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WvW/PvP Skill Split v2.0 today?

saerni.2584

By saerni.2584
in Player vs. Player

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Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

Additionally, we've decided not to unsplit anything for this release. After some internal conversation, we decided to keep this release more focused. However, for next balance release, we'll be evaluating our splits to see which should be made game-wide.@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

For clarification, PvP only changes include WvW?

Nope! Druid and Holosmith nerfs are not going to WvW for now.

Why is the team taking more steps to kill off the team healing aspect of Druid with the CA nerf?

I hope the “ not going to wvw for now” comment means never.

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BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

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@"Razor.6392" said:Hope mesmer gets NUKED.

"As per player requests, elusive mind now drops a small "nuke" that launches players, does 1 million damage, and leaves a pulsing radiation field (weakness and poison) that lasts for the length of the match"

-We felt that mesmer didn't have enough in its kit, and needed to be more rewarded for such difficult high-skill play.

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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Posted

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

Additionally, we've decided not to unsplit anything for this release. After some internal conversation, we decided to keep this release more focused. However, for next balance release, we'll be evaluating our splits to see which should be made game-wide.

I honestly pray there will be hefty damage reductions to thief and mesmer seen how hard you're falling on sustain/passive

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DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Holo nerfs are so warranted for WvW though.

Seriously you can't even get near one of these things if played well without just being autokilled unless you have allies.

Bro.

Engi barely exists in WvW. You want to eliminate it entirely?

I think you mean it barely exists in blobs. It's extremely common otherwise.

Currently, holo is commonly seen as the best 1v1 and small-group classes in the game right now. People are complaining a lot about mesmers right now, but honestly, the available counters to mirage are higher than to that of holosmith. It's relative strength in WvW is actually better than sPvP; build tweaks which work better in WvW/are not conducive to sPvP, and stat/food tweaks which can close some of its areas of weakness. It out-trades literally everything in the game if played reasonably well.

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mov.1246

mov.1246

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.

thank you so much for considering the feedback of the engi community and listen to our doubts. Holo may be a little overperforming in small circles in the spvp area, but wvw is a place where you can use huge terrain to fight.

btw, are there any plans to make grenades more useful in wvw? Grenades suffering to literally everything: tripple retalation damage, projectile hate and range.Just to make some examples: throw 3 grenades, hit 3 targets with it, all of them have retalation. 3x3x250dmg=2250 self damage for just use a single skill.Projectile hate is especially a big problem in big fights. While necros are still able to spam signs, wells, and shades, we are forced to wait until we can attack.And last is the range, sure 900 isnt little, but with 900 range you are always in dangerous range to the enemy backline while you attack.

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nicknamenick.2437

nicknamenick.2437

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@Egorum.9506 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

For clarification, PvP only changes include WvW?

Nope! Druid and Holosmith nerfs are not going to WvW for now.

Sure hope you keep the Ranger Signet of Stone active duration nerf in WvW. 6s of immunity to direct damage is ridiculous.

That one is still on the list. It's more of a side-grade than a nerf.

Agreed, that's one of the few changes I'm actually looking forward to. With Brutish Seals that's a burst negation that can be activated every 32 seconds. It'll help with the ranger rotation on dealing with those pesky thieves & mesmers that keep resetting to chew through opposing cooldowns.

Looking forward to seeing the revisions. I hope, if anything,
support
Druid in wvw is improved.

~ Kovu

edit- does this effect the trait? It should probably effect the trait.

The trait is 90sec for 2,5 immunity

It also shuts down every burst and gives the warrior 2.5 full seconds to reposition or counterburst

Its about ranger.. lolWarrior is 2 sec btw

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ILoveMonotony.1479

ILoveMonotony.1479

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

For clarification, PvP only changes include WvW?

Nope! Druid and Holosmith nerfs are not going to WvW for now.

That's a mistake. WvW isn't all about zerging. With ascended gear, no gear restrictions and food buffs Holosmith is completely busted in WvW.

And before the white knights come down on me: Engineer is the only profession I've ever extensively played. A lot of my time was spent in WvW.

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Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

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@Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

For clarification, PvP only changes include WvW?

Nope! Druid and Holosmith nerfs are not going to WvW for now.

That's a mistake. WvW isn't all about zerging. With ascended gear, no gear restrictions and food buffs Holosmith is completely busted in WvW.

And before the white knights come down on me: Engineer is the only profession I've ever extensively played. A lot of my time was spent in WvW.

And that's where you, and a few others dueling minded players, are wrong...

This is what wvw is about. (Hint: and it’s not about 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5 players fighting over small circles to 500 points)...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

Under Trivia...

