Make easier weapons please - axe and spear are too hard to use efficiently

[FlawlezZ.3178]

Thief had the highest benching dps build by a large margin for the entirety of SOTO (power axe deadeye). But despite this, people have not been playing it (it's too hard to play). Spear is another weapon that has an extremely fast-paced and unforgiving rotation. Meaning, again, people will not play it because it's too hard to play. Please, also make simpler and strong builds that are more popular, like the recent Tempest, Virtuoso, Soulbeast and so on.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Problem is that any weapon they release that is strong on an "easy" build will be stupidly game breakingly strong on the current meta deadeye build.

If it's less the weapons and more the trait interactions that make the build hard to use, nothing short of a redesign of thief would fix it. 

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

any weapon that is usable on specter will be broken on deadeye and its because of maleficent seven trait. as long as maleficent seven exists in its current form any weapon will be balanced with this trait in mind.

[pipo.6075]

i started playing thief weeks before this expansion cuz i really liked spear on beta, but since the release of this expansion it's been very frustrating. Feels clunky, slow, bugged, underpowered and boring. At the same time, other weapons like axe still has a lot of issues on crucial mechanics. I'm very disappointed.

[Antycypator.9874]

Lets see...

Rifle: Spam 3 for damage.
Staff: Spam 2 for damage.
Dagger/Dagger: Press 5 whenever you can stealth. Spam 2 if your target is below 25% health. For condi version spam 3.
Scepter/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Pistol/Pistol: Spam 3 damage.
Sword/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Axe/X: Press 2 2 and 3.
Pistol/Dagger: Spam 3 and move forward.
Shortbow: Spam 2 for damage.

Spear: The first weapon with actual skill combinations, but your can spam 333 and 1... or 223 and 1... or 233 and 1 for easy rotation.
 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Lets see...

Rifle: Spam 3 for damage.
Staff: Spam 2 for damage.
Dagger/Dagger: Press 5 whenever you can stealth. Spam 2 if your target is below 25% health. For condi version spam 3.
Scepter/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Pistol/Pistol: Spam 3 damage.
Sword/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Axe/X: Press 2 2 and 3.
Pistol/Dagger: Spam 3 and move forward.
Shortbow: Spam 2 for damage.

Spear: The first weapon with actual skill combinations, but your can spam 333 and 1... or 223 and 1... or 233 and 1 for easy rotation.
 

Now do these while an enemy is actively trying to kill you

[Sweetbread.3678]

The only thing Thief spear needs is an audio/visual queue on when you've completed a finisher. I guess if you're used to just endlessly spamming 3 on 90% of your weapons, a rotation of 2224231 (replace the first 2 with a 3 on opening strikes, otherwise repeat forever) would look impossibly complex, but it's really really not (especially when considering how wildly overloaded the weapon's kit actually is).

[Doggie.3184]

8 hours ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

The only thing Thief spear needs is an audio/visual queue on when you've completed a finisher. I guess if you're used to just endlessly spamming 3 on 90% of your weapons, a rotation of 2224231 (replace the first 2 with a 3 on opening strikes, otherwise repeat forever) would look impossibly complex, but it's really really not (especially when considering how wildly overloaded the weapon's kit actually is).

It's all fun and games till quickness is applied, then it feels messy af and hard to keep track of~ and breaks AA toggle. At that point I'd rather just hold down the 2 button and say **** it.

If not for that I'd like it a lot more outside of hating how slow-moving it is now without the leap spam or ooc stealth. Only way to make it bareable for me is with Daredevil Dash and Speed Relic on and just say bye to some damage.

[MKJO.8970]

On 8/28/2024 at 4:55 PM, Antycypator.9874 said:

Lets see...

