There is no counter to boonball meta due to the nerf to boon removal skills.

[Joonmo.7523]

Boon removal skills have been nerfed for years.
There is currently no counter to boonball meta.
 

I've read your discussions about boonball.

Some posts seem to think that the problem with boonball is due to celestial gear, but I don't think so.

Since a few years ago, ArenaNet has been nerfing boon removal skills.
Because of this, the biggest problem with boonball is that there is no counter.
The only thing that can beat boonball now is a stronger boonball.

Boonball was strong before, but not as much as it is now.
Because boon removal skills did their job properly.

Currently, boon removal skills are too limited in number and ineffective compared to boon sharing skills.

Spellbreaker's elite skill "Winds of Disenchantment" was a counter to Disenchantment.
But now, after 10 nerfs in 7 years, it is inefficient compared to the slots consumed and the cooldown.
(10 seconds duration, 0.5 seconds pulse, 10 targets, 100% boon duration reduction -> 4 seconds duration, 1 second pulse, 5 targets, 33% boon duration reduction)
Spellbreaker's "Break Enchantments" changed from 4 disenchantments to 1 disenchantment.
Masmer's null field was halved.

In addition, many disenchantment skills and traits were nerfed.

The reason why boon balls are so powerful now is that disenchantment skills have been nerfed over the past 7 years, so there is no counter.
 

[Sheff.4851]

Can't you just use more boon removal skills? For example, you talk about nerfs to Spellbreaker. The version of Spellbreaker played when Dome and Winds were good, used Hammer + Sword/Warhorn as its weapon set. But now that those skills are nerfed, maybe you need to use Dagger instead of Sword, for extra boon removal.

Mesmer's Null Field was halved. Maybe instead you use Phantasmal Disenchanter. Or you use Null Field and Phantasmal Disenchanter. Or you use Null Field and Phantasmal Disenchanter and Gravity Well instead of Time Warp.

Strips were nerfed across the board, so maybe instead of a pure DPS profession like a Dragonhunter or Holosmith, you instead use a profession that does pretty good DPS, and also removes boons at the same time, like a DPS Spellbreaker, or a Reaper.

You'll recall, at the start of the game, when boon application was much lower, groups didn't just...not have Stability. Instead they ran two Guardians in every party, in the old GWEN meta days. When boon access has been nerfed in the past, groups don't just shrug and go "oh well, guess we'll just not have boons". They add more boons into their groups. I'm not sure why people are looking at boon removal nerfs, shrugging, and assuming that boons can't be removed anymore. Just run more boon removal professions instead of other builds.

[Cuks.8241]

There is plenty of boon strip in comped groups right now. A good group will focus and completely strip you during the engage. Mostly because of Renegade and Banish Enchantment that is 3 strips, targeted with 5 sec CD. Unlike many skills it's targeted so it's easy to focus specific players or smaller chunks of the ball which you can than CC and kill. Add Brutality trait that specifically removes stability and boon stripping sigils and relics.

And on top you still have the usual strippers like necros, SpB and mesmers.

Also a tip. Rene with Demon stance and possibly some stripping sigils is great to annoy boonballs as a roamer. Target the players that lag behind a bit (possibly fall out of condi cleanse range) with Banish Enchantment to strip and chill them and follow with Short bow 5 and another Banish Enchantment and proceed to kill. From experience this is like kicking the hornets nest.

Edit: I didnt agree with all the boon stripping changes they made in the past. But you can compensate to an extent with relic and sigils. Which I think was also part of the intention. We have more variation now and like I said I don't really see an issue right now, if your comp is right you can strip. But it requires a bit more coordination.

Edited July 28 by Cuks.8241

[Joonmo.7523]

5 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Mesmer의 Null Field가 반으로 줄었습니다. 대신 Phantasmal Disenchanter를 사용할 수도 있습니다. 아니면 Null Field 와 Phantasmal Disenchanter를 사용할 수도 있습니다  . 아니면  Time Warp 대신 Null Field 와  Phantasmal Disenchanter  와 Gravity Well을  사용할 수도 있습니다  .

