Should HoT maps be made less difficult?

[Feanor.2358]

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:they don't have to be made easier but I would like it if they weren't such a hard road block on the path to gen2 Legendarys (250 Crystalline Ore is like a mountain in the way of crafting a legendary..., yes I hate DS more than I could ever describe).

You can't be bothered to play DS 5-6 times for 1 legendary? Get serious...

that's roughly 10-12 Hours of doing something that is the furthest away from anything fun you can do in GW2. The only reason I play GW2 is because I enjoy playing it - I do however not enjoy playing DS. But don't worry, I did eventually collect enough Crystalline Ore since HoT release for my first Gen2 Legendary. Unfortunatly there are more that I would like to aquire but it's probably going to take me 2-3 Years minimum only because of DS. It's almost impossible for me to convince myself that the Legendarys are worth going through that meta over and over...

Everyone plays any game to enjoy playing it, aside from professional players. But fun is subjective. Some people like you don't like DS, others love it. And it's not like this is the only chore related to getting a legendary in this game. Mapping core Tyria takes a lot longer than your exaggerated estimate and unlike DS is very boring. So what, should anything anyone finds not fun be removed from the game? Then you'd end up with game having a button "Give me legendary". And where's the fun in that?

[Alga.6498]

It has been nerfed already too much, the HoTs maps are ok, today the maps are easier than it was when launched. Don't completely ruin the game to the very bottom.

[Rauderi.8706]

Not going to vote on the difficulty, necessarily. Yes, HoT is a kick in the teeth, and I warn people I bring into the game about it.But to make it "less difficult" isn't quite what I have in mind. "Allow for more counter-play" most certainly is, though. Some of the enemies need to be balanced so that a greater variety of tactics will work on them.And the zones themselves need to be far less closed off than they currently are. Looking at you, Dragon Stand.

[Echoherb.6528]

@ProtoGunner.4953 said:Really? Sorry but the backlash was huge and some enemies (shroom explosion 30k damage etc.) is just plain stupid overtuned damage.

I am by no means a noob, I play gw since 2006, I didn't have problems with the HoT maps. But I still found some enemies had totally out of place overtuned numbers which are not fun and make no sense at all. They found a good balance with PoF, vanilla is far too casual imho.

My thoughts exactly. There's really no reason for enemies to be doing that much damage.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Lord Kreegan.8123 said:

@deatine.2498 said:Well I pretty much hated HoT; not necessarily because of the much more difficult enemies, but the friggin navigation/where the waypoints are.I wouldn't mind if it had been advertised that HoT is much harder than the core game (guess I overlooked it?), because then I probably would not have bought HoT.

@"Goettel.4389" said:I sometimes wonder why people play MMOs if they won't group.

MMO does not necessarily mean "being

forced

to play together" just because all other MMOs did it that way. MMO simply means "there's lots of other actual people". What any specific game makes of that is a different story.

It was one of the defining things of the core game that you could do pretty much everything on your own if you wanted, but you could do it faster/better in a group. And I'm pretty sure it was intentionally designed that way.

People need to remember that "MMO" absolutely does not mean "ZERG Online", but mindless zergs are what are required for HoT.If you're part of a large guild that regularly runs HP trains or you were around when HoT was released and zergs were common, then HoT is/was great and wonderful. Otherwise -- be honest if you can set your ego aside for a while -- HoT sucks donkey dongs.

You should probably learn how the game is played before you make such obviously false statements. HP challenges are solo or small group content. The idea that you need a "mindless zerg" to defeat these challenges is patently false and completely ridiculous. But, of course, you think I'm being dishonest. Fortunately, I bring proof that even the toughest of these challenges can be done solo. And if I can do them solo, then that means plenty of other players can and most of the rest can manage these challenges in small groups - not massive zergs.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Rauderi.8706" said:Not going to vote on the difficulty, necessarily. Yes, HoT is a kick in the teeth, and I warn people I bring into the game about it.But to make it "less difficult" isn't quite what I have in mind. "Allow for more counter-play" most certainly is, though. Some of the enemies need to be balanced so that a greater variety of tactics will work on them.And the zones themselves need to be far less closed off than they currently are. Looking at you, Dragon Stand.

