Bring up Demolisher, Paladin and Tyrant stats to PvE...

[Buran.3796]

   At the moment, there's power stats which bring up some health to the table (Marauder, Dragon) but not toughness unless you want to entirely wash your damage (as Knight). The same can be said for condition: you can deliver damage and be a HP sponge (Dire, Trailblazer), but if you find your HP ok in your condi build and your armor lacking we really don't have a good stat combo with condi damage + toughness...  Unless we go cele, but we have been there for ages. Can we get those three, please?

[Parasite.5389]

Toughness isn't a useful stat in PvE (outside of raiding to set your Tank), as it only deals offer protection from Strike damage

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Parasite.5389 said:

Toughness isn't a useful stat in PvE (outside of raiding to set your Tank), as it only deals offer protection from Strike damage

  Most of the damage from enemies in OW is strike damage, and conditions are countered more easily with cleanses than just stacking HP. If I play solo (which I do most of the time) and my spec already has baseline 17-20k HP I find out reaching  ~2.8k armor more useful for damage mitigation. 

   With the current stat combinations available  if you run a condi build and want to up your armor you need to waste tons of stat points in HP. And if you want  strike damage + some armor you also need to chose pieces with 3 stats, which means losing points compared to Marauder or Dragon. Having Tyrant, Demolisher and Paladin stats available in PvE won't affect instanced content since the people which follows the meta will keep suing berserker, viper, etc. ...and people which ignore it will keep runing whatever random pieces they wear. But for solo OW would be better, specially since otherwise in most of cases the best alternative is just running celestial.

   ANet keeps having like 30 stat combos despite 75% of then have no use, yet some useful stats remain limited to PvP...

[Astralporing.1957]

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

[Nash.2681]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

So much this. Players should be encouraged to learn how GW2 build system and combat work, not given more opportunities to make bad decisions.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I would love to see power/ferocity/toughness and versions of dragon and marauder that replace vitality with toughness.  Especially now that we have relic of Zakiros, it might help level of the playing field a bit between power and condition damage sustain builds.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

+1

there are a lot of PvP-only stat combos that would be great in PvE and WvW for players. POWER PRECISION toughness vitality, for example,  would be a godsend for power builds in WvW considering how condition builds get stuff like Trailblazer

i have actually asked for many of the PvP stats be added to the other game modes several times over the years.

[Buran.3796]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

To be honest, we need less stats in PvE, not more. Most of them (especially most of the stat sets promoting survivability through stats, not through skill use/paying attention) not only have only extremely limited use (or no use at all), but are actually damaging because they encourage bad playing habits.

  I agree with the first part.

  Realistically, the game only needs berserker for power damage (maybe assassin for builds which doesn't nauraly cap 100% crit chance), viper for condition damage , misnstrel for pure support and diviner and ritualist for offensive support. You add celestial for jack of all trades/WvW and you have now 7 stats combos. Maybe add greieving for some hybrid builds and marauder/dragon to compensate builds with low health and the number is still 10. 2 ogf each 3 combo stats available feel useless and reiterative.

   But then you have PvP/WvW, and in these modes not being one shooted is king: so much that celestial was removed from PvP (along almost anything with high toughness), so much that Paladin was nerfed to only deliver 2800 stat points instead of 3000 as everything else since vitality + thoughness seems OP in that game mode. So, there's and argument that having some defensive stats, even in PvE can be useful. But yes: ANet should delete like 15-20 stat combos, and introduce 3-5 from PvP, and that would deliver the same or more versatility and erase the convoluted disaster so much  uselessstat variations added to the game.

   On the other hand, I don't agree in that defensive stats options should be removed from the game with the pretext of "they promote bad decissions". Because that's hypocrital: how much of you are asking from stability or breakstuns being deleted from the game since promotes ignoring gameplay mechanics? Players should run builds which make easier to be alive, because that encourages keeping playing (dying not!) and over time they will be trading defense for more offense, because would become better at staying alive and will gradually move towards higher damage numbers. And that´s exactly why I'm asking forcombos as Demolisher or Tyrant to come to PvE:  you feel that you no longer need the extra boons and healing power and HP from celestial, but you aren't ready yet for berserker or viper, so they are a bridge (and a good one!) before framing bounties as a glass canon or playing ranked naked...

