Revenant Spear Needs Fixing

[Yasai.3549]

57 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

I don't like slowness and having only torment for damage, but ground targeting can be very strong, especially if animations are faster. 

As it is now it is PvE exclusive weapon just like scepter. 

Alternatively, make Spear evolve an old concept we already have: power scaling delayed damage.

We already have this with Sword auto chain 3 where it leaves a mark on a target that explodes a moment later. Go all in with that concept with Power for Revenant, giving the first "Power Damage Over Time" weapon.

When you throw your spear autos, it stacks up and consumes itself tick by tick and deals small chipping power damage over time.

Skill 2 focuses a flurry of Spear strikes at the target area through the ground after a short cast time, inflicting multiple stacks. 

Skill 3 Evades backwards, leaving mines that inflict multiple stacks per trigger.

Skill 4 pulls enemies together and immobilizes them.

Then finally with Abyssal Raze, it's a "finisher" skill that when you cast on a target area will mark the area that then detonates and consumes all the stacks in a burst. This delay is enough for the skill that you can just lower the skill animation cast to 0.75 seconds. When you trigger a total threshold of stacks, this ability has no cooldown and you can cast again.

So if you manage to lock enemies down and hit them with cleaving melee autos, 2 and Mines, you can start spamming 5 on them over and over to burst them. 

[Tobias.4975]

1 minute ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Alternatively, make Spear evolve an old concept we already have: power scaling delayed damage.

We already have this with Sword auto chain 3 where it leaves a mark on a target that explodes a moment later. Go all in with that concept with Power for Revenant, giving the first "Power Damage Over Time" weapon.

When you throw your spear autos, it stacks up and consumes itself tick by tick and deals small chipping power damage over time.

Skill 2 focuses a flurry of Spear strikes at the target area through the ground after a short cast time, inflicting multiple stacks. 

Skill 3 Evades backwards, leaving mines that inflict multiple stacks per trigger.

Skill 4 pulls enemies together and immobilizes them.

Then finally with Abyssal Raze, it's a "finisher" skill that when you cast on a target area will mark the area that then detonates and consumes all the stacks in a burst. This delay is enough for the skill that you can just lower the skill animation cast to 0.75 seconds. When you trigger a total threshold of stacks, this ability has no cooldown and you can cast again.

So if you manage to lock enemies down and hit them with cleaving melee autos, 2 and Mines, you can start spamming 5 on them over and over to burst them. 

Sounds interessting. But then Skill 2 needs additional shadowspikes striking from the ground as follow up and Skill 4 needs abyssial shackels on last puls.

Skill 5 should be (nearly) instant, with a 0,75 - (1) second delay. 

I realy like your idea, there is a lot of potential.👍

[Polar.8634]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Alternatively, make Spear evolve an old concept we already have: power scaling delayed damage.

We already have this with Sword auto chain 3 where it leaves a mark on a target that explodes a moment later. Go all in with that concept with Power for Revenant, giving the first "Power Damage Over Time" weapon.

When you throw your spear autos, it stacks up and consumes itself tick by tick and deals small chipping power damage over time.

Skill 2 focuses a flurry of Spear strikes at the target area through the ground after a short cast time, inflicting multiple stacks. 

Skill 3 Evades backwards, leaving mines that inflict multiple stacks per trigger.

Skill 4 pulls enemies together and immobilizes them.

Then finally with Abyssal Raze, it's a "finisher" skill that when you cast on a target area will mark the area that then detonates and consumes all the stacks in a burst. This delay is enough for the skill that you can just lower the skill animation cast to 0.75 seconds. When you trigger a total threshold of stacks, this ability has no cooldown and you can cast again.

So if you manage to lock enemies down and hit them with cleaving melee autos, 2 and Mines, you can start spamming 5 on them over and over to burst them. 

While your ideas look valid to me, I don't mind skills themselves as they are now, just wish animations were faster and more condis applied.

I like a lot spear being hybrid damage so I could use it in more builds unlike scepter which can be used in like 2,5 builds and it is optional in any of them.

If animations and condis are fixed I can see spear usable in any DPS or support DPS build, group or solo play. If it is not fixed, then it would only be used in PvE instanced play, essentially golem killing most times, and maaaybe wvw zerging(we still need to see if those animations lock you from moving, and power coefficients). 