Phantasmal Disenchanter (WvW)
Phantasm. Summon an illusion that removes boons from targets it hits. This attack deals increased damage against foes without boons.

 Damage without Boons: 504 (0.5)?
 Damage with Boons: 201 (0.2)?
 Boons Removed: 1
 Number of Bounces: 4
 Range: 900
 Unblockable

Do you think this skill removes enough boons??
It's a skill that removes only one boon.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

6 hours ago, Sheff.4851 said:

Can't you just use more boon removal skills?

If people haven't already thought of that we wouldn't be in this mess would we? Come on, man it isn't rocket science.

[Sheff.4851]

3 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

If people haven't already thought of that we wouldn't be in this mess would we? Come on, man it isn't rocket science.

People have already thought of it -- why do you think comped groups are running Renegade and double Scourge? It's because they're the best boon removal professions right now, and you need to run three of them to overcome the boon support that groups are able to generate.

[Cuks.8241]

3 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

If people haven't already thought of that we wouldn't be in this mess would we? Come on, man it isn't rocket science.

Like @Sheff.4851 said. Players have adapted. You can't just have 1 scourge per subgroup doing all the strips anymore. You need 2-3 players per subgroup able to strip and coordination is more important. You might also need to compensate with equipment, maybe use Sigil of Nullification or Relic of Cerus.

[Sheff.4851]

Not even Nullification anymore. Reaper using Sword/Focus + GS has 'true' corrupts that are able to convert Stability into Fear, plus a few hard crowd control skills, which means you can bust out Sigil of Absorption instead of Sigil of Nullification and farm interrupts to steal even more boons.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, Sheff.4851 said:

People have already thought of it -- why do you think comped groups are running Renegade and double Scourge? It's because they're the best boon removal professions right now, and you need to run three of them to overcome the boon support that groups are able to generate.

Don't worry, Anet will nerf this soon.

[Sheff.4851]

9 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Don't worry, Anet will nerf this soon.

And then groups will adapt to run the new thing that's best, because that's how figuring out what is good works.

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Also a tip. Rene with Demon stance and possibly some stripping sigils is great to annoy boonballs as a roamer. Target the players that lag behind a bit (possibly fall out of condi cleanse range) with Banish Enchantment to strip and chill them and follow with Short bow 5 and another Banish Enchantment and proceed to kill. From experience this is like kicking the hornets nest.

Banish Enchantment has become pretty oppressive in certain scenarios.  Nothing like messing up a commander's push by getting all your Renegades to pinsnipe with it.  🙂

[Kozumi.5816]

29 minutes ago, Sheff.4851 said:

And then groups will adapt to run the new thing that's best, because that's how figuring out what is good works.

What's good is Boon ball, if boon ball is not good, Anet makes sure it is good.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

What's good is Boon ball, if boon ball is not good, Anet makes sure it is good.

By force if needed lol

[XenesisII.1540]

2 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

What's good is Boon ball, if boon ball is not good, Anet makes sure it is good.

Apparently wvw will fall apart if there's no boon balling, so gotta keep the trains happy. 😏

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

On 7/28/2024 at 8:27 AM, Sheff.4851 said:

People have already thought of it -- why do you think comped groups are running Renegade and double Scourge? It's because they're the best boon removal professions right now, and you need to run three of them to overcome the boon support that groups are able to generate.

Comped groups have no choice but to run Renegade and double scourage, because Anet has kittened the other boon striping from other classes into worthlessness. But that's class diversity for you am I right?

At any case,  I refuse to believe that one renegade and 2 scourge is enough to counter the boonball meta, because if people are using this comp, and boonball is still causing people grief, then clearly something wrong here.

On 7/28/2024 at 8:38 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

Like @Sheff.4851 said. Players have adapted. You can't just have 1 scourge per subgroup doing all the strips anymore. You need 2-3 players per subgroup able to strip and coordination is more important. You might also need to compensate with equipment, maybe use Sigil of Nullification or Relic of Cerus.

 

I hate it when people use the word "Adapted" Like that's what happening here. Players aren't adapting, they're being shoehorned into a build because any other option got nerfed too hard to even be worth considering.

