Daggers need redo and "Backstab"

[Swagger.1459]

Overall, both daggers need complete reworks because they are really mediocre weapons (especially in wvw and spvp) comparatively, but there also needs to be some extra umph to them too… We really need to get our own cool “naturey” version of the “Backstab” skill, but not exactly like “Backstab”, though, more like a stealthy “frontstab” that does a major critical (ya know like up to like 20k on thief). It should also critical like that from the flank too. This would be very balanced because we have this in-game already and the devs are cool with it.

I’m thinking we just add a lot of heavy hitting skills, and some evades, and more movement skills and target tracking and some stealth skills… So something like this revised idea…

Dagger 1- Groundwork Gouge- Add target tracking. 3 targets.

1- Leading swipe – 3 targets.

1- Serpent Stab- Add evade. 3 targets.

FREE Skill from stealth (Just like Backstab)- “Nature Stab” aka Deadly Delivery- 1 target.

Dagger 2- Double Arc- 3 targets.

Dagger 3- Instinctive Edge- 3 targets. “Nature Step” (Just like Steal). Add evade. 10s stealth on hit. 1,200 range. This is the set-up skill for “Nature Stab”.

Dagger 4- Dagger Barrier- 5 targets. AoE damage. Bleeding. Reflects projectiles. Stability. 300 radius. You can move.

Dagger 5- Port-O-Potty- Create a “nature” portal and port to target. 300 radius. 5 target AoE “nature” damage explosion. 1,200 range port. EDIT- This is a ground target skill that can be used on walls and cliffs just like some thief and mesmer skills.

5- Port back to original spot

…Perfection

[ProtoMarcus.7649]

As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

[Vavume.8065]

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

Well instead of backstab there could be a condition burst attack, call it "Rupture", that puts a ton of conditions on the target, something that involves skilled play would be welcome because quite frankly right now daggers are faceroll for kids.

[Swagger.1459]

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

The problem right now is that we will get eaten alive if we attempt to melee in wvw and spvp. Slowly ticking away with condis will get us smashed by any decent player using a decent melee build.

Being in melee has a ton of risks, and daggers are currently doa unless drastic changes are made.

[Skuzz.6580]

All these ideas could be very nice to have in the future, but nothing major will change before PoF. The only thing they can do in this short time is just increase the power scaling on them

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

imo, they should make the conditions very short duration, like 1-2s and have several stacks, so it is a condi burst weapon. Currently 3s durations are just terrible, compare it to warrior sword with 8s base duration bleeds or anything else really. Instead of making it longer durations, reduce the durations and increase the stacks so the weapon is very unique, it's condi based, but you can't realistically cleanse the conditions from it because they do their damage instantly. Lots of other condition applications from Ranger are long lasting, so they would be able to be cleansed, but make the dagger a condi burst weapon that you need to continue attacking to deal damage but also has the benefit of doing all its damage immediately. It would be truely hybrid then and hybrid would have a decent place since speccing for it would allow you to do burst damage to any target regardless of armor.

• Groundwork Gouge - 5 vulnerability for 2s, 2 might for 2s.
• Leading Swipe - 3 bleeds for 2s, 2 might for 2s.
• Serpent Stab - 3 Poison for 2s, 2 might for 2s.
• Deadly Delivery - 5 vuln, 3 bleeds and 3 poison for 2s.
• Double Arc - 6 Bleeding and 6 Poison for 2s, 3/4s evade. 6s CD.
• Instinctive Engage - 450 range leap finisher, 3s quickness, 1/2s Daze, 2 ammo. 15s CD.

[Razor.9872]

Personally, I don't think dagger needs a backstab. Instead, I think the first 3 hits of the auto should have no cast-time (like necro dagger). The 2nd skill needs to be a single, hard-hitting short-range dash (like hiltbash/heartseeker), and the 3rd skill needs a tiny daze to synergize with SB minors.

[Aleksander Suburb.4287]

Dagger auto attack must increase in speed or precision (unblockable, immo at 4 or something like that)

Dagger need a great extra not just "more of autoattack". A source for resistance would be nice or a remove of enemy endurance or boon cleanse.

Skill 3 seems cool, but the short leap was very clunky. Often ranger stopped after leap, that you was slower with leap than without.

[Sartharina.3542]

All I want for Dagger is for its damage to be appraised, and a dodge on Dagger 2, so we can spin and stab with the right hand, then spin and stab with the left hand. ANd have Dagger 3 have its range increased.

[Substance E.4852]

An interesting idea for dagger 2 would be for it to transfer conditions to the target rather than just being a harder hitting auto attack.

If they want to go whole hog and make it a condition weapon then it might as well be a good pvp weapon. We already have axe for pve.

[extremexhero.9178]

How about just get rid of the first attack on auto and give 3 a disengage option after that applies confusion and vulnerability? I get that a soul beast would go all in for the damage but a smart beast would also disengage when faced with a threat and wait for opening.