[Frozey.8513]

For a weapon  that can be used both melee and ranged in a meaningful way I think 600 range is justified, and I'm very excited to see it in action.

Other than that I do agree with points others have made about there needing to be more even condition spread, rather than all eggs in one basket with torment. Otherwise hoping that spear won't feel as slow as people are worried about now when we get to try it out. They did Fix Necro swords when they came out too slow, so should that be the case I believe we can get Rev spear faster too if it really feels like it 🙂

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

I'm going to be real; I feel the devs only put things together for revs now with no actual rhyme or reason, or respect for the lore of the class anymore. I don't get this shadowy spear non-sense, I mean I expected the range at this point because doing things wrongly seems to be the MO they are going for with rev since SotO now.

But the fact that Archemerous, you know the SPEAR GUY of the revenant is right there and they go for this shadowy stuff. Never mind the constant need to maintain a singular buff over and over again just to make the spear viable.

The scepter was already poorly designed and thought out for revs, and it needed lots of love if not an absolute rework, but the spear now for Rev just annoys me even more. It should have been designed with Archemerous in mind, and this constantly needing to buff up makes my wrist hurt thinking about it, and this whatever this mine dash thing is. Doesn't even get the cool effect of bow of throwing into the void to spawn portal or anything, just a mass blob that looks like it was just tossed out there to toss it out.

I am massively disappointed, I knew it would be a condi weapon, which revs need, but yet again another bloody ranged weapon and they are talking about making it range 900. They really are demonstrating they aren't really paying attention to revenant mechanics, their own designs, or even caring about the lore they've established. No reason to make these effects Mallyx based instead of Archemerous, no reason not to have the spear be calling on Archemerous. Instead we just get amorphous blobs I could design in After Effects in about 5 minutes using basic stencils.

Edited June 22 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Going to add on, why is Vindicator not being prioritized with this and given a buff to spear? Seriously, ANet you are dropping the ball with this.

[Malus.2184]

My main issue with the spear is that ANet tried to make it an alternative short bow when it should have been an alternative greatsword.

1. Speed up all the animations. Right now they have the velocity of a sloth stuck in cement.

2. Rework the whole thing so it gives multiple condis because one condi in PvP and WvW is indeed worthless.

3. Either give it 900 range or make it a melee weapon. 600 range is a weird and useless range.

Idea for rework

Skill 1: AA chain, if only melee have it apply 1 Torment on the first attack. 1 Burning on the second. 1 Burning and Torment on the third.

Skill 2: Wide slash that applies Burning, and Torment, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 3: A rush that applies Weakness and Chlled, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 4. A block/parry, channelled ability, each block/parry affects Skill 5.

Skill 5.  The big one, ammunition and cooldown, and applies more Burning and Torment in the area hit.

We only have one ranged power weapon, thus we also only need one ranged condi weapon. This should be a melee-based condi weapon. Right now you have the greatsword pairing well with the sword and with mace/axe practically being a set of one weapon we need another to go with that. This way it would be mace/axe paired with the spear.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

8 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

My main issue with the spear is that ANet tried to make it an alternative short bow when it should have been an alternative greatsword.

1. Speed up all the animations. Right now they have the velocity of a sloth stuck in cement.

2. Rework the whole thing so it gives multiple condis because one condi in PvP and WvW is indeed worthless.

3. Either give it 900 range or make it a melee weapon. 600 range is a weird and useless range.

Idea for rework

Skill 1: AA chain, if only melee have it apply 1 Torment on the first attack. 1 Burning on the second. 1 Burning and Torment on the third.

Skill 2: Wide slash that applies Burning, and Torment, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 3: A rush that applies Weakness and Chlled, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 4. A block/parry, channelled ability, each block/parry affects Skill 5.

Skill 5.  The big one, ammunition and cooldown, and applies more Burning and Torment in the area hit.

We only have one ranged power weapon, thus we also only need one ranged condi weapon. This should be a melee-based condi weapon. Right now you have the greatsword pairing well with the sword and with mace/axe practically being a set of one weapon we need another to go with that. This way it would be mace/axe paired with the spear.

It should be melee, with a ranged throw attack that takes us into melee. This should be capitalizing on Vindicator the most.

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

13 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

My main issue with the spear is that ANet tried to make it an alternative short bow when it should have been an alternative greatsword.

