Thoughts on anet nerfing other stats on armour in the future

[Kate.3679]

hey, if they annihilate minstrels with it, that's fine by me

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

👉 Remove Boon Duration from gear 👈

[H K.4057]

16 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Mostly because those were that stats that  forum roamers were complaining about besides celestial. I guess a bunch of posters here like powe vs power duels in a game mode designed for mass scale objective capping, for some reason.

This cele nerf has nothing to do with roaming. They are trying to stop 4-support groups for large scale fights. Roaming is not and has never been a supported play style, and any WvW balance changes will be made without roaming in mind.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

5 minutes ago, H K.4057 said:

This cele nerf has nothing to do with roaming. They are trying to stop 4-support groups for large scale fights. Roaming is not and has never been a supported play style, and any WvW balance changes will be made without roaming in mind.

True. I don't think we've seen any real balance considerations for roaming play yet, although they have acknowledge open field and roaming fights in the live streams. 

I think the balance team has done a good job of not being overly influenced by complainers or losing sight of objectives in WVW, but they do seem to be listening to our feedback a bit more than in the past. I'm curious where it's going.

[Kulvar.1239]

7 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

They should first normalize "Boon Duration" / "Condition Duration" in runes to Concentration/Expertise. 

The current system gives +10% Boon/Condition Duration too much, that's 150 free stats. 

The other side of the problem is the amount of boons available, needing less Concentration to be effective. Nerf boon spam, normalize Runes and then they might actually have to implement prefixes with Concentration as a main stat, which we only have Diviners of currently. 

Yep, it should be ???/35/???/65/???/125 expertise or concentration.

It would even fix the issue with the Superior Rune of the Chronomancer giving 175 power, 100 precision, and 10% boon duration,
when the Superior Rune of the Pack meanwhile is providing better bonus with 175 power, 125 precision, and 15% boon duration.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Giving WvW the sPvP treatment is a bad idea. If anything add in more combinations if needed. The we are testing new tech fore warning is a bad sign. That's before you confuse some of the player base that looks at their gear and sees one thing, changes game mode and then have no idea of what just happened. If you are going to remove stats, remove it in all game modes. PvE included. 

[Dawdler.8521]

29 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

If you are going to remove stats, remove it in all game modes. PvE included. 

Dont they just use 3-stat in PvE for max damage anyway? 

But if so I agree with you, no more 4-stat and cele, only 3-stat like the way the game was meant to be played! 🫡

Edited Monday at 05:53 PM by Dawdler.8521

[ArchonWing.9480]

6 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Dont they just use 3-stat in PvE for max damage anyway? 

Vipers is used until you max out on condi duration and then yes 3 stat business as usual.

Though for most players , Minstrel (for supports) and trailblazers/Cele is still more practical even in instanced content since they won't be able to speedrun anyways and looking to farm, meaning not dying  and resetting is more important Except for the fights that aggro based on toughness but that's only in a few select raids. But the average player is so bad at dps you could probably wear anything and beat them.

Besides toughness aggro mechanics, I always thought Harriers was a dumb stat.  You become glass to heal/boon a little more and do a smidgen more damage which loses to Cele anyways. But if you do more damage, you won't need to heal as much.

It would be kinda funny to see what would happen if they nerfed Cele in pve too only for a little though...

Edited Tuesday at 12:00 AM by ArchonWing.9480

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The sets I expect to see the WvW hit are Minstrels, Nomads, and Trailblazer.  The zergs rely on boons and healing to function far more than damage, so when players complain that ZvZ is just two minstrel groups flopping against each other they'll get nerfed.  Nomads for the same reason.  Trailblazer is going to make roaming incredibly toxic after the celestial nerfs.  

[Cyninja.2954]

18 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

oh you see...about that...the "cele has the most stats therefor it is the best stat set" argument doesn't apply over there. I'm so sorry.

 

While you are trying to make a funny, that is actually correct.

Defensive stats lose value far differently in PvE than in competative modes by nature of what you fight. Turns out scripted opponents and ai on the level of GW2 encounters can be fought without need for any defensive stats once mastered (and every where else celestial is immediately back in the  spotlight).

Specializing into a role as such still makes enough of a difference depending on which skill level of play one is at. Celestial overall stats minus defensive stats and the lack of specialization bonus in damage calculations against  tens of millions of hp bosses versus a few thousand hp thus makes it less appealing for high end play.

Meanwhile as far as covering overall survival, damage, group utility, celestial beats out all other stats in PvE too, which is why the developers decided to make it the go-to stat for level 80 boosts.