No one asking for scourge to be a "One man boon striping army" But kitten me man, why the hell classes like spell breaker, has to fade to obscurity, when it is the class that specialize in boon stripping?

 

On 7/28/2024 at 9:46 AM, Sheff.4851 said:

And then groups will adapt to run the new thing that's best, because that's how figuring out what is good works.

If elder scrolls online told me anything, if you keep adapting to stupid nerfs and changes, eventually the balance will implode on itself, and soon everyone will grow so sick and tired of "Adapting" That you realize just how miserable and unfun it is and eventually quit altogether. Sounds familiar?
 

Edited July 29 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Cuks.8241]

7 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Comped groups have no choice but to run Renegade and double scourage, because Anet has kittened the other boon striping from other classes into worthlessness. But that's class diversity for you am I right?

At any case,  I refuse to believe that one renegade and 2 scourge is enough to counter the boonball meta, because if people are using this comp, and boonball is still causing people grief, then clearly something wrong here.

 

I hate it when people use the word "Adapted" Like that's what happening here. Players aren't adapting, they're being shoehorned into a build because any other option got nerfed too hard to even be worth considering.

No one asking for scourge to be a "One man boon striping army" But kitten me man, why the hell classes like spell breaker, has to fade to obscurity, whenit is the class that specialize in boon stripping?

 

If elder scrolls online told me anything, if you keep adapting to stupid nerfs and changes, eventually the balance will implode on itself, and soon will grow so sick and tired of "Adapting" That you realize just how miserable and unfun it is and eventually quit altogether. Sounds familiar?
 

Renegade and double Scourge is just an example Sheff made. There are various options on how to build a comp with synergy, it's not just boon strips you have to take in mind but what other things a build brings. I never saw a need for 2 Scourges per sub and we never ran it. Spellbreaker is a completely viable choice in various forms and part of it is also boon strips and many teams still run 1 or 2 bubbles even though it's not as strong as it used to be (and I do think it was over nerfed but that's just how it is). All in all you will see Spellbreakers very high (just behind Scourges in my experience) in strips. But just looking at one data parameter is useless anyway. You also have Chronos, Reaper even core necro and probably more that I am not familiar with.

Boonballs only causes problems to random clouders. And everything with a bit of an organisation and comp is a boonball for them. Saying bringing a renegade and 2x Scourge to counter a boonball is just silly. I don't know what that is suppose to mean anyway. Guilds will adapt comps to win over other comps. That's just how it is. And everyone else will cry about boonballs.

Meta changes are a constant in competitive games. In all games. Balance or rule changes are often a trigger but it's not even necessary. It's not even limited to computer games. See any sport and see how the game strategies and tactics change over time. Sometimes because of rule or technology changes or sometimes just because players and team find a tactic that works better for them. See NBA for example. How the meta changed from big man under the rim dominance to 3 point shooting.  I am not sure if there were even any big rule changes meanwhile (I think those came before with Shaq), it's just GsW dominating with 3p shooters. And yeah teams changed comps for it. Crying over meta changes is just a losing mentality in general.

[Mike.3196]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:01 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

There is plenty of boon strip in comped groups right now. A good group will focus and completely strip you during the engage. Mostly because of Renegade and Banish Enchantment that is 3 strips, targeted with 5 sec CD. Unlike many skills it's targeted so it's easy to focus specific players or smaller chunks of the ball which you can than CC and kill. Add Brutality trait that specifically removes stability and boon stripping sigils and relics.

And on top you still have the usual strippers like necros, SpB and mesmers.

Also a tip. Rene with Demon stance and possibly some stripping sigils is great to annoy boonballs as a roamer. Target the players that lag behind a bit (possibly fall out of condi cleanse range) with Banish Enchantment to strip and chill them and follow with Short bow 5 and another Banish Enchantment and proceed to kill. From experience this is like kicking the hornets nest.

Edit: I didnt agree with all the boon stripping changes they made in the past. But you can compensate to an extent with relic and sigils. Which I think was also part of the intention. We have more variation now and like I said I don't really see an issue right now, if your comp is right you can strip. But it requires a bit more coordination.