1. Speed up all the animations. Right now they have the velocity of a sloth stuck in cement.

2. Rework the whole thing so it gives multiple condis because one condi in PvP and WvW is indeed worthless.

3. Either give it 900 range or make it a melee weapon. 600 range is a weird and useless range.

Idea for rework

Skill 1: AA chain, if only melee have it apply 1 Torment on the first attack. 1 Burning on the second. 1 Burning and Torment on the third.

Skill 2: Wide slash that applies Burning, and Torment, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 3: A rush that applies Weakness and Chlled, and does something to SKill 5.

Skill 4. A block/parry, channelled ability, each block/parry affects Skill 5.

Skill 5.  The big one, ammunition and cooldown, and applies more Burning and Torment in the area hit.

We only have one ranged power weapon, thus we also only need one ranged condi weapon. This should be a melee-based condi weapon. Right now you have the greatsword pairing well with the sword and with mace/axe practically being a set of one weapon we need another to go with that. This way it would be mace/axe paired with the spear.

I'm not a huge fan of advocating for full reworks because it's just not feasible at this point. This isn't an engie shortbow situation. What you suggested also sounds literally like Greatsword skills but condi, which isn't terribly interesting.

I think the range component should still be viable, just make it at least 900. Having spears being a hybrid between melee and range is good and gives it a unique niche.

 

[Zebulous.2934]

So, were the devs only balancing spear skills against other classes' spear skills? 

They didn't compare Revnant spear skills to the other weapons Revenant currently has access too?

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 hour ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

I'm not a huge fan of advocating for full reworks because it's just not feasible at this point. This isn't an engie shortbow situation. What you suggested also sounds literally like Greatsword skills but condi, which isn't terribly interesting.

I think the range component should still be viable, just make it at least 900. Having spears being a hybrid between melee and range is good and gives it a unique niche.

 

Yea hard disagree. With the expansion around the end of summer till launch it is the perfect time to get it reworked. 900 range doesn't fill a niche we don't already have. Bow is already in that range category and the component that makes this terrible is the constantly needing to spam the 5 over and over and over again just to get a buff to make the spear viable.

Yea, it could have been fine if Vinidcator was not already a thing and Archemerous wasn't a spear user. This decision with yet another revenant weapon is just baffling. And considering the energy cost in the tooltip showed at least 10 if I read right, this is going to be a costly buff to cast and spam, at a minimum, and considering they were saying they were thinking of lowering how many stacks you get from 2 to 1 means that this will be yet another weapon that goes on the garbage pile because of a ludicrous ramp up time that is costly to maintain or use properly.

Edited June 22 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Kheron.9062]

The spear will need to be quicker on basically every skill. 1/2s autos, 3/4s spear 5, the other skills that are 1s right now should be 1/2s too. Otherwise then this will suck for open world tagging, it will suck for pvp/wvw. The one place this will see a use if it stays this slow is on the golem. Probably not even in real strikes/raids or metas even. Like if I am stacking on a dragon's left paw, I am going to want to use the piercing shortbow or hammer to hit all 3 hitboxes and do more damage.

Also, the costs of spammable skills being so high is awful. 5 casts on a boss to stack RAze will be 50 energy. This is unusable

I also agree that 600 range is way too slow, esp for the speed. 900 would be serviceable, although another 1,200 option to compete with hammer would be welcome. At least the Devs, on stream, said they are open to 900 range. Hopefully they are *also* open to the cast times being slashed.

After upping the speeds then yes, cover condis if they want it to be at all viable for condi in pvp/wvw.

Edited June 22 by Kheron.9062
Adding more info

[Yasai.3549]

3 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Going to add on, why is Vindicator not being prioritized with this and given a buff to spear? Seriously, ANet you are dropping the ball with this.

Vindicator aside, we still have a whole slew of things to fix or improvements that we aren't getting. Scepter, Swords, Staff are the main things that need looking at for gameplay health and sustainability. Herald needs looking at for competitive modes. Some traitlines are a chaotic mess (Retribution and Corruption mainly) 

I feel that Anet just doesn't give a hoot about Revenant period. Here have a new toy, now shut up.

[Shagie.7612]

I know a lot of people want it to be a power weapon because Archemorus, and with it being pure torment and barely any slow or chill for cover I honestly find it hard to disagree, but I think it would have made more sense as a true melee condi weapon.

The condi version of greatsword, to mace+axe/shield. Plus it gives non-Herald a decent melee weapon combo for condi builds in pvp, which is by far the biggest thing condi Ren and Vindi lack.