I'm curious what you mean by counter-play? This seems to indicate that you need either a specific type of build or that the enemies don't have sufficient weaknesses to be exploited? If so, I haven't seen it. I've had success with all kinds of builds in HoT from tanky healers to hybrids and full glass builds.

[Ardid.7203]

I managed most HoT HPs the same way:

• Bring enough CC.
• Be careful of the mobs around.
• Wait 2-5 minutes to get 1 or 2 more people before starting.

I did most Verdant Brink and Tangled Deepths HPs this way, with my exotic geared Mesmer, just two weeks ago. Mounts made it extremely easy to get to the HP points. No Zergs or trains were required.

[Rauderi.8706]

@Ardid.7203 said:I managed most HoT HPs the same way:

• Bring enough CC.
• Be careful of the mobs around.
• Wait 2-5 minutes to get 1 or 2 more people before starting.

I did most Verdant Brink and Tangled Deepths HPs this way, with my exotic geared Mesmer, just two weeks ago. Mounts made it extremely easy to get to the HP points. No Zergs or trains were required.

Don't be shy about abusing that apple tag. There's usually someone else on the map who needs those points too. :)

[Rauderi.8706]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Rauderi.8706" said:Not going to vote on the difficulty, necessarily. Yes, HoT is a kick in the teeth, and I warn people I bring into the game about it.But to make it "less difficult" isn't quite what I have in mind. "Allow for more counter-play" most certainly is, though. Some of the enemies need to be balanced so that a greater variety of tactics will work on them.And the zones themselves need to be far less closed off than they currently are. Looking at you, Dragon Stand.

I'm curious what you mean by counter-play? This seems to indicate that you need either a specific type of build or that the enemies don't have sufficient weaknesses to be exploited? If so, I haven't seen it. I've had success with all kinds of builds in HoT from tanky healers to hybrids and full glass builds.

Enemies aren't built the same way as players. They don't have endurance bars (Weakness is far less effective) when they dodge (looking at you Shadowleapers), many of HoT's enemies are constant "charge and knockdown", but Cripple doesn't slow movement skills anymore (it used to, and it should again, for PvP counterplay as well). With the wrong mob, Stability is a joke. Some enemies never get breakbars when they should, or the bar doesn't last long enough to wind up a single CC, which still doesn't do enough break damage. Blind doesn't do nearly enough in some cases, and that's always been an issue with Defiant enemies.Oh yeah, and Confusion got the meganerf, so there's that too. :skull:

So, the GW2 tactical meta is the same as it always is "kill it fast fast faster" in the hopes that you won't get knockdown chained to death or eat that big OHKO. It's not clever, it's stat bashing, and GW2 would be a much stronger game if it would more frequently permit actual tactical gameplay in its creature design.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

Do not nerf HoT. If you want an easy way to get hps play wvw

[TwilightSoul.9048]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:they don't have to be made easier but I would like it if they weren't such a hard road block on the path to gen2 Legendarys (250 Crystalline Ore is like a mountain in the way of crafting a legendary..., yes I hate DS more than I could ever describe).

You can't be bothered to play DS 5-6 times for 1 legendary? Get serious...

that's roughly 10-12 Hours of doing something that is the furthest away from anything fun you can do in GW2. The only reason I play GW2 is because I enjoy playing it - I do however not enjoy playing DS. But don't worry, I did eventually collect enough Crystalline Ore since HoT release for my first Gen2 Legendary. Unfortunatly there are more that I would like to aquire but it's probably going to take me 2-3 Years minimum only because of DS. It's almost impossible for me to convince myself that the Legendarys are worth going through that meta over and over...

Everyone plays any game to enjoy playing it, aside from professional players. But fun is subjective. Some people like you don't like DS, others love it. And it's not like this is the only chore related to getting a legendary in this game. Mapping core Tyria takes a lot longer than your exaggerated estimate and unlike DS is very boring. So what, should anything anyone finds not fun be removed from the game? Then you'd end up with game having a button "Give me legendary". And where's the fun in

that

?

I didn't say I want DS to be removed. I'd just like some sort of alternative to beeing forced into an event which I don't enjoy for roughly two hours 5-6 times for each Gen2 Legendary. Everything else doesn't feel like a chore to me at all since I can get pretty much everything else just by doing what I enjoy doing - except Crystalline Ore of course.