Edited Tuesday at 05:15 AM by Cyninja.2954

[Cyninja.2954]

52 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The sets I expect to see the WvW hit are Minstrels, Nomads, and Trailblazer.  The zergs rely on boons and healing to function far more than damage, so when players complain that ZvZ is just two minstrel groups flopping against each other they'll get nerfed.  Nomads for the same reason.  Trailblazer is going to make roaming incredibly toxic after the celestial nerfs.  

The sets which will see use will be the same as the ones before the celestial buff:

- power, both as full zerker and marauder for both blob and roaming

- minstrel for supports

- celestial for roaming builds with innate high boons uptime as well as weaker blob/zerg players 

- trailblazer for condi roaming builds which are anti power spike

The main difference now will be:

1. Less celestial in zergs, which means less condi pressure overall making cleanse reliance less of a factor

2. Trailblazer in roaming means more counter play with condition cleanse

The meta for roaming will be once again: power builds > power builds with sufficient cleanse > condi builds > power builds.

Exactly as it was before 2021.

Edited Tuesday at 05:16 AM by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

 

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Specializing into a role as such still makes enough of a difference depending on which skill level of play one is at.

You don’t say…

I was under the impression that “more stats = better.” Doesn’t matter what skills are on your bar or what build you run or what enemies you fight. 

This is the reason people gave. Remember? Oh but now you don’t remember? How convenient. If I remember correctly You gave this reason several times yourself.

Thats the real funny.

Edited Tuesday at 07:12 AM by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You don’t say…

I was under the impression that “more stats = better.” Doesn’t matter what skills are on your bar or what build you run or what enemies you fight. 

This is the reason people gave. Remember? Oh but now you don’t remember? How convenient. If I remember correctly You gave this reason several times yourself.

Thats the real funny.

Read again what I wrote, then don't cut out HALF of what I wrote and try to make a point.

Specializing AND having less effective stats goes hand in hand. Sad to see you having to resort to such levels to "defend" your bad joke.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Specializing AND having less effective stats goes hand in hand.

Less effective stats...can you translate what this is supposed to mean? what is "an effective stat."

1)  think maybe you mean "Specializing AND having less stats goes hand in hand" -- there's no "effective" whatever that is supposed to mean. when you specialize, you have less stats. thats how stat sets have so far been built, with that logic in mind.

2) What does your response have to do with what i said again? the argument "more stats = better" means that in PVE, celestial should be meta too... because it has the most stats in the whole game. This argument conveniently doesn't apply to PVE, therefor the statement "more stats = better" is at some basic level false...that more stats does not always mean the stat set is better.

Edited Tuesday at 07:28 AM by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

25 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Less effective stats...can you translate what this is supposed to mean? what is "an effective stat."

1)  think maybe you mean "Specializing AND having less stats goes hand in hand" -- there's no "effective" whatever that is supposed to mean. when you specialize, you have less stats. thats how stat sets have so far been built, with that logic in mind.

2) What does your response have to do with what i said again? the argument "more stats = better" means that in PVE, celestial should be meta too... because it has the most stats in the whole game. This argument conveniently doesn't apply to PVE, therefor the statement "more stats = better" is at some basic level false...that more stats does not always mean the stat set is better.

Yeah I am not going down that road. If you don't understand effective stat or let's phrase this so you might understand: useful stat, then I don't need this argument.

I explained the most basic here: defensive stats. I didn't even go into details like toughness on opponents reducing effective stats on power builds in WvW (which given 600 toughness difference on PvE bosses can already switch favor of power to condi and celestial gives more than that is irony of its self).

Celestial is not meta in PvE because a fraction of its stats does not add value on certain levels of play. Again, if you can't assign value to stats based on how useful they are, then I won't waste my time on this conversation. Also the statement"more stats = better" is a short form for "more useful stats = better" which holds true in WvW and PvE. If you brought out a stat set with 1 million concentration or precision, that set would be subject to the same rules.

Suffice to say: any player which can make that distinction will understand.

Edited Tuesday at 07:51 AM by Cyninja.2954

[One more for the road.8950]

When you're min-maxing, cele is not your friend.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, One more for the road.8950 said:

When you're min-maxing, cele is not your friend.

Depends on what you are min-maxing for. If you are min-maxing for survival, it's not. If you were min-maxing for damage, it is not. If you are min-maxing for multiple things, it is.

Min-maxing is not focusing on a sole thing. It's maximizing for a set amount of parameters.

EDIT: though I will concede that this can be up to personal definition. Min-maxing for 1 person can mean maximize in 1 area, while it can be synonymous with optimizing for another, which would be what I am referring to.

Edited Tuesday at 07:59 AM by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Also the statement "more stats = better" is a short form for "more useful stats = better" which holds true in WvW and PvE. If you brought out a stat set with 1 million concentration or precision, that set would be subject to the same rules.