[Aleksander Suburb.4287]

No, pls no movement skill in an auto attack. sword was so bad in first place. With every attack you fell from a cliff or something :angry:

[Aomine.5012]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

The problem right now is that we will get eaten alive if we attempt to melee in wvw and spvp. Slowly ticking away with condis will get us smashed by any decent player using a decent melee build.

Being in melee has a ton of risks, and daggers are currently doa unless drastic changes are made.

Yes, Anet just fail to realize what makes a melee weapon works in WvW/ PVP.

For example, thief's dagger has multiple evade build in, and the class is build around stealth , evade, teleportation for their dagger to work.Ranger's dagger has nothing like that except one long cd evade off-hand which is completely unrelated to SBeast addition.

Scrapper hammer has lots and lots of evade and block built in it as well.The class also gets numerous ways of getting long duration protection from the traitline itself. (Scrapper trait)For ranger, SBeast does not really provide protection aside from a 90 cd one when your hp reach 0, and you need to sacrifice other line to get protection.

Revenant condition mace axe build works because of their ability to spam Resistance to immune condition.

They also have built in Aoe, good cc, gao closer, and teleportation on their melee build, which ranger's daggers have none.

SBeast dagger just fails to deliver those and make it a very generic lackluster random weapon.

[Warlyx.6732]

Dagger mh needs a boost all aroundDagger 2 needs something other than dmg

The autoattack make me wonder wth is going on, is slow and the dmg is lackluster

Animations ....errhhh what animations , no animals at all. :(

Dagger OH needs a look too

[extremexhero.9178]

My thoughts are to make dagger different in different range: range > 130 throw dagger auto with poison; range < 130: stab auto with vulnerability and criple. Then make that 3rd knockdown instead of swiftness. A true beast you can't escape B)

[Lazze.9870]

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

The fact that it is designed as a condi weapon (currently underwhelming one at that) is its biggest flaw in the first place. The elite specs suits a power build, especially in its current state and with its current traits, or at least some hybrid build. Either way, it lacks direct damage and ways to sustain yourself up close. The weapon should have been a power weapon from the get go, with evades on its leap without sacrificing damage. Iron out the very few conditions related stuff from the spec entirely and buff the power components of it.

The ranger got nothing for sustained power dps atm. We only got a couple of burst skills and a decent (in my opinion good) longbow. If they dagger stays condi, they should at least look at the autochains of the GS and the sword. The entire idea of those two weapons not having good sustained damage with their autos because of their other quirks doesn't hold water anymore. They're weaker than other "utility" weapon's autos. As a player that plays all three modes, I think it sucks that an otherwise perfectly good soulbeast GS build is held back in all game modes by its weak autochain that only got a neat evade going for it. It's weak damage already limits when it's worth swinging for that evade on the third attack.

[Swagger.1459]

Daggers need work. They are not good. This is the best idea.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Swagger.1459 said:Daggers need work. They are not good. This is the best idea.

Daggers need work thats right. Mostly dagger 2 and the offhand. But your proposal isnt the best idea nor would it be fitting as a standalone backstab weapon.

[anduriell.6280]

in my opinion dagger mh doesn't need a backstab at all. SB doesn't have the tools to make it work.

As i see it dagger mh needs:

• remove the 4th attack. is ridiculously slow and removing it it would improve the dps feeling. Move the last condi application to the one which only applies vuln.
• Dagger 2 needs something better. Add some long lasting torment (following the new no-burst condi mantra) and some single boon stealing. That would make this 2 be nice to cast when is needed (enemy poping resistance? protection? stability?)
• Dagger OH needs in 4 an interrupt and in 5 a 1200 range gap closer . Seriously.

But i think the biggest offender here is the fact we can't channel other pets while merged like the revenant does. It breaks most of the fun and the on pet swap active traits forcing us to play passive dumb.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

The fact that it is designed as a condi weapon (currently underwhelming one at that) is its biggest flaw in the first place. The elite specs suits a power build, especially in its current state and with its current traits, or at least some hybrid build. Either way, it lacks direct damage and ways to sustain yourself up close. The weapon should have been a power weapon from the get go, with evades on its leap without sacrificing damage. Iron out the very few conditions related stuff from the spec entirely and buff the power components of it.

The ranger got nothing for sustained power dps atm. We only got a couple of burst skills and a decent (in my opinion good) longbow. If they dagger stays condi, they should at least look at the autochains of the GS and the sword. The entire idea of those two weapons not having good sustained damage with their autos because of their other quirks doesn't hold water anymore. They're weaker than other "utility" weapon's autos. As a player that plays all three modes, I think it sucks that an otherwise perfectly good soulbeast GS build is held back in all game modes by its weak autochain that only got a neat evade going for it. It's weak damage already limits when it's worth swinging for that evade on the third attack.

You must not have been paying much attention the last few patches. Condi SB was completely off the walls (10k+ ticks in under two seconds from a ranged engage) with some absolutely bonkers defenses and utility, and right now power GS in skilled hands is one of the strongest power weapons in the game for melee in the PvP formats. Pretty easy to maul well into 30-40k and AA for 6-10k's self-buffed while dodging which is insanely strong.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@anduriell.6280 said:in my opinion dagger mh doesn't need a backstab at all. SB doesn't have the tools to make it work.