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

So much this. Players should be encouraged to learn how GW2 build system and combat work, not given more opportunities to make bad decisions.

Counterpoint: Forcing players to play glass cannons when they want to play chill, tanky builds is a bad decision. Conversely, gearing for extra defense when you want to play a facetank build is a good decision. 😉

[Nash.2681]

13 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Counterpoint: Forcing players to play glass cannons when they want to play chill, tanky builds is a bad decision. Conversely, gearing for extra defense when you want to play a facetank build is a good decision. 😉

Sure, as long as those people with their chill, super tanky builds don't join instanced endgame contentn thinking they'd perform great. But looking at all the complaints reoccuring over the years about those oh so toxic elitists telling them their build is bad and they're not carrying their weight, this won't happen.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

How dare the game has 8 build tabs! How dare people play anything other than PvE instanced content! How dare anyone plays anything other than full glass builds with 0 survivability! 

It’s incredible how damaging the early days of Raid were, that outdated mindsets like “Toughness is bad” and “just run full glass” still persist til now like pesky pests. Yeah run your full glass cannons, in the middle of all the boon rips/boon corrupts, condi bombs, forced movements, random CC, etc. There aren’t any Healbrands farting Aegis/Stab for you in the open world btw.

I’m not even talking about PvP/WvW, open world mobs are starting to do these too while hitting quite hard. If anything, Soto maps necessitate a tankier and more survivable approach with their HP sponge and random damage spike design, and these mobs are often found in a dense cluster. 

I’d say the main problem is more that the game is incredibly punishing in terms of gearing that experimenting with gear is not even an option for most players. But given the option, there’s nothing wrong at all with a build more specialized in mobility and self-sustain for roaming. You can even use that build for WvW roaming as well if you wish.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Sure, as long as those people with their chill, super tanky builds don't join instanced endgame contentn thinking they'd perform great. But looking at all the complaints reoccuring over the years about those oh so toxic elitists telling them their build is bad and they're not carrying their weight, this won't happen.

I'm down with that. I won't tell you how to play instanced PVE if you don't tell me how to play OW or WVW. 😉

[Nash.2681]

5 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

How dare the game has 8 build tabs! How dare people play anything other than PvE instanced content! How dare anyone plays anything other than full glass builds with 0 survivability! 

It’s incredible how damaging the early days of Raid were, that outdated mindsets like “Toughness is bad” and “just run full glass” still persist til now like pesky pests. Yeah run your full glass cannons, in the middle of all the boon rips/boon corrupts, condi bombs, forced movements, random CC, etc. There aren’t any Healbrands farting Aegis/Stab for you in the open world btw.

I’m not even talking about PvP/WvW, open world mobs are starting to do these too while hitting quite hard. If anything, Soto maps necessitate a tankier and more survivable approach with their HP sponge and random damage spike design, and these mobs are often found in a dense cluster. 

I’d say the main problem is more that the game is incredibly punishing in terms of gearing that experimenting with gear is not even an option for most players. But given the option, there’s nothing wrong at all with a build more specialized in mobility and self-sustain for roaming. You can even use that build for WvW roaming as well if you wish.

Hyperbole aside- no one ever said to not adjust builds for content. If someone runs a full glass raid dps build in open world that has 0 condi cleanse and 0 stun break, that's a bold approach. Then again, I have yet to find any open world map or meta (including SotO) that can't be done just fine with said builds with some tweaks to handle tight situations (hint: those tweaks never include extra Vitality or Toughness). It's rather quite the opposite, most OW content becomes more than trivial if you deal high dmg.

I'm not talking PvP/WvW either, since OP is clearly talking about bringing those stats to PvE.