[SkullsandRoses.5803]

I completed HOT on a core Ranger (no elite spec) and hit up guild, map chat, LFG to help with champs etc. There are tons of people still doing metas and commanders doing HP runs which will often get you vistas and POIs as well.

Good luck!

[LONGA.1652]

Most of the enemy mobs are good now since Murder frogs got nerfed. Would love to see mastery that make jungle easier instead .Thou mounts are somewhat remedy to that . Because most of the map events are made to play with multiple people some of them are difficult.

Speaking from someone who have 6 HoT map completion toon. They are fine once you know the general route.

Map that need Tuning is Tangled Depth. Fed-Ex and unlimit mobs are turn off for most of Veteran. Because Fed-ex event > Scaling become ridiculous like you have to carry over 5 bundle and more if there just people passby. Chak swarming fragile target is no good as well. More easy escort events (No mordrem mobs , mushroom) help leading new players would be good as well

Dragon standThe Problem on Dragon stand lie in fact that it take 2 hour from start to finish to get Heroic choice chest and locking map from players make players rotation in the middle of META unappealng. So new map that have no people are abandon entirely. Make it that you don't have to sit trough whole meta to get Hero choice chest. Entering completed map with some item like proof that have time limit so you can comeback and loot DS later.

[Cifrer.6013]

HoT maps are mostly fine. The only one I have a problem with is TD and that's because of map layout, not enemy difficulty. I hate that map and still get lost there. That's more of a problem for me though as opposed to a problem with the game.

Yes, the content can be difficult, particularly if you don't have the masteries yet that make it easier. That is kind of the point though. It's designed for people who know how to play the game already. None of the content is extremely difficult for appropriately sized groups either. Champ hero points can be mostly solo or duo'd. Meta events are by their very nature group content.

If you're having that much trouble with the HoT content, you need to re-evaluate your approach is all. Some obvious exceptions apply, such as people with specific disabilities. I've played through the content solo on some characters and I've played through all of HoT duo with my girlfriend. Some things just make you need to look at how you're going about it and make some changes. That's a good thing. Challenges bring variety to gameplay by making you alter your tactics. It is by no means ridiculous however.

[Rauderi.8706]

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:I didn't say I want DS to be removed. I'd just like some sort of alternative to being forced into an event which I don't enjoy for roughly two hours 5-6 times for each Gen2 Legendary. Everything else doesn't feel like a chore to me at all since I can get pretty much everything else just by doing what I enjoy doing - except Crystalline Ore of course.

On the contrary, I would like DS to be more accessible! I'd love to be able to jump into a map and actually do the meta, instead of: squad surf for 15 minutes, taxi, taxi again, wait, die, pray, then maybe get into the map with the squad. It shouldn't be clock bound, but instead, lock a progressed map so that new maps can fill.

[Lord Kreegan.8123]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Lord Kreegan.8123 said:

@deatine.2498 said:Well I pretty much hated HoT; not necessarily because of the much more difficult enemies, but the friggin navigation/where the waypoints are.I wouldn't mind if it had been advertised that HoT is much harder than the core game (guess I overlooked it?), because then I probably would not have bought HoT.

@"Goettel.4389" said:I sometimes wonder why people play MMOs if they won't group.

MMO does not necessarily mean "being

forced

to play together" just because all other MMOs did it that way. MMO simply means "there's lots of other actual people". What any specific game makes of that is a different story.

It was one of the defining things of the core game that you could do pretty much everything on your own if you wanted, but you could do it faster/better in a group. And I'm pretty sure it was intentionally designed that way.

People need to remember that "MMO" absolutely does not mean "ZERG Online", but mindless zergs are what are required for HoT.If you're part of a large guild that regularly runs HP trains or you were around when HoT was released and zergs were common, then HoT is/was great and wonderful. Otherwise -- be honest if you can set your ego aside for a while -- HoT sucks donkey dongs.

You should probably learn how the game is played before you make such obviously false statements. HP challenges are solo or small group content. The idea that you need a "mindless zerg" to defeat these challenges is patently false and completely ridiculous. But, of course, you think I'm being dishonest. Fortunately, I bring proof that even the toughest of these challenges can be done solo. And if I can do them solo, then that means plenty of other players can and most of the rest can manage these challenges in small groups - not massive zergs.