Last time i checked most conditions aren't useful in WvW Zerg (and according to you neither is healing power) thus making conditions stats and healing power not useful and therefor celestials "not the best" according to this new definition for the phrase you conveniently invented just now.

It's obvious here though that you are saving face, redefining what people were saying... warping the argument into stuff I was saying for instance :  Yes, bringing 1 million precision is bad...this counter argument is also one of the multitude of reasons why the "more stats = better" argument was false that people, you included conveniently ignored when it suited you.

I said this in another thread a couple months ago and I quote :

"What you're going to hear from people is that Celestial stats have more total stats (~5112) than the others (4 stat : ~3610, 3 stat ~3302) and therefor this is what makes it OP. It sounds reasonable. but it obviously fails to account for force multiplication (force multiplication meaning, that one is augmented by the existence of other players in groups, or how traits interact with elements in the game non-trivially, such as diminishing returns, hard limits, or multiplicity and exponential relations).

Right like...imagine if I'm a game dev and i made two different announcements in two different parallel universes:

1) I'm going to buff everyone's precision by 30,000

2) i'm going to buff everyone's precision by 1,000,000

Anything above 2600 makes no difference. So would people consider announcement 2, to be more OP than announcement 1 just because it has more stats? No logical person, knowing about the hard limit behavior of critical chance would think so. This is yet another case in n that shuts down induction for the argument..."

Edited Tuesday at 09:01 AM by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[One more for the road.8950]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Depends on what you are min-maxing for. If you are min-maxing for survival, it's not. If you were min-maxing for damage, it is not. If you are min-maxing for multiple things, it is.

Min-maxing is not focusing on a sole thing. It's maximizing for a set amount of parameters.

EDIT: though I will concede that this can be up to personal definition. Min-maxing for 1 person can mean maximize in 1 area, while it can be synonymous with optimizing for another, which would be what I am referring to.

Yeah, when I am talking about min-maxing I am talking about things like dps, crit chance, specific roles or getting the most out of everyone in a comp. I tend to never do all-round builds even when roaming in WvW. I haven't really used cele at all, I don't like sacrificing the things I prefer to play up to.

Edited Tuesday at 09:25 AM by One more for the road.8950

[Lyralia.2945]

To be fair, that 30000 precision example can be used to buff other stats with food and certain traits (a warrior using wounding precision would then be maxed out on expertise for example) but I get what you mean.

One huge advantage of Cele is that the boon duration and precision translates into way more damage than it shows on the gear itself due to so many ways to turn crits and hits into might, which buffs the relatively small power and condition to a reasonable amount (and in some builds more than reasonable due to the games many ways to sorta move stats around in funky ways).

A hilarious example is instant 25 might with NO traits or weapon skills that grant might by simply taking superior+major strength sigils (which stack..)

Would otherwise be reasonable, but due to the excess of other stats and this allowing you to take other traits and weapons you otherwise might not, the benefit is clear. Which is why the cele change is good.. it was just way too flexible on too many builds and was able to give way more stats than it even should have on paper, and on paper it was already nutty.

------

As far as people supporting nerfing other gear simply due to it having survivability.. they have no damage or flexibility. If you can't kill those guys while they aren't able to fight back, maybe these competitive modes aren't your speed. If you are having trouble picking large groups, do what I do and just use scorpion wire (or whatever similar thing your class has but lets face it, most of you complaining about other sets are roamers like me so you have an equivalent skill or trait with this purpose) or follow them and wait for an opportunity. It is genuinely silly to expect our opponents to give up support playstyles just so we can get free kills for some dumb kill reel video. Kill their friends first or separate them. Fight like a lion. Separate the herd. Don't blame the game. And don't give anet an easy out to "balance" with less effort because we have all seen what that ends in.

Edited Tuesday at 12:51 PM by Lyralia.2945

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Last time i checked most conditions aren't useful in WvW Zerg (and according to you neither is healing power) thus making conditions stats and healing power not useful and therefor celestials "not the best" according to this new definition for the phrase you conveniently invented just now.

It's obvious here though that you are saving face, redefining what people were saying... warping the argument into stuff I was saying for instance :  Yes, bringing 1 million precision is bad...this counter argument is also one of the multitude of reasons why the "more stats = better" argument was false that people, you included conveniently ignored when it suited you.

I said this in another thread a couple months ago and I quote :

"What you're going to hear from people is that Celestial stats have more total stats (~5112) than the others (4 stat : ~3610, 3 stat ~3302) and therefor this is what makes it OP. It sounds reasonable. but it obviously fails to account for force multiplication (force multiplication meaning, that one is augmented by the existence of other players in groups, or how traits interact with elements in the game non-trivially, such as diminishing returns, hard limits, or multiplicity and exponential relations).