As i see it dagger mh needs:

• remove the 4th attack. is ridiculously slow and removing it it would improve the dps feeling. Move the last condi application to the one which only applies vuln.
• Dagger 2 needs something better. Add some long lasting torment (following the new no-burst condi mantra) and some single boon stealing. That would make this 2 be nice to cast when is needed (enemy poping resistance? protection? stability?)
• Dagger OH needs in 4 an interrupt and in 5 a 1200 range gap closer . Seriously.

But i think the biggest offender here is the fact we can't channel other pets while merged like the revenant does. It breaks most of the fun and the on pet swap active traits forcing us to play passive dumb.

I would actually put the boonsteal on dagger OH so it is available for core ranger.Dagger 2 would be nice if it would be a high stack poison application (similar to the bleeds atm) and your next pet attacks dazes the target.Mechanic would be pretty similar but it would work with predators cunning and twice as vicious.

[Lazze.9870]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@ProtoMarcus.7649 said:As mentionned in the original post on the old forums, Tweakings needed yes, backstab-burst like effect not needed.

It is a condi weapon it a hybrid nor power. Its designed for over time damage not burst

Copy paste from original post because I guess that's what's happening

---

Thief dagger MH is a hybrid weapon slightly leaning towards power spec while Soulbeast dagger MH is full condiHaving a bursty power effect wouldn’t fit.Ranger/Soulbeast daggers are underwhelming right now but they are not designed for heavy hitting.

• Auto attack simply needs to be much faster and have higher base Condi duration
• Double Arc (skill 2) needs an evade and a boost in numbers
• Instinctive Engage (skill 3) is in an okay spot – some more vuln wouldn’t hurt

Off Hand dagger needs some revisions too…

• Dagger 5 would GREATLY benefit from the ammo system and
• Dagger 4 could have double base damage and still be meh – it is meant to be used defensively though but still lacks something

The fact that it is designed as a condi weapon (currently underwhelming one at that) is its biggest flaw in the first place. The elite specs suits a power build, especially in its current state and with its current traits, or at least some hybrid build. Either way, it lacks direct damage and ways to sustain yourself up close. The weapon should have been a power weapon from the get go, with evades on its leap without sacrificing damage. Iron out the very few conditions related stuff from the spec entirely and buff the power components of it.

The ranger got nothing for sustained power dps atm. We only got a couple of burst skills and a decent (in my opinion good) longbow. If they dagger stays condi, they should at least look at the autochains of the GS and the sword. The entire idea of those two weapons not having good sustained damage with their autos because of their other quirks doesn't hold water anymore. They're weaker than other "utility" weapon's autos. As a player that plays all three modes, I think it sucks that an otherwise perfectly good soulbeast GS build is held back in all game modes by its weak autochain that only got a neat evade going for it. It's weak damage already limits when it's worth swinging for that evade on the third attack.

You must not have been paying much attention the last few patches. Condi SB was completely off the walls (10k+ ticks in under two seconds from a ranged engage) with some absolutely bonkers defenses and utility, and right now power GS in skilled hands is one of the strongest power weapons in the game for melee in the PvP formats. Pretty easy to maul well into 30-40k and AA for 6-10k's self-buffed while dodging which is insanely strong.

You realize you're replying to a comment that was made back in SEPTEMBER, before any of the later patches? You're the one not paying attention, lol.

And what did they do? They buffed GS auto (and sword, barely). Just like I said they needed to if dagger was to stay as a condi weapon. Meaning I was spot on. As expected.

[Eleazar.9478]

Lol looks like dagger is going to remain pretty lame. I just want them to give the thing some utility, ever try fighting guard, warrior, or necro with it? Lol might as well just not have a weapon in your hand.

Please I don't care if they make it a power weapon or Condi or what just give me the tools I need to use it already it's so bad

[Krispera.5087]

LOL, even the new braindead dps raid rotation doesn't use dagger anymore. I think it's time to give SBeast's dagger an identity and buff, ANet. Whatever you come up with it, but something.

It needs a trait related to it, evade on the leap and unforgiving conditions application/damage (I mean you're in melee range, just look at how unforgiving Spellbreaker's Daggers are... Why is a 900 range, 300 radius, 5 targets Sand Shade do better condi application ?). OH needs serious rework too, I don't even know where to start, but people posted good suggestions so far.

[ChartFish.1308]

As much as I want ranger to have more access to stealth...

@Swagger.1459 said:Dagger 3- Instinctive Edge- 3 targets. “Nature Step” (Just like Steal). Add evade. 10s stealth on hit. 1,200 range. This is the set-up skill for “Nature Stab”.

10 seconds? No way! Mesmer elite skill does 7 seconds of stealth, and that's an elite! Even thief dagger 5 only gives 3 secs of stealth. Be reasonable and suggest 3 seconds like any other skill (looking at hunter's shot ya'll)