Does anyone actually enjoy providing Quick or Alac on Ele?

[Mount Mazama.2917]

Tempest is boring and in direct contrast to the idea behind playing Elementalist or even this game honestly. Overloads suck and are not fun or engaging game play, they are some of the longest casts in the entire game and on a class built around using as many skills as possible to fill your needs. Catalyst is just plain not fun mostly due to the energy system, or more so the fact that energy can not be gained while a sphere is out. That is so cumbersome and feels awful to play. I would honestly say Cata is more fun than Tempest but the I don't even think it is because of energy and needing to to have everyone positioned and staying in the orb field where tempest can be more flexible during the overload. I can't think of any other boon supports in the game that are as lame as these two. It's almost like they only want Eles playing Weaver because it's only fun one out of them all but no Q/A because DPS even though it's not even that much better at pure dps than the other two just more fun and true to the base spec. I started on Ele and want to play Ele, have most of my time on Ele.

When my wife started playing the game I decided it made the most sense for us to play Quickness and Alac providers so joining groups would be easy and worst case I would swap to a dps spec if both were not needed. Since this time I have stopped playing Ele for the most part because why would I want to play quick or alac ele while other classes do indeed exist. It's sad honestly. Tempest isn't even bad it is just is so boring being locked into these long overloads doing nothing else. Cata is bad especially considering Herald exists, but I would rather play any other quick provider over it.

Anyone actually see enjoyment in these specs that maybe I am missing?

[Chyro.1462]

I enjoy Tempest be it as alac heal, alac dps or pure dps.
I don't like Catalyst cause it feels too awkward to play with the energy management, and don't like the dual-attuning of weaver.

Something being fun or boring is very subjective.

[Sweetbread.3678]

Tempest needs it's boon application range at least doubled. I also find it boring as kitten, but it's more-or-less the low intensity Ele spec and that fills a niche that certain players want, so I'm w/e about it. Not everything has to be for me.

Quick Cata's actually really engaging imo, and I will die on the hill that playing a boon support should actually involve working to apply those boons properly. It's only real issues are that Herald is an overloaded balance monstrosity and the game has 0 consistent class design philosophy when it comes to effort/risk vs. reward (or consistent vs. inconsistent gameplay if you want to frame it another way). 

Like in a game that's design actually made sense, boon specs with hard to pull off mechanics would be rewarded for perfectly executing those mechanics with a natural 100% boon uptime (that could then have boon duration optionally invested into further to balance out the playstyle's inherent inconsistency and make up for gaps when a rotation gets Fd up or whatever). While the boon mechanics that are pretty much impossible to mess up would require heavy investment into boon duration in order to reach 100% uptime as a way to balance out their application mechanic being so consistent. But in GW2 (for god knows what reason) it ends up working the exact opposite way; much harder to execute mechanics have inherently lower boon uptime than mechanics that are virtually impossible to fail; it ends up just being this double whammy of stupid where you're not just not rewarded for working harder, you're actively punished for it.

[crosknight.3041]

i like tempest, but dislike how alac trait directly competes with the most consistant healing output trait ele has, as well as the alac being on the most interruptible skills in the game
catalyst energy mechanic ruins the entire thing and you're constantly struggling to gain energy.

both are pretty flawed in their iterations as there are specs that are just better at providing those boons (either being able to provide it more consistently, better access to the boon itself, or able to move with the group as needed), some of which require significantly less effort to do so.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Tempest needs it's boon application range at least doubled. I also find it boring as kitten, but it's more-or-less the low intensity Ele spec and that fills a niche that certain players want, so I'm w/e about it. Not everything has to be for me.

Quick Cata's actually really engaging imo, and I will die on the hill that playing a boon support should actually involve working to apply those boons properly. It's only real issues are that Herald is an overloaded balance monstrosity and the game has 0 consistent class design philosophy when it comes to effort/risk vs. reward (or consistent vs. inconsistent gameplay if you want to frame it another way). 