Rifle: Spam 3 for damage.
Staff: Spam 2 for damage.
Dagger/Dagger: Press 5 whenever you can stealth. Spam 2 if your target is below 25% health. For condi version spam 3.
Scepter/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Pistol/Pistol: Spam 3 damage.
Sword/X: Spam 3 for damage.
Axe/X: Press 2 2 and 3.
Pistol/Dagger: Spam 3 and move forward.
Shortbow: Spam 2 for damage.

Spear: The first weapon with actual skill combinations, but your can spam 333 and 1... or 223 and 1... or 233 and 1 for easy rotation.
 

THIS! ArenaNet should not make more of the original dummy weapons. It legit requires the brain of an infant to play anything else but Spear and Axes. This is a long needed change to Thief, and I sincerely hope they take the combo system from spear and implement it on new weapons or even existing weapons. If u want dummy builds, go play any other class and spam stuff off cooldown.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

15 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

THIS! ArenaNet should not make more of the original dummy weapons. It legit requires the brain of an infant to play anything else but Spear and Axes.

Thief player since the headstart--it's nice having the main sustained damaged being via simple keystrokes.

Makes your loop more easy to get back into in case you get bopped out of it, leaves all of the other skills for situational uses, utility, emergencies, or whatever, and all of the weapons have a similarity so you aren't relearning your entire profession the moment you change weapons.

15 hours ago, MKJO.8970 said:

If u want dummy builds, go play any other class and spam stuff off cooldown.

The only profession that could even remotely be considered a "dummy build" in all of GW2 was HoT-release Revenant with mainhand sword. Literally pressing 1 did as much damage as some DPS builds back then.

Warrior veterans in PvP are definitely not a dummy profession when they're using 2012-2015 mechanics in 2024.

On 8/29/2024 at 2:56 AM, Doggie.3184 said:

It's all fun and games till quickness is applied, then it feels messy af and hard to keep track of~ and breaks AA toggle. At that point I'd rather just hold down the 2 button and say **** it

Same issue that happened on release of Scepter & Axe. Best fix for it right now is to disable auto-attack and just be mindful and demure when going into Stealth

On 8/28/2024 at 12:49 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Now do these while an enemy is actively trying to kill you

The trick is to do all that before the enemy knows they're in a fight.

The moment they are hitting you, you've lost the advantage and need to gtfo--that's been Thief 101 since day 1.

[Jobber.6348]

On 8/26/2024 at 2:50 AM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Problem is that any weapon they release that is strong on an "easy" build will be stupidly game breakingly strong on the current meta deadeye build.

If it's less the weapons and more the trait interactions that make the build hard to use, nothing short of a redesign of thief would fix it. 

I thought the point of Thief was giving it simpler skills that interact very directly and making the Thief player plan their optimal combat strategy with their initative in mind for each encounter? What happened to that in favor of packing a ton of mechanics into a weapon to the point it becomes essentially a mini-espec? 

[Liewec.2896]

i hear the spear rotation is indeed complicated 😄 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

11 hours ago, Jobber.6348 said:

I thought the point of Thief was giving it simpler skills that interact very directly and making the Thief player plan their optimal combat strategy with their initative in mind for each encounter? What happened to that in favor of packing a ton of mechanics into a weapon to the point it becomes essentially a mini-espec? 

It's not like it's ele or engi level of complex tbh. I've been playing spear on cele specter a lot lately, you spam 2 when you want damage, spam 3 when you want sustain, spam wells off cool down and spam shroud skills when you run out of ini. That's enough to get you through most open world content, all dungeons and frankly the majority of fractals with minimal issues. 

Where it gets complicated is when you put a spear on the meta deadeye build and start using that rotation, using stolen skills for stealth in order to maximise your 2 spam and keep initiative up. You have to watch your key presses as if you miss a stealth you run out of ini and your DPS tanks. You really only need to play builds like this in organised raids though: most other places as long as you don't die and you give either quickness or stability to the group, you can get by. 