Right like...imagine if I'm a game dev and i made two different announcements in two different parallel universes:

1) I'm going to buff everyone's precision by 30,000

2) i'm going to buff everyone's precision by 1,000,000

Anything above 2600 makes no difference. So would people consider announcement 2, to be more OP than announcement 1 just because it has more stats? No logical person, knowing about the hard limit behavior of critical chance would think so. This is yet another case in n that shuts down induction for the argument..."

Just as expected. Deflecting, missquoting and lack of knowledge.

I never said healing power is useless. I said your healing power optimizer was useless. I explained in that thread why that is the case.

You not understanding conditions in WvW is again a you issue. Given we are in a celestial conditions meta with some zergs, that just tells me you haven't played WvW in a long time. Might want to brush up.

No need to save face on my part, my previous comments explained perfectly what was meant and said. I could also have gotten more technical with cost-benefit analysis per stat per mode etc but itbseems everyone understood what I said except you. Again a you and not me issue.

Then again, I am not the one drawing parallels between spvp and removal of stats to nerfing of stats in WvW, which past you would have taken serious issue with given one reduces the amount of possible builds while the other does not. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I never said healing power is useless. I said your healing power optimizer was useless. I explained in that thread why that is the case.

Cyninja, you said this and i quote:

"...Congratulations, you've proven what everyone already knew: healing power brings poor results per point (and I was being generous with the modifiers already).

healing is NOT the primary stat WvW healers/supports are built around in todays meta. It is far more significant to cleanse, boon, survive as long as possible as support, than heal for a few more hit points (at the expense of the earlier)."

According to the earlier version of you : healing power, the stat, sucks.

Worth mentioning how wrong some of that is anyway... which leads to...

Quote

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You not understanding conditions in WvW is again a you issue. Given we are in a celestial conditions meta with some zergs, that just tells me you haven't played WvW in a long time. Might want to brush up. 

...Leads to this level of delusion. Bro is standing out here saying we live in a condi-meta 

🤣 brah

I rarely use emoji's but I'm genuinely cringing. Honestly if anyone listens to you, I feel bad for them.

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:53 PM by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Cyninja, you said this and i quote:

"...Congratulations, you've proven what everyone already knew: healing power brings poor results per point (and I was being generous with the modifiers already).

healing is NOT the primary stat WvW healers/supports are built around in todays meta. It is far more significant to cleanse, boon, survive as long as possible as support, than heal for a few more hit points (at the expense of the earlier)."

According to the earlier version of you : healing power, the stat, sucks.

Worth mentioning how wrong some of that is anyway... which leads to...

...Leads to this level of delusion. Bro is standing out here saying we live in a condi-meta 

🤣 brah

I rarely use emoji's but I'm genuinely cringing. Honestly if anyone listens to you, I feel bad for them.

Yes, poor results = useless. /s

Just wow. Not to mention I gave examples as to why healing power is not the primary stat which healers are concerned about, which remains true. Which compounded by the limited stat choice for healer in WvW is even more true. Let's omit all that and once again basically lie to try to make a point.

If your math abilities are as good as your ability with language...

Edited Tuesday at 05:58 PM by Cyninja.2954

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

29 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, poor results = useless. /s

So are you saying that healing power is actually not useless now?

Quote

Not to mention I gave examples as to why healing power us not the primary stat which healers are concerned about, which remains true.

How about you just put the money where your mouth is and just run a zerg that uses no healing power if it is so poor? why bother having any, when you could just go damage, and and some boons. 

Inb4 your com begs for more healing lol. I love hearing that one for sure.

Quote

If your math abilities are as good as your ability with language...

Just to quote what you said in that thread again:

"Outgoing Modifier: 1 (almost no skill has this high a modifier. In fact most are between 0.15 and 0.3, especially for WvW)"

You didn't even know the difference between an outgoing heal modifier, and a skill coefficient.

There's also just generally speaking countless times, where someone like me can easily identify when you don't understand a subject such as calling a multipliers numbers that start from a base *1.0, when in mathematics a multiplier is just a number multiplied with some other number). Thing is i have enough decency to not point out all the time how little about math that you know...cause the point of a useful forum conversation is to just prove the argument wrong with logic, not nitpick over what is a very obvious set of limits over what you know. Please don't pretend like you do math, you're not even in the same ballpark as me. There's plenty of people outside of my ballpark (Look up people like Johnathon Gorard who are major major math nerds), and i don't walk around acting like they don't know mathematics.

Edited Tuesday at 06:24 PM by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

yep minstrels should go