Like in a game that's design actually made sense, boon specs with hard to pull off mechanics would be rewarded for perfectly executing those mechanics with a natural 100% boon uptime (that could then have boon duration optionally invested into further to balance out the playstyle's inherent inconsistency and make up for gaps when a rotation gets Fd up or whatever). While the boon mechanics that are pretty much impossible to mess up would require heavy investment into boon duration in order to reach 100% uptime as a way to balance out their application mechanic being so consistent. But in GW2 (for god knows what reason) it ends up working the exact opposite way; much harder to execute mechanics have inherently lower boon uptime than mechanics that are virtually impossible to fail; it ends up just being this double whammy of stupid where you're not just not rewarded for working harder, you're actively punished for it.

Yeah, quickherald is... a bit too easy for how effective it is.

I'm in the minority that preferred when it was linked to Draconic Echo. When the change was made, the utilitarian objection that was raised is that if you needed all your energy in both legends to maintain quickness, you didn't have energy available for other things a quick support might be asked to provide like stability. So naturally ArenaNet responded by just buffing the duration so you can easily maintain quickness with only one legend's energy

[zeyeti.8347]

Tempest need to overload , meawhile scourge push buttons and gets alac without any cast time (or little with shades) , renegade the same : 1 button , 0 cast time , 100% alac . Chrono also  the same : shatters -> boom alac , some fantasma with 1/2 sec cast time and done , 100% alac. Tempest clearly the underdog of alacrity support meta , numbers don't lie , very few ppl seems to enjoy it , meanwhile chrono , scourge have a staggering playrate , it's a no brainer.

And catalyst , well.... i just like to compare catalyst to herald , so there is no comment to add at how bad catalyst is.

4 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

Tempest needs it's boon application range at least doubled. I also find it boring as kitten, but it's more-or-less the low intensity Ele spec and that fills a niche that certain players want, so I'm w/e about it. Not everything has to be for me.

Quick Cata's actually really engaging imo, and I will die on the hill that playing a boon support should actually involve working to apply those boons properly. It's only real issues are that Herald is an overloaded balance monstrosity and the game has 0 consistent class design philosophy when it comes to effort/risk vs. reward (or consistent vs. inconsistent gameplay if you want to frame it another way). 

Like in a game that's design actually made sense, boon specs with hard to pull off mechanics would be rewarded for perfectly executing those mechanics with a natural 100% boon uptime (that could then have boon duration optionally invested into further to balance out the playstyle's inherent inconsistency and make up for gaps when a rotation gets Fd up or whatever). While the boon mechanics that are pretty much impossible to mess up would require heavy investment into boon duration in order to reach 100% uptime as a way to balance out their application mechanic being so consistent. But in GW2 (for god knows what reason) it ends up working the exact opposite way; much harder to execute mechanics have inherently lower boon uptime than mechanics that are virtually impossible to fail; it ends up just being this double whammy of stupid where you're not just not rewarded for working harder, you're actively punished for it.

Cannot agree more on that , more effort should equall more efficiency , but in this game it's more effort equall higher chance to fail at your role.

Edited June 17 by zeyeti.8347

[crosknight.3041]

half of alac tempests alac also requires you to complete the long channel time of the overloads. if you get interrupted for whatever reason you lose all of that alac.

quick cata almost entirely relies on being able to hit many many times in a short duration to generate energy (kinda the same issue alac willbender has).

both of these are major shortcomings that need to be fixed to make them more reliable. such as adding energy gain on utility skills for cata, or small alac generation on auras for tempest.

[Atoclone.4810]

Yes

[Markus.6415]

I actually learned to enjoy Catalyst over the years. I had my big struggles with as (same as Anet had obviously) but now it's my prefered powerquick spec. Maybe it's because I always migrate towards builds that aren't very popular and I've been an Elementalist main since 2012.
Catalysts energy generation works... on many boss encounters, but sometimes can get quite frustrating if you have to do something out of the rotation loop. In terms of raw dps i feel like it can compete very well with herald, but the wonky spec mechanic is definately the biggest downside why barely anyone plays it.