2 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

I'm down with that. I won't tell you how to play instanced PVE if you don't tell me how to play OW or WVW. 😉

Deal. Now get all players to think and act alike and there wouldn't be any reason to debate about things like this anymore 🙂 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

36 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Deal. Now get all players to think and act alike and there wouldn't be any reason to debate about things like this anymore 🙂 

Tall order! 😆

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Deal. Now get all players to think and act alike and there wouldn't be any reason to debate about things like this anymore 🙂 

   I don't believe you. A few montsh ago Snow Crows did release "new OW builds" but 95% of them were just the raid builds but to play OW in GROUPS. Most of them even forgot to put cleansing skills, traits or sigils of cleansing of them, which means they were never designed to solo.  Good luck soloing Ignis or Butch with them...

   Again, my request is simple: "Hey ANet, you have some nice stat combos exclusive in PvP which would be usefull in OW.;  ayway, even if you don't introduce them, you should shave 2/3 of the current stat combos (and 90% of the runes) since they have no use other than being a waste and confuse newcomers". Is quite simple.

[Kulvar.1239]

23 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I agree with the first part.

  Realistically, the game only needs berserker for power damage (maybe assassin for builds which doesn't nauraly cap 100% crit chance), viper for condition damage , misnstrel for pure support and diviner and ritualist for offensive support. You add celestial for jack of all trades/WvW and you have now 7 stats combos. Maybe add greieving for some hybrid builds and marauder/dragon to compensate builds with low health and the number is still 10. 2 ogf each 3 combo stats available feel useless and reiterative.

I checked Snow Crows, organized PvE need:

• Assassin
• Berserker
• Cleric
• Diviner
• Dragon*
• Giver
• Grieving
• Harrier
• Magi
• Minstrel
• Plaguedoctor
• Rampager
• Ritualist
• Sinister
• Viper

* Some strike builds benefit more from extra ferocity from Dragon than extra power from Berzerker in some equipment slots.
If there was a ferocity + power/precision prefix, it would probably replace Dragon there, then Dragon would move below.

Open world PvE and WvW need the above prefixes and also at least:

• Celestial
• Marauder
• Trailblazer

Edited August 8 by Kulvar.1239

[Buran.3796]

7 minutes ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

I checked Snow Crows, organized PvE need:

    Nah. Some of those stats are used in 1-2 slots of 14, just to get a few more points in secondary stats once max crit chance is caped, etc. And some of the meta builds won't even would be used in hard encounters if another spec fills significatively better a given role. Check hwo much build variety was used the two last time a hard boss took over a week to be defeated. You can split that list in two, ditch half of those stat combos and the meta would be exactly the same. But again, I'm not asking this for instanced content. 

[Kulvar.1239]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

    Nah. Some of those stats are used in 1-2 slots of 14, just to get a few more points in secondary stats once max crit chance is caped, etc. And some of the meta builds won't even would be used in hard encounters if another spec fills significatively better a given role. Check hwo much build variety was used the two last time a hard boss took over a week to be defeated. You can split that list in two, ditch half of those stat combos and the meta would be exactly the same. But again, I'm not asking this for instanced content. 

It may be a few slots, but it's balanced around it. If you rebalance to streamline, you "only" need for instanced PvE:

• Berserker
• Diviner
• Harrier
• Minstrel
• Ritualist
• Viper

Edited August 8 by Kulvar.1239

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I don't believe you. A few montsh ago Snow Crows did release "new OW builds" but 95% of them were just the raid builds but to play OW in GROUPS. Most of them even forgot to put cleansing skills, traits or sigils of cleansing of them, which means they were never designed to solo.  Good luck soloing Ignis or Butch with them...

   Again, my request is simple: "Hey ANet, you have some nice stat combos exclusive in PvP which would be usefull in OW.;  ayway, even if you don't introduce them, you should shave 2/3 of the current stat combos (and 90% of the runes) since they have no use other than being a waste and confuse newcomers". Is quite simple.

I disagree with some of the build concepts for SC, too.  But soloing butch and Ignis is a pretty bizarre metric for what a solo build needs to be capable of.

Still, I would love to see these stat combos in pve.

[Nash.2681]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I don't believe you. A few montsh ago Snow Crows did release "new OW builds" but 95% of them were just the raid builds but to play OW in GROUPS. Most of them even forgot to put cleansing skills, traits or sigils of cleansing of them, which means they were never designed to solo.  Good luck soloing Ignis or Butch with them...

