.

healing and chasing allies is literally your role, if you dont know how to play support then dont play it

[Ronin.4501]

1 hour ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Depends on the map, team composition, enemy composition. Sometimes playing on node is beneficial. Your DH trap spam does little good if the team fight is actively avoiding the area you trap spammed. Additionally, the support can't support you if you run away from it. Conversely, it does little good to team fight, into an enemy team fighter composition, on node, with your team composition of 3 roamers, a support, and a side noder. Unless you're fighting over bell in which case you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Picking and choosing your composition/fights/rotations is a big part of winning a game. If fighting on node is the best option, guess where you should be fighting. 

THANK YOU!!! Someone who finally gets it. And so long as there are no predetermined roles entering into any given match, it's a total crapshoot as to which role you're going to end up playing, dependent on how your teammates play and what classes/specs you've chosen to play.

[Ronin.4501]

24 minutes ago, lotus.5672 said:

healing and chasing allies is literally your role, if you dont know how to play support then dont play it

I play a healer just fine. But when all 4 of my teammates spend the entire match chasing enemy players and no one wants to cap an objective while the enemy team has 2 players capping objectives, the match is lost no matter what I do.

Edited April 6 by Ronin.4501

[bethekey.8314]

Sorry, but to me this is fundamentally an argument of rigidity vs flexibility in decision making. If you refuse to consider situations for what they are and just say "fight on nodes" while letting your teammates die nearby, you're wrong.

1 hour ago, lotus.5672 said:

healing and chasing allies is literally your role, if you dont know how to play support then dont play it

Yes, support's primary value is in fights. He was not playing support well in this game.

2 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Second, at no point did I say conquest is not a team game mode, I said that players such as yourself play only for yourself and not as a team, which I stand by

Your exact quote was, "It's not a team game when no one wants to work together". As you sat 2v0 on mid letting teammates nearby die. As support. If you can't see the contradiction there, it's pointless.

2 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

that fact that you were so upset after the match that you felt the need to post here on the forums about it only furthers that conclusion.

I think it's a worthwhile discussion. Your continued defense of bad play and its general prevalence in matches hurts the mode.

1 hour ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Depends on the map, team composition, enemy composition. Sometimes playing on node is beneficial. Your DH trap spam does little good if the team fight is actively avoiding the area you trap spammed. Additionally, the support can't support you if you run away from it. Conversely, it does little good to team fight, into an enemy team fighter composition, on node, with your team composition of 3 roamers, a support, and a side noder. Unless you're fighting over bell in which case you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Picking and choosing your composition/fights/rotations is a big part of winning a game. If fighting on node is the best option, guess where you should be fighting. 

By saying "it depends", you already go against what @Ronin.4501 and many other players think/practice. No one is arguing against "sometimes playing on node is beneficial".

You can't always control the situation and you have to adapt. That includes joining sub-optimal fights started by other teammates to ensure there's a chance you can win. Otherwise, a snowball can start, the people rigidly sitting on points will get outnumbered themselves and the effect cascades until you regroup.

[Koensol.5860]

1 hour ago, Ronin.4501 said:

I play a healer just fine. But when all 4 of my teammates spend the entire match chasing enemy players and no one wants to cap an objective while the enemy team has 2 players capping objectives, the match is lost no matter what I do.

You know that in higher tier matches getting kills is much more of a priority than capping. Guess what, capping is easier when the enemy is dead. And you get points for the kills as well. If your random ranked team happens to be a roamer comp, you can try and heal them on point all you want, but they will lose against a team with teamfight presence. This is what players like you don't get. You solo Q as support (which is generally a very bad idea because of this reason exactly) and cry when there is no one to support. A roamers job is literally to chase people around the map getting kills, in addition to getting decaps and the occasional full cap. Your job as a support is to try as best you can to rotate into the fight you think you could help best. The fact you had the experience isn't because of roamers chasing kills, it is because you chose to solo Q with the least flexible role (support) which got you into a suboptimal group comp. 

It's not all black and white. Some games you will get massacred if you keep going for teamfights, even if you have a support. In that case it is much better to try and rotate fast and try to pick off moving targets and winning points that way. So get off your high horse and be more flexible. A bit of advice, stop playing support in solo Q. It sucks most of the time as you can't take on any other role than that usually.

[Flowki.7194]

I played a lot of support/hybrid, and would mark a thief that got on mid, so that team mates would attack to pressure it away, then I would put mark back to original target. This rarely worked, people either ignored the thief (especially DE), or they would chase it to god knows where after mark swap, so we lost pressure on point. In the end I just stopped marking thieves and pressured them off point/area myself, being some of the reason I played hybrid and never full support. Its a chaotic game that puts newbs in with more experianced players, all standing in AOE on point, or fighting 1M off point while its being capped. MMR.