But tempest being blamed as the boring low intensity ele spec here?... I don't know, i believe it is the coolest of them all, but it's overloads have definately been downgraded too much for what they actually should be. I play a full viper, scepter/warhorn condi alac and I enjoy that. Getting the overloads interrupted doesn't accur that often to be honest.

Conclusion is: Yes the boon generation isn't that well designed, but i definately have fun playing them.

[Codename T.2847]

Catalyst (qdps Cata) ,when I played it at least, was very fast and terribly unforgiving. Maybe it was just new spec bias but I never really liked how catalyst worked in PvE, much less now with the changes to SpecSpheres made a few months ago, with the shorter quickness duration and all. Now in WvW I always found it a great spec, although, admittedly, it always carried my sorry āss into winning fights back before I got very good on Core ele and good enough on Weaver/tempest and started playing those instead. 

Tempest I've always found a great support, and have consistently played it in Fractals since the dusk of the Druid/Chrono days, although it's now a bit outclassed by every other healer in the game -except for maybe Specter or Scrapper. But the good news is it's now probably in the best and most useful state it has ever been, with the alac duration increase and Staff QoL updates, and the future changes to Air Overload fury granting will make it even better : D 

TLDR : Cata in PvE is dogwater (quickness application is janky as ever), in WvW/PvP it is still gud. Tempest is the underdog champion of PvE support builds imo, with a nice and lengthy supply of alac and other nice utility depending on weapon choice, and will only get better with time ^^ (Added fury soon!!) 

Edited June 17 by Codename T.2847

[vardeleanu.8972]

I do. It's fun once you get used to it, granted I only play healboon builds so I don't have to worry about staying in an attunement 2 more seconds for energy/delayed overload and losing 15k dps. They could both be done better obviously, with tempest having alacrity on auras instead and catalyst energy being thrown in the trash, but I think that as it is it's alright for now.

Edited June 18 by vardeleanu.8972

[mirage.8046]

when I see alac tempest or quick catalyst, I realize how spoiled and easy quickness Herald has with supplying boons and having 600 radii. Tempest has to channel long overloads for alacrity pulses, and if interrupted, everyone misses out on the remaining pulses obviously. Getting stability elsewhere is crucial for channeling overloads (I don't take the swiftness + stability trait because my build can't afford to take that). Catalyst has to pay attention to its tiny energy bar that's so insulting to all Catalyst players IMO. 

I don't mind having to build for the synergy or supply tons of boons. It irks me when the inconsistency of support builds isn't applied to all of them for no reason. It doesn't help that tempest has to twist its arms for sacrificing healing with auras for alacrity on overloads. One can tie the two together to make Tempest more natural to supply both. Alac aura tempest is by far one of my favorite supports to play, though. Everything flows like water ngl. (Run tempestuous aria + lucid singularity + powerful aura and you'll see what I mean.)

[Bunny.9834]

Alac Tempest is alright after they give Alac on Pulse. Not the most fun but it's doable. 

Quick Cata on the other hand is probably one of the worst ways to give quickness.  

How can you have something like Herald exist, who can pump perma quickness with one button and needs 0 concentration? 

Then have this piano gameplay with ele with subpar quickness uptime?  


Cata's main problem with this energy management is the fact that it pauses the build up while you have a sphere on. They need to just get rid of that so you have constant energy gain even with the deployed spheres. 

Edited June 19 by Bunny.9834

[Codename T.2847]

6 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

when I see alac tempest or quick catalyst, I realize how spoiled and easy quickness Herald has with supplying boons and having 600 radii. Tempest has to channel long overloads for alacrity pulses, and if interrupted, everyone misses out on the remaining pulses obviously. Getting stability elsewhere is crucial for channeling overloads (I don't take the swiftness + stability trait because my build can't afford to take that). Catalyst has to pay attention to its tiny energy bar that's so insulting to all Catalyst players IMO. 