I'm speechless how you think there is enough boonstrip. I don't think we play same game 

[Cyninja.2954]

The question is: is dedicating 2 slots per subgroup for boon removal, and not even most classes qualify to be able to play that role, fine?

As is, current subgroups look like this:

- 1 FB (or chrono)

- 1 second support (if faced with condi meta celestial squads, add another second support every 2 groups)

- 2 boon strips (heavy shoehorned into very specific classes

- 1 free slot going to pure dps

That seems like a heavy focus on boon removal when instead having stronger boon removal and increasing the flex slots to 2 might be more "fun". On top of which, the boon removal provided is spot removal only, within seconds boons are up again, so it's not like there is ample boon removal happening. The moment you lack those boon denial classes, boons on the enemy are pretty much permanent.

Yes, if boon removal gets nerfed even more, there is room to run 3 boon removal classes per sub, at which point there will be near no flexibility any more in composition.

I feel as though having more significant boon removal skills, the old WoD for example, had more impact and were more fun to use (for both sides because you sure as hell tried to get out of one when it got dropped). There could be similar effects used for boon denial: like temporary reduction or denial of replication of boons instead of just corrupts and strips, ideally around area denial skills. The developers went in this direction with some other skills (warrior banners for example).

Edited July 29 by Cyninja.2954

[Kozumi.5816]

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The question is: is dedicating 2 slots per subgroup for boon removal, and not even most classes qualify to be able to play that role, fine?

As is, current subgroups look like this:

- 1 FB (or chrono)

- 1 second support (if faced with condi meta celestial squads, add another second support every 2 groups)

- 2 boon strips (heavy shoehorned into very specific classes

- 1 free slot going to pure dps

That seems like a heavy focus on boon removal when instead having stronger boon removal and increasing the flex slots to 2 might be more "fun". On top of which, the boon removal provided is spot removal only, within seconds boons are up again, so it's not like there is ample boon removal happening. The moment you lack those boon denial classes, boons on the enemy are pretty much permanent.

Yes, if boon removal gets nerfed even more, there is room to run 3 boon removal classes per sub, at which point there will be near no flexibility any more in composition.

This assumes equal  numbers.

If the enemy has more numbers, you will never rip boons fast enough and have yours ripped instantly and die in 5 seconds.

This is why balancing around this type of game play is terrible.

If they want this type of PvP then they need to make WvW a queue only game mode where as soon as two 50/50 squads are found it starts the match, with zero outsiders allowed in.

Edited July 29 by Kozumi.5816

[Cyninja.2954]

3 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This assumes equal  numbers.

If the enemy has more numbers, you will never rip boons fast enough and have yours ripped instantly and die in 5 seconds.

This is why balancing around this type of game play is terrible.

'If they want this type of PvP then they need to make WvW a queue only game mode where as soon as two 50/50 squads  are found it starts the match, with zero outsiders allowed in.

Oh absolutely, uneven numbers is even more of a reason to provide SIGNIFICANT boon removal, to allow the smaller side to impact boons against a numeric superior opponent.

That's where I think the developers have been going off the road: they've taken so many tools away which smaller groups could utilize to bridge the size gap, that all that is left is huge blobs. The moment your blob is even only partly smaller, you auto lose.

Now there is an element of skill still, a group of size X can still take on a less organized group Y (Y > X+10) but eventually boons are permanent for all intents and purposes and if group Y is even remotely properly setup, they will win. This was not the case as much in the past where a skilled group of say 20 was able to contest a full zone, or at least dent it before dying.

Edited July 29 by Cyninja.2954

[senftube.6081]

Boonball and Celestial are the biggest Trash this game got. No Skill anymore only stand still and facetanking the dmg. Devs are still sleeping expecially CMC. Anet pls wake the kitten up!

Thats happening when you design a game without a holy trinity and with a dodge mechanic and then try to turn it into ESO. The Endresult is the same trashshit we had for over 20 years. But here even more worse because you can't kill kitten anymore.

Game turned completly into carebear wars 2 and autopilot.