[Jobber.6348]

43 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Where it gets complicated is when you put a spear on the meta deadeye build and start using that rotation, using stolen skills for stealth in order to maximise your 2 spam and keep initiative up. You have to watch your key presses as if you miss a stealth you run out of ini and your DPS tanks. You really only need to play builds like this in organised raids though: most other places as long as you don't die and you give either quickness or stability to the group, you can get by. 

Figuring out PvE rotations for anything really do be like🤔📈😕📉🤪

That's why I just stick to trusty Staff DE Qdps

Edited September 6 by Jobber.6348

[kash.9213]

16 minutes ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Figuring out PvE rotations for anything really do be like🤔📈😕📉🤪

That's why I just stick to trusty Staff DE Qdps

Like Juggle explained about deciding between damage and utility, maybe set yourself to a rhythm to keep with in your head, like 2,2,3 or damage damage stealth (blam, blam, wa-blam in your head to keep the beat to keep your place since we don't have good visual indicators yet). 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

1 hour ago, Jobber.6348 said:

Figuring out PvE rotations for anything really do be like🤔📈😕📉🤪

That's why I just stick to trusty Staff DE Qdps

That's fair haha. I never learned how to play that either, I rarely PvE on a serious level. I have D/D ritualist spectre and spear zerker deadeye builds set up for group alacrity and quickness respectively if someone insists on me playing "meta". I also have the celestial specter build I mentioned along with a dual pistol diviner build, builds that I usually play for open world but will do in other content if I'm having a bad day, tired from work etc. Like Kash said, it's more about working out what works for you. Most players will not be doing benchmark damage but as long as you're doing your role and not dying most people will give it a pass in most content.

The celestial specter build I use was based on the heal spectre build from snowcrows after someone on forums suggested trying cele with spear, it can get up to 100% boon duration for alacrity and boons from wells and if I swap deadly arts for shadow arts it can heal if that's what the group needs. The dual pistol build I had on diviners for ease of use, I can swap to zerker and use the meta traits if needs be though. It'll do somewhere in the region of 12k DPS on diviner, 15-20k DPS on zerk, but the advantage of this build is that I can put 3 on autocast so there's no rotation which lets me focus on positioning and making sure I get the group quickness right. It's obviously not going to top a DPS chart but it's reliable DPS which is hard to mess up while still providing the group boons, which is sometimes better than forcing yourself to play something that you're not able to play well. 

[Dorian.8542]

On 8/25/2024 at 10:09 AM, FlawlezZ.3178 said:

Thief had the highest benching dps build by a large margin for the entirety of SOTO (power axe deadeye). But despite this, people have not been playing it (it's too hard to play). Spear is another weapon that has an extremely fast-paced and unforgiving rotation. Meaning, again, people will not play it because it's too hard to play. Please, also make simpler and strong builds that are more popular, like the recent Tempest, Virtuoso, Soulbeast and so on.

Definitely seconding this sentiment. I have a potential solution to this thankfully. The issue with spear as I see it lies in its over reliance on stealth attacks. There are two ways to combat this without removing the value of the rotation for people who enjoy a janky bench. 1. Move the initiative gain off the stealth attack and onto the final part of skills 2 and 3  (that way it rewards for doing the whole chain), or 2. Buff the everloving hell out of the spear autoattack.  The reason staff is so accessible is because even after you've drained initiative with staff 2, you still have an autoattack chain that maintains roughly the same damage. The reason pistol/pistol works is because with unload initiative gain you never run out of the ability to use that skill. Now while both have a really high damage floor, they also have a really low skill ceiling. You wont see those weapons pushing the bench charts. Conversely, axe is torqued beyond belief, but its damage floor is so low that you are either dropping nukes or doing less damage than environmental weapons. Spear has the chance to be something special, a damage floor a bit more reasonable than staff auto or unload spam, with a skill ceiling that will feel rewarding for players who like executing crazy rotations. I love spear thematically, and I want to see it be the weapon that has use basically everywhere that I know it can be.