[Ronin.4501]

51 minutes ago, Koensol.5860 said:

You know that in higher tier matches getting kills is much more of a priority than capping. Guess what, capping is easier when the enemy is dead. And you get points for the kills as well. If your random ranked team happens to be a roamer comp, you can try and heal them on point all you want, but they will lose against a team with teamfight presence. This is what players like you don't get. You solo Q as support (which is generally a very bad idea because of this reason exactly) and cry when there is no one to support. A roamers job is literally to chase people around the map getting kills, in addition to getting decaps and the occasional full cap. Your job as a support is to try as best you can to rotate into the fight you think you could help best. The fact you had the experience isn't because of roamers chasing kills, it is because you chose to solo Q with the least flexible role (support) which got you into a suboptimal group comp. 

It's not all black and white. Some games you will get massacred if you keep going for teamfights, even if you have a support. In that case it is much better to try and rotate fast and try to pick off moving targets and winning points that way. So get off your high horse and be more flexible. A bit of advice, stop playing support in solo Q. It sucks most of the time as you can't take on any other role than that usually.

Except we're talking about an Unranked match here, where a good 50% of the players, myself included, are only there for dailies. And yesterday's daily for me was top stat. How do I guarantee myself a top stat in a single match? By playing support/heals. That being said I do try to give a good faith effort to work with my team, but every so often you have that one player who starts screaming and yelling because the other teammates aren't conforming to their play style. OP claims I sat "afk" the whole match because I sat in mid objective for about 15-20 seconds at one point. Do I claim to be the best player in PvP? Hell no. But I was also focused on helping the other members of my team in fights(which was difficult at best because they're on much more mobile classes than I was and they kept squirreling off) because quite frankly they were getting wrecked on their own while OP seemed to handle their fights much better, which according to OP, makes me worthless. But if you're going to take PvP that seriously, maybe go play in Ranked where a larger majority of the players are there because they love the gamemode, not because they're there for dailies. Expecting everyone in Unranked to take the gamemode as seriously as you do is an exercise in folly, and then both pitching a fit in team chat and later posting about it here is just sad.

Edited April 6 by Ronin.4501

[Koensol.5860]

9 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Except we're talking about an Unranked match here, where a good 50% of the players, myself included, are only there for dailies. And yesterday's daily for me was top stat. How do I guarantee myself a top stat in a single match? By playing support/heals. That being said I do try to give a good faith effort to work with my team, but every so often you have that one player who starts screaming and yelling because the other teammates aren't conforming to their play style. OP claims I sat "afk" the whole match because I sat in mid objective for about 15-20 seconds at one point. Do I claim to be the best player in PvP? Hell no. But I was also focused on helping the other members of my team in fights(which was difficult at best because they're on much more mobile classes than I was and they kept squirreling off) because quite frankly they were getting wrecked on their own while OP seemed to handle their fights much better, which according to OP, makes me worthless. But if you're going to take PvP that seriously, maybe go play in Ranked where a larger majority of the players are there because they love the gamemode, not because they're there for dailies. Expecting everyone in Unranked to take the gamemode as seriously as you do is an exercise in folly, and then both pitching a fit in team chat and later posting about it here is just sad.

What I said goes for unranked too, it makes no difference since randomness is again the factor. You say playing healer makes it easier to top stats. Maybe, but it will overall make your experience a lot more crappy for aforementioned reasons. But I'll agree with you that excessive complaining in unranked is uncalled for. But I also agree with the OP, that shouting "fight on point" is a huge noob trap. You should always adapt. 

[bethekey.8314]

16 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

Except we're talking about an Unranked match here, where a good 50% of the players, myself included, are only there for dailies.

Stop ruining PvP with PvE motivations. Be a good teammate and learn the basics of how to play / don't force rigid, incorrect PvP ideologies onto others.

Unranked is the only way to play conquest right now. This is the 3rd time.

16 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

every so often you have that one player who starts screaming and yelling because the other teammates aren't conforming to their play style. OP claims I sat "afk" the whole match because I sat in mid objective for about 15-20 seconds at one point.

Stop exaggerating the situation for pity. This is about a particular instance, not the whole match, where you made a bad play. You keep doubling down.

16 minutes ago, Ronin.4501 said:

But I was also focused on helping the other members of my team in fights(which was difficult at best because they're on much more mobile classes than I was and they kept squirreling off) because quite frankly they were getting wrecked on their own while OP seemed to handle their fights much better, which according to OP, makes me worthless

No one else was fighting and you were 2v0 on already capped mid, letting us get outnumbered nearby. You literally admit this.

Edited April 6 by bethekey.8314

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:29 AM, Kuya.6495 said:

Bonus points if you stall a 2v1 at far and they still wipe at mid and accuse you of throwing for going far. 

I was shook from the audacity 

This is the story of my life 😭

You can just say you're mad you couldnt win the 4v3 or that I'm not two people, its okay to be honest

[Jedrik.3109]

I dislike all of you. Pls unistall. 

[arazoth.7290]

5 hours ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

I dislike all of you. Pls unistall. 

•gives snicker•

[pukish.5784]

fight on point guy, afk on node guy is majority now since End of Dragons expansion. our stress level is incredible.