Edited July 29 by senftube.6081

[oatsnjuices.1698]

Unkillable is the new op. 

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 7/27/2024 at 9:25 PM, Sheff.4851 said:

Can't you just use more boon removal skills? For example, you talk about nerfs to Spellbreaker. The version of Spellbreaker played when Dome and Winds were good, used Hammer + Sword/Warhorn as its weapon set. But now that those skills are nerfed, maybe you need to use Dagger instead of Sword, for extra boon removal.

Mesmer's Null Field was halved. Maybe instead you use Phantasmal Disenchanter. Or you use Null Field and Phantasmal Disenchanter. Or you use Null Field and Phantasmal Disenchanter and Gravity Well instead of Time Warp.

Strips were nerfed across the board, so maybe instead of a pure DPS profession like a Dragonhunter or Holosmith, you instead use a profession that does pretty good DPS, and also removes boons at the same time, like a DPS Spellbreaker, or a Reaper.

You'll recall, at the start of the game, when boon application was much lower, groups didn't just...not have Stability. Instead they ran two Guardians in every party, in the old GWEN meta days. When boon access has been nerfed in the past, groups don't just shrug and go "oh well, guess we'll just not have boons". They add more boons into their groups. I'm not sure why people are looking at boon removal nerfs, shrugging, and assuming that boons can't be removed anymore. Just run more boon removal professions instead of other builds.

1 player in a squad can put up 5 boons permanently (I'm being generous as a lot of builds can do a LOT more than that).  And, they can do that multiple times over during the cooldown of those skills.  Even if I play the most boon removing build I can, I will have only negated 2 of those boons for 5 of 30 seconds.

So, fights at the individual level look like this: boon x5, boonstrip x2, both boons reapplied instantly and I can't restrip them for another 15-25 seconds.  As the groups get larger and more comped, even if every single defender played the highest boonstrip build in the game, in an even number fight the attacker would have every single boon up 27/30 seconds and the defenders would have 0 stability.  This fight lasts about 1 push.  

This is why you now see that NA has somewhat adopted the chinese wvw strategy of "just stand on top of each other and see who fails their rotation first (or just has more players in the blob)".

Edited July 29 by MedievalThings.5417

[Junkpile.7439]

Problem is that boon strip builds are lame kitten builds and still weak. Who wanna play kitten like that in casual game mode?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 7/27/2024 at 10:16 PM, Joonmo.7523 said:

Boon removal skills have been nerfed for years.
There is currently no counter to boonball meta.
 

I've read your discussions about boonball.

Some posts seem to think that the problem with boonball is due to celestial gear, but I don't think so.

Since a few years ago, ArenaNet has been nerfing boon removal skills.
Because of this, the biggest problem with boonball is that there is no counter.
The only thing that can beat boonball now is a stronger boonball.

Boonball was strong before, but not as much as it is now.
Because boon removal skills did their job properly.

Currently, boon removal skills are too limited in number and ineffective compared to boon sharing skills.

Spellbreaker's elite skill "Winds of Disenchantment" was a counter to Disenchantment.
But now, after 10 nerfs in 7 years, it is inefficient compared to the slots consumed and the cooldown.
(10 seconds duration, 0.5 seconds pulse, 10 targets, 100% boon duration reduction -> 4 seconds duration, 1 second pulse, 5 targets, 33% boon duration reduction)
Spellbreaker's "Break Enchantments" changed from 4 disenchantments to 1 disenchantment.
Masmer's null field was halved.

In addition, many disenchantment skills and traits were nerfed.

The reason why boon balls are so powerful now is that disenchantment skills have been nerfed over the past 7 years, so there is no counter.
 

Take 10 sidecarring deadeyes with bountiful theft, sleight if hand, have them call and take target. Focus marking target, mercy, do it again. Have collateral damage on all deadeyes in power gear (it scales off power) 

 

No stab primarily. but no boons will be left on target at all, CC chained, primed for detonation. Detonate, should really hurt boonball very very much. Any downs generated, Mark them, prime them, focus them.

Ask CC and DETH, they were there.

 

@Firestarter.9675