I don't mind having to build for the synergy or supply tons of boons. It irks me when the inconsistency of support builds isn't applied to all of them for no reason. It doesn't help that tempest has to twist its arms for sacrificing healing with auras for alacrity on overloads. One can tie the two together to make Tempest more natural to supply both. Alac aura tempest is by far one of my favorite supports to play, though. Everything flows like water ngl. (Run tempestuous aria + lucid singularity + powerful aura and you'll see what I mean.)

Yes you can afford to take that, and you should. Believe me, having my overloads always go through saved my alac uptime lots of times, compared to the (still great but not as impactful) perma regen and vigor

[Markus.6415]

10 hours ago, mirage.8046 said:

when I see alac tempest or quick catalyst, I realize how spoiled and easy quickness Herald has with supplying boons and having 600 radii. Tempest has to channel long overloads for alacrity pulses, and if interrupted, everyone misses out on the remaining pulses obviously. Getting stability elsewhere is crucial for channeling overloads (I don't take the swiftness + stability trait because my build can't afford to take that). Catalyst has to pay attention to its tiny energy bar that's so insulting to all Catalyst players IMO. 

I don't mind having to build for the synergy or supply tons of boons. It irks me when the inconsistency of support builds isn't applied to all of them for no reason. It doesn't help that tempest has to twist its arms for sacrificing healing with auras for alacrity on overloads. One can tie the two together to make Tempest more natural to supply both. Alac aura tempest is by far one of my favorite supports to play, though. Everything flows like water ngl. (Run tempestuous aria + lucid singularity + powerful aura and you'll see what I mean.)

The big problem for healtempest will always be the lack of healing during your overloads in every attunement except water (and to be fair, overloading water is cutting you off from your continous healingn source too long that you definately shouldn't do that). Therefor the raw healing output is so low compared to other healers and overloading an attunement feels very risky sometimes. Boneskinner is a good exsample and a big struggle when i play tempest. One of the big upsides though is the rezzing utility skill and it's arcane trait with rezzing geyser

[soulknight.9620]

Heal alac tempests biggest problem is it is heavy rotation focused. You have loads of stuff for variety of situations, but you do not have access to them on demand. You just go through your rotation regardless of whats happening on the battlefield and IF you are lucky you would be in the right attunement to throw in a cc or two and so on. IF you are not lucky then continue your scripted rotation. 

Qcata... too unrealiable. With every phasing boss you have problems. 

Its not that both dont work or anything. Ive been playing both for quite some time and my muscle memeory is doing most of the work, but its not fun. Anything both builds can do other classes could do better and easier. 

[Jski.6180]

Any class that give out quickness and alacrity also benefit from such effects much like classes that stab support. It makes them meta. Truth be told having these buffs do make the game more enjoyable and with out them the game is less enjoyable. In some ways classes feel like they need these boons to feel better over all witch is odd as you cant get these boons even as self only on most of the ele classes. Weaver needs self quickness and alacrity so badly.

[CETheLucid.3964]

On 6/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, Mount Mazama.2917 said:

Does anyone actually enjoy being part of the meta and welcome in group content?

It's alright I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Catalyst hurts my hands.  That's my biggest issue with it.  The second is how unkind it is for mobile fights.  

For Tempest, my problem isn't the method of gaining alacrity.  Overloading is pretty easy to handle, albeit with a heavy time cost.  The issue I have is that, without SotO, there's no good weapon to use.  Snowcrow's has no power build recommendations, and their condi builds both use pistol.  Out of the three vanilla options available to tempests (scepter, dagger, staff), the only one that can sort-of be worked around is scepter.  All of the old builds use a version of arcane that just doesn't exist anymore, so those aren't much help.  I'm on my own for all this, so if I wanted to play it again I'd have to test both power and condi methods, using various rotations and methods until I could find one that worked.  That's a lot of effort for it all, and I just don't want to bother with it.  

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/19/2024 at 12:54 PM, Bunny.9834 said:

Quick Cata on the other hand is probably one of the worst ways to give quickness.  

Mukluk recently concluded a test run of all the boondps specs, and I think quickcata was the only one that he refused to take into a group because after five hours of practice, he still wasn't able to reliably upkeep quickness.