I think, with how many weapons are around, they're going to be pretty specific from here on out and so people are setting themselves up for disappointment if they want it to be usable on lots of builds/damage types. Very possible that an expac release might not be for you, and that sucks but it's probably unavoidable at this point.

[Yasai.3549]

7 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I know a lot of people want it to be a power weapon because Archemorus, and with it being pure torment and barely any slow or chill for cover I honestly find it hard to disagree, but I think it would have made more sense as a true melee condi weapon.

The condi version of greatsword, to mace+axe/shield. Plus it gives non-Herald a decent melee weapon combo for condi builds in pvp, which is by far the biggest thing condi Ren and Vindi lack.

I think, with how many weapons are around, they're going to be pretty specific from here on out and so people are setting themselves up for disappointment if they want it to be usable on lots of builds/damage types. Very possible that an expac release might not be for you, and that sucks but it's probably unavoidable at this point.

Anet says you get Condi pre buff Hammer and you will like it.

Oh also it's 600 range so actually worse than Hammer. 

Edited June 22 by Yasai.3549

[Angesombre.4630]

I can't understand why we're only allowed to use torment and frost, even though there are other damage levels on the revenant:
Diabolic Inferno (trait) poison and burn
Searing Fissure (mass) burns
Igniting Brand (aquatic spear) burns
Portal Fire (trident) burns with herald
Reckoning Blast (trident) burn with herald
Torrential Mists (trident) burn with herald, a skill with a cost of 20 for a CD of 20 that's a bit excessive.
Scorchrazor (short bow) burn
Spiritcrush (short bow) burn
Elemental Blast (herald) burn
Scavenger Burst (alliance) burn
So why do we only have torment on the spear?
And why did our spear have such long incantation times and the same for animations?
If we look at the alliance spear, it's slow. Before, it had a 2000 gate, so I could understand why it's now at 1200 and still just as slow. I'll take the rodeur for example, which has a range of 1500 and its attacks are launched much faster.

[Shagie.7612]

21 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Anet says you get Condi pre buff Hammer and you will like it.

Oh also it's 600 range so actually worse than Hammer. 

Even if they bump it up to 900, which I figure is pretty much a guarantee at this point given how poorly that preview is being received, what does it add to condi builds?

An alternative to shortbow, where you'll pick whichever one is better on any given patch? In pve I guess you could take both, but spear brings with it mechanical issues because energy doesn't lend itself well to having both a weapon mechanic and legend upkeeps/utilities. I think that's going to make it difficult to balance unless they massively reduce/remove the energy cost on the weapon.

[Vekaiel.8493]

4 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I'm going to be real; I feel the devs only put things together for revs now with no actual rhyme or reason, or respect for the lore of the class anymore. I don't get this shadowy spear non-sense, I mean I expected the range at this point because doing things wrongly seems to be the MO they are going for with rev since SotO now.

But the fact that Archemerous, you know the SPEAR GUY of the revenant is right there and they go for this shadowy stuff. Never mind the constant need to maintain a singular buff over and over again just to make the spear viable.

The scepter was already poorly designed and thought out for revs, and it needed lots of love if not an absolute rework, but the spear now for Rev just annoys me even more. It should have been designed with Archemerous in mind, and this constantly needing to buff up makes my wrist hurt thinking about it, and this whatever this mine dash thing is. Doesn't even get the cool effect of bow of throwing into the void to spawn portal or anything, just a mass blob that looks like it was just tossed out there to toss it out.

I am massively disappointed, I knew it would be a condi weapon, which revs need, but yet again another bloody ranged weapon and they are talking about making it range 900. They really are demonstrating they aren't really paying attention to revenant mechanics, their own designs, or even caring about the lore they've established. No reason to make these effects Mallyx based instead of Archemerous, no reason not to have the spear be calling on Archemerous. Instead we just get amorphous blobs I could design in After Effects in about 5 minutes using basic stencils.

For lore it could have something to do with the shadow army in fissure of woe. That part does not bother me too much.