“The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

“Dark Age of Camelot (DAoC) is a 3D medieval fantasy MMORPG, released on October 10, 2001 in North America and in Europe shortly after through its partner GOA. The game combines Arthurian lore, Norse mythology and Irish Celtic legends with a dash of high fantasy. It is set in the period after King Arthur's death and his kingdom has split into three parts which are in a constant state of war with each other. DAoC includes both Player versus Environment (PvE) and Realm versus Realm (RvR) combat.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm

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Ghos.1326

Ghos.1326

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Posted

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

Additionally, we've decided not to unsplit anything for this release. After some internal conversation, we decided to keep this release more focused. However, for next balance release, we'll be evaluating our splits to see which should be made game-wide.

Ben, You really need to iterate to your balance team that not everyone's opinion here really matters. Some of the changes you are not going to implement in certain environments are going to leave a few things really broken in terms of being overpowered. It is not the fault of your game, or your changes to the game made, that is ruining the wvw/pvp scene. it's the players. It's their lack of skill. Take some information into consideration, but do not take all.An example, but more for the pvp side, are all these people talking about the .5 seconds cast time for the shade skills. I pray to any god willing to listen and grant me my wish that you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT revert these changes. Because it will end up, again, being insta spam of 5 stacks of many condis each, an instant fear with no tells, which can then be followed up with more cc and more fear before you can even do anything to counter it. People hate to see their classes nerfed, especially when they've been overpowered and dominated the scene for so long. But what they don't realize is that some changes are absolutely necessary, if a chance for other players to counterplay is desperately needed.Keep this in mind, Ben, and to the balance team: You can't please everyone. So stop trying to.

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Ghos.1326

Ghos.1326

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@Curunen.8729 said:

In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

I hope that includes evaluating Elusive Mind with alternate solutions than exhaustion (which I'm sure you've probably seen all by now or made some more of your own). :)

In my opinion, I really hope not. I think exhaustion will be healthy as a change. It's not a fair scenario when you're fighting a mesmer that has access to unlimited stun break, all while being able to attack, evade, and rapidly regenerate their energy bar all to do it repeatedly. It will open up counterplay. Counterplay is good, and it promotes healthy gameplay, and more opportunities for others to grow in skill.

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Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

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@Ghos.1326 said:

In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

I hope that includes evaluating Elusive Mind with alternate solutions than exhaustion (which I'm sure you've probably seen all by now or made some more of your own). :)

In my opinion, I really hope not. I think exhaustion will be healthy as a change. It's not a fair scenario when you're fighting a mesmer that has access to unlimited stun break, all while being able to attack, evade, and rapidly regenerate their energy bar all to do it repeatedly. It will open up counterplay. Counterplay is good, and it promotes healthy gameplay, and more opportunities for others to grow in skill.

I'd rather not open the whole discussion again here in a general thread with everything that's already been said in multiple threads, but exhaustion is a dysfunctional solution for mirage. The frequent stunbreak access is the issue which is what should be targeted.

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Felipe.1807

Felipe.1807

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@saerni.2584 said:As per above title,

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 has mentioned a plan to receive feedback and post an updated list of changes for consideration.

Is this still the plan or is that likely next week?

We're still working on some additions. It's taking a bit longer than we hoped, but still planning on revising the list on the forums next week.

Quick preview:Druid nerfs are changing to PvP only.Holosmith nerfs are changing to PvP only.In progress: Evaluating Thief changes.In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

Additionally, we've decided not to unsplit anything for this release. After some internal conversation, we decided to keep this release more focused. However, for next balance release, we'll be evaluating our splits to see which should be made game-wide.

Why Druids and Holo changes are sPvP only? These both specs are broken on WvW, reason why most of roamers use these specs when playing...if they wont get a nerf I fail to see why other professions and specs should get one...

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Ghos.1326

Ghos.1326

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@Curunen.8729 said:

In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

I hope that includes evaluating Elusive Mind with alternate solutions than exhaustion (which I'm sure you've probably seen all by now or made some more of your own). :)

In my opinion, I really hope not. I think exhaustion will be healthy as a change. It's not a fair scenario when you're fighting a mesmer that has access to unlimited stun break, all while being able to attack, evade, and rapidly regenerate their energy bar all to do it repeatedly. It will open up counterplay. Counterplay is good, and it promotes healthy gameplay, and more opportunities for others to grow in skill.

I'd rather not open the whole discussion again here in a general thread with everything that's already been said in multiple threads, but exhaustion is a dysfunctional solution for mirage. The frequent stunbreak access is the issue which is what should be targeted.

Just to clarify, just because it's on multiple threads does not make it valid. The words of a million ignorant people have no comparison to the words of one wise man. But I respect your opinion, and I have stated mine.