Edited September 8 by Dorian.8542

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Hard is a bad word; I would say clunky.
Spear #2 animations, effects and icons make the full sequence hard to read; half the time I have no idea if I'm on the finisher skill, If I can chain with SA or #4. So it's just simpler to spam the skill indefinitely than mixing #2 and #3, #4, SA...
Same with #3,while on contrary effects are distincts enough, the forced sequence to *disable the dash spam restricts too much the flow; I think the "fix" on Shattered Assault was enough.

Plus there's some issues with quickness and some stealth skills if auto-attacks are on auto-cast; for example after Shattered Assault often the game queues an auto-attack rather than waiting and so reveals you. So you can't safely queue 1 (expecting SA) neither.
I though it was fixed after beta; but it still occurs too many often and make the rotation quite clunky for FFF or BQBK deadeyes, but even others specs in groups.

Edited September 8 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Asur.9178]

The problem isn't complexity itself or the chunkiness, or the general difficulty; it's the fact that these are not offset by an adequate payout and the payouts take a while to get to (ie: building up a burst). It's like Bladesworn and why people don't play it often; except worse (especially in PvP) since unlike Bladesworn, each individual hit is not as impactful.

It's also embarrassing how a spear, a long range weapon thematically used for the advantage of length, has 130 range on majority of the combo skills. This does not help it in any way, shape, or form in PvP.

Edited September 8 by Asur.9178

[Endo.1652]

Axe in pvp is super dumbed down. I can see it being different in pve because your goal is to find good timings to manage your initative and dmg. 

Spear is clunky to the point it barely functions unless your target is standing 100% still. It need better range/radius in melee.

Also there isn't very much benefit from doing mixed up combos like 233, 323, etc... you either want to 222 or 333 for max value of your combos. That design could be better tbh.

The 5 skill is just a channeled aegis stack that heals you slightly on hit. I guess thats fine though if the other skills got reworked to function better.

The projectiles should have projectile finishers. Even if its the 20% chance versions

[bq pd.2148]

7 minutes ago, Endo.1652 said:

Also there isn't very much benefit from doing mixed up combos like 233, 323, etc... you either want to 222 or 333 for max value of your combos. That design could be better tbh

i think the problem here is that half the skills effect is locked behind a condition from the previous skill in the chain, which as anet said in the preview can be gained otherwise. yet it effectively still means if you do not get it otherwise you are going to spamm the same skill.
personally i think it would be more interesting if the secondary effects were less a reward/punishment for getting the conditions 'right', but rather more variety by offering different secondary effects based on the skill chain so far (or at least previous skill in the chain).

for competitive specifically we have the added issue that what tracks your bonus through the chain is a condition on the enemy cripple -> immob   and vuln -> weakness. would be better if that was not enemy dependent. the biggest hit 2c, also has the issue that if you miss the cripple in the lead attack, you cannot even get the immob for the finisher without weaving in a 4.

[Endo.1652]

34 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

personally i think it would be more interesting if the secondary effects were less a reward/punishment for getting the conditions 'right', but rather more variety by offering different secondary effects based on the skill chain so far (or at least previous skill in the chain).

Yes exactly this! That idea would give the weapon so much life and flavor. Your combo chains end up feeling like actual combo chains.

[UnsignedRobin.8762]

It's really a shame. Using the spear is super fun, but i can not reach the damage output as with staff. Not even close. I think the main reason for that is the tight rotation (especially with quickness). If you delay your input slightly, then you will be punished hard. Of couse each "wrong" button is also rewarded with several tousands decrease in dps, but that's not so bad. After several visits to the golem i had the feeling that i pulled off the rotation quite good, but still nowhere near the same dps as with staff. I'm not gonna play spear, because i feel like i don't pull my own weight in a raid groups, when i can't even compete with boon dps builds.

I know - it's my own skill issue. But i feel like the punishment for small mistakes is way too high.