[Angesombre.4630]

2 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I can't understand why we're only allowed to use torment and frost, even though there are other damage levels on the revenant:
Diabolic Inferno (trait) poison and burn
Searing Fissure (mass) burns
Igniting Brand (aquatic spear) burns
Portal Fire (trident) burns with herald
Reckoning Blast (trident) burn with herald
Torrential Mists (trident) burn with herald, a skill with a cost of 20 for a CD of 20 that's a bit excessive.
Scorchrazor (short bow) burn
Spiritcrush (short bow) burn
Elemental Blast (herald) burn
Scavenger Burst (alliance) burn
So why do we only have torment on the spear?
And why did our spear have such long incantation times and the same for animations?
If we look at the alliance spear, it's slow. Before, it had a 2000 gate, so I could understand why it's now at 1200 and still just as slow. I'll take the rodeur for example, which has a range of 1500 and its attacks are launched much faster.

As has also been said, we've only got one alteration, so when you remove them, it's easy. Take the necro, for example, which takes 5 different alters to clean, it's not as easy.

sorry little addition

[Twilightmage.8309]

all i wanted was another ranged wep that was good in pve for shortbow to pair with.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I'm going to be real; I feel the devs only put things together for revs now with no actual rhyme or reason, or respect for the lore of the class anymore. I don't get this shadowy spear non-sense, I mean I expected the range at this point because doing things wrongly seems to be the MO they are going for with rev since SotO now.

But the fact that Archemerous, you know the SPEAR GUY of the revenant is right there and they go for this shadowy stuff. Never mind the constant need to maintain a singular buff over and over again just to make the spear viable.

The scepter was already poorly designed and thought out for revs, and it needed lots of love if not an absolute rework, but the spear now for Rev just annoys me even more. It should have been designed with Archemerous in mind, and this constantly needing to buff up makes my wrist hurt thinking about it, and this whatever this mine dash thing is. Doesn't even get the cool effect of bow of throwing into the void to spawn portal or anything, just a mass blob that looks like it was just tossed out there to toss it out.

I am massively disappointed, I knew it would be a condi weapon, which revs need, but yet again another bloody ranged weapon and they are talking about making it range 900. They really are demonstrating they aren't really paying attention to revenant mechanics, their own designs, or even caring about the lore they've established. No reason to make these effects Mallyx based instead of Archemerous, no reason not to have the spear be calling on Archemerous. Instead we just get amorphous blobs I could design in After Effects in about 5 minutes using basic stencils.

This is something that's been bouncing around in the back of my mind as well. Rev's theme has been about taking inspiration and power from legends in the Mists, but the last couple have kind of felt a bit like they're just generic darkness stuff. Sceptre was supposedly inspired by the Kryptis, but I don't recall Eparch pulling out a red shadowsaber, and what we know of Febe sounds like he wouldn't bother. Spear is a massive missed opportunity for Archemorus, but instead it's just turned into generic shadowstuff - maybe it'll turn out to be copying something in the expansion, but I have a sneaky suspicion it won't.

The tragic thing is that there's the opportunity to fill in gaps that exist in revenant's theme. Spear could have been Archemorus' weapon. We could have had a MH weapon, possibly a melee-ish support-oriented weapon like sceptre turned out to be, that represents Glint, so you can actually go full Glint rather than mixing in a bit of Mallyx or Shiro (although, to be fair, mace's fire field does give it a decent 'empowered by the dragon' feel). It probably is too late to change anything substantial about spear now, but I am worried that revenant's weapons post-SotO are squandering the profession's identity.

[Ephyr.2175]

Who came up with the idea that Abyssal Blot should have at the final strike do a pull?

I wonder how many raptors this skill is able to "catch".

"Great" idea to do an area skill with a pull at the end, mobs will just wait like golems and do nothing

Edited June 23 by Ephyr.2175

[Malus.2184]

18 hours ago, Vennyhedgie.5369 said:

I'm not a huge fan of advocating for full reworks because it's just not feasible at this point. This isn't an engie shortbow situation. What you suggested also sounds literally like Greatsword skills but condi, which isn't terribly interesting.

I think the range component should still be viable, just make it at least 900. Having spears being a hybrid between melee and range is good and gives it a unique niche.

 

Do you find short bows with different skin and overall worse interesting?

[Lionwait.4815]

Sorry guys. You all were right. I have no defense to say about this spear.

Edited Friday at 12:05 PM by Lionwait.4815
Had a change of heart on some critiques like cast speed being to slow.

[hoofnoodle.3698]

Personally not a fan of the mines, the ground targets, the speed, cost, and lack of condis. If it's going to have a power focus, so be it, but I don't see how this would be viable at all in pvp or even pve.