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Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

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@Ghos.1326 said:

In progress: Evaluating Mesmer changes.

I hope that includes evaluating Elusive Mind with alternate solutions than exhaustion (which I'm sure you've probably seen all by now or made some more of your own). :)

In my opinion, I really hope not. I think exhaustion will be healthy as a change. It's not a fair scenario when you're fighting a mesmer that has access to unlimited stun break, all while being able to attack, evade, and rapidly regenerate their energy bar all to do it repeatedly. It will open up counterplay. Counterplay is good, and it promotes healthy gameplay, and more opportunities for others to grow in skill.

I'd rather not open the whole discussion again here in a general thread with everything that's already been said in multiple threads, but exhaustion is a dysfunctional solution for mirage. The frequent stunbreak access is the issue which is what should be targeted.

Just to clarify, just because it's on multiple threads does not make it valid. The words of a million ignorant people have no comparison to the words of one wise man. But I respect your opinion, and I have stated mine.

I can respect that. I'll restate some of it here for clarity:

Mirage can dodge when cced with or without EM.

This is crucial to consider when thinking about exhaustion. EM adds the ability to continue moving and casting with dodge. Without it you still get to evade anyway.

Many of cc effects are short duration. If a stun/daze/cc lasts less than 1second (less than the evade duration of a dodge) then it is likely more beneficial to dodge without EM while maintaining endurance regen. EM will do more harm than good in such a situation.

This means if you don't have EM and let's say dodge during a 1/2s stun, you'll only have to wait a fraction of a second before being able to move/cast again, and you'll maintain endurance regen. If you have EM you'll kitten yourself for 4s with zero endurance regen. Is the benefit of breaking short duration cc effects early really worth losing endurance regen for 4s? I personally don't think so.

This means with Exhaustion, EM would be a harmful trait in many situations, instead of not taking it. The only benefit it would have is condi cleanse. Otherwise why take a trait that's bad for you?

In this way a solution such as a 10+ second ICD on stunbreak portion only with UI indicator (ie different coloured endurance bar when stunbreak is on cooldown) would be far more sensible. There are other solutions such as turning all cc into a daze (allows movement but no skill casting, making EM a purely defensive trait) with no ICD, and so on.

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Holo nerfs are so warranted for WvW though.

Seriously you can't even get near one of these things if played well without just being autokilled unless you have allies.

Bro.

Engi barely exists in WvW. You want to eliminate it entirely?

I think you mean it barely exists in blobs. It's extremely common otherwise.

Currently, holo is commonly seen as the best 1v1 and small-group classes in the game right now. People are complaining a lot about mesmers right now, but honestly, the available counters to mirage are higher than to that of holosmith. It's relative strength in WvW is actually better than sPvP; build tweaks which work better in WvW/are not conducive to sPvP, and stat/food tweaks which can close some of its areas of weakness. It out-trades literally everything in the game if played reasonably well.

Holosmith needs a little toning down with its damage but not to the extent proposed by the splits thread. The initial thread had holosmith as getting its damage nerfed more than any other profession, suggesting holosmith is the hardest hitting profession in WvW and that's simply not the case. A good mesmer or thief will burst you down quicker than a good holosmith.

I'd be interested in knowing what build tweaks work better in WvW as I haven't been able to make heads or tails of holosmith builds since they split engi's sustain between Alchemy and Inventions.

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witcher.3197

witcher.3197

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Holo nerfs are so warranted for WvW though.

Seriously you can't even get near one of these things if played well without just being autokilled unless you have allies.

Bro.

Engi barely exists in WvW. You want to eliminate it entirely?

I think you mean it barely exists in blobs. It's extremely common otherwise.

Currently, holo is commonly seen as the best 1v1 and small-group classes in the game right now. People are complaining a lot about mesmers right now, but honestly, the available counters to mirage are higher than to that of holosmith. It's relative strength in WvW is actually better than sPvP; build tweaks which work better in WvW/are not conducive to sPvP, and stat/food tweaks which can close some of its areas of weakness. It out-trades literally everything in the game if played reasonably well.

Holosmith needs a little toning down with its damage but not to the extent proposed by the splits thread. The initial thread had holosmith as getting its damage nerfed more than any other profession, suggesting holosmith is the hardest hitting profession in WvW and that's simply not the case. A good mesmer or thief will burst you down quicker than a good holosmith.

I'd be interested in knowing what build tweaks work better in WvW as I haven't been able to make heads or tails of holosmith builds since they split engi's sustain between Alchemy and Inventions.

Holosmith needs to be butchered, not "toned down a little". Even before release it was painfully obvious to everyone just by watching the dev stream and reading the wiki that the base damage on photon forge skills is too high.

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