   Again, my request is simple: "Hey ANet, you have some nice stat combos exclusive in PvP which would be usefull in OW.;  ayway, even if you don't introduce them, you should shave 2/3 of the current stat combos (and 90% of the runes) since they have no use other than being a waste and confuse newcomers". Is quite simple.

You're correct about SC's open world section. I was pretty confused myself about it and compared some of the builds to their raid equivalent and found no differences besides some minor explainations. But then again, that was not exactly what I said. If you take those builds and think for a moment (SC makes this even easier since they usually tell which utility skills can be changed if needed), you're usually set and good to go. Adding more stat combos that effectively hurt the builds won't do any good. If they ever finish their "AccessiBuilds" section, that's the one I'd rather consider as "open world builds". 

[Buran.3796]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I disagree with some of the build concepts for SC, too.  But soloing butch and Ignis is a pretty bizarre metric for what a solo build needs to be capable of.

Still, I would love to see these stat combos in pve.

   Well, I consider that soloing the HoT Hero Points or the Champion Bandit bounties from central Tyria are a good starting point for OW solo builds. I oftenly do the HoT run and in 30-35 minutes you get 6-8 gold coins so a build that allows you to do that comfy is the bare minimum.

   Then, of course ther'e bounties, legendary bounties and collective events that you don't solo because they are cost effective (they aren't), but still you do because is fun. Some of them are clearly harder than others and for me those mark the line of builds that really excell: I've soloed Ignis a few times, but most times I only grind him to 10%-5% until the time cap expires. And with butcher sometimes I do reach 40-30% and don't die, but I don't get the kill. So for me they are good landmarks. And albeit my mediocre skills are probably part of the problem, a bit of gear optimization would help.

[Antycypator.9874]

And swashbuckler. I really want a good hybrid build with boosted health that doesn't require mixing stats and ending up worse than celestial.

[zeyeti.8347]

I really wish for some good mix healer support offensiv stats , like Healing/power main and concentration/precision second , same for a condi version , many instanced content don't need a lot of healing depending on your group expertise , and you will feel somewhat usefull and a bit more than just a boon dealer.

[Parasite.5389]

So rather than adding these Prefixes to PvE; can you actually get the same stats using existing PvE prefixes?

Surprisingly, Yes, with a little bit of effort you can already repilcate these stat combinations (+/- a few points here or there).
However it should be noted that PvP stat combinations are generally slightly lower than their PvE counterparts E.g. the power stat for Berserker armor in PvP is 2200, Vs 2361 in PvE

With that said, lets start with the Demolisher;
in PVP you'll have the following stats:

• Power:  2000
• toughness: 1500
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 2000
• ferocity: 500
• condidtion damage: 0

these stats can be replicated in PvE using Assassins Weapons+Back piece, Berserker armor, and Knights trinkets, giving us out final stats of:

• Power:  2085
• toughness: 1629
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 2054
• ferocity: 535
• condidtion damage: 0

an improvment over PvP even before taking into consideration the additional stats from Infusions or complimentary runes

we see a slight dip with Paladin:
PvP:

• Power:  2000
• toughness: 1400
• vitality: 1400
• precision: 2000
• ferocity: 0
• condidtion damage: 0

PvE: Assassin weapons, Soldier armor, Assassin trinkets:

• Power:  2085
• toughness: 1315
• vitality: 1315
• precision: 1942
• ferocity: 0
• condidtion damage: 0

and finally a slightly more noticable dip condition damage when trying to replicate Tyrant:
PvP

• Power:  2000
• toughness: 1500
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 1500
• ferocity: 0
• condidtion damage: 1000

PvE: Sinister weapons, armor, and amulet, Soldier trinkets, Rabid backpiece

• Power:  1921
• toughness: 1512
• vitality: 1000
• precision: 1961
• ferocity: 0
• condidtion damage: 909

All these sets use Core prefixes that are available in Ascended quality; values don't account for additional stats from runes or Infusions which would allow more fine tuning to reach your desired values.

[Jski.6180]

More stat combos the better! Mostly for wvw though.