You should probably realize that lots of people have lots of experience with this game SINCE RELEASE before you make such obviously ARROGANT statements. White knighting is fine and dandy when you're talking to 12-year old kids in grandma's basement using a credit card filched from mommy's purse, but adults see right through the kind of crap you're spouting.HoT has major problems. YOU are the one being patently dishonest... as you always are.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Lord Kreegan.8123 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Lord Kreegan.8123 said:

@deatine.2498 said:Well I pretty much hated HoT; not necessarily because of the much more difficult enemies, but the friggin navigation/where the waypoints are.I wouldn't mind if it had been advertised that HoT is much harder than the core game (guess I overlooked it?), because then I probably would not have bought HoT.

@"Goettel.4389" said:I sometimes wonder why people play MMOs if they won't group.

MMO does not necessarily mean "being

forced

to play together" just because all other MMOs did it that way. MMO simply means "there's lots of other actual people". What any specific game makes of that is a different story.

It was one of the defining things of the core game that you could do pretty much everything on your own if you wanted, but you could do it faster/better in a group. And I'm pretty sure it was intentionally designed that way.

People need to remember that "MMO" absolutely does not mean "ZERG Online", but mindless zergs are what are required for HoT.If you're part of a large guild that regularly runs HP trains or you were around when HoT was released and zergs were common, then HoT is/was great and wonderful. Otherwise -- be honest if you can set your ego aside for a while -- HoT sucks donkey dongs.

You should probably learn how the game is played before you make such obviously false statements. HP challenges are solo or small group content. The idea that you need a "mindless zerg" to defeat these challenges is patently false and completely ridiculous. But, of course, you think I'm being dishonest. Fortunately, I bring proof that even the toughest of these challenges can be done solo. And if I can do them solo, then that means plenty of other players can and most of the rest can manage these challenges in small groups - not massive zergs.

You should probably realize that lots of people have lots of experience with this game SINCE RELEASE before you make such obviously ARROGANT statements. White knighting is fine and dandy when you're talking to 12-year old kids in grandma's basement using a credit card filched from mommy's purse, but adults see right through the kind of crap you're spouting.HoT has major problems. YOU are the one being patently dishonest... as you always are.

How am I being dishonest (as always?)? I went to TD today and did an HP train that ran every single HP as well as all of the mastery strongboxes. I also went to AB. In AB there wasn't even a squad! The place was just so full of players doing HPs that I had help at chak, mushroom king, arrowhead, and Balthazar, as well as doing the gold guzzler and auran the golden ooze boss events and the meta. You think I'm making this up? It's like this every day! The HoT maps are popular! Just look at the poll results!

You want to talk about arrogant? You're the one telling players who enjoy HoT that they need to "set their ego aside" and "be honest" as if we're somehow making it up? Is it so hard to believe that many players enjoy HoT, find plenty of help when they need it, and have no particular difficulty with the place? Just because you don't doesn't mean you speak for everyone and the game needs to bend to your demands.

[squallaus.8321]

AliamRationem.5172 is pretty much right. HoT isn't that difficult. It only difficult to people who blindly copy raid meta builds with full zerker and don't know their class well enough to survive with those build. Its called learn to play.

[Echoherb.6528]

@squallaus.8321 said:AliamRationem.5172 is pretty much right. HoT isn't that difficult. It only difficult to people who blindly copy raid meta builds with full zerker and don't know their class well enough to survive with those build. Its called learn to play.

Nonsense, HoT is objectively difficult, especially with giant groups of enemies ganging up on you that do huge amounts of damage. I played a thief and could really only navigate that place by using stealth and skipping past everything. This is wearing mauraders exotics and actually knowing my class. It's clearly designed with group play in mind.

[squallaus.8321]

@Echoherb.6528 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:AliamRationem.5172 is pretty much right. HoT isn't that difficult. It only difficult to people who blindly copy raid meta builds with full zerker and don't know their class well enough to survive with those build. Its called learn to play.

Nonsense, HoT is objectively difficult, especially with giant groups of enemies ganging up on you that do huge amounts of damage. I played a thief and could really only navigate that place by using stealth and skipping past everything. This is wearing mauraders exotics and actually knowing my class. It's clearly designed with group play in mind.

Thieves have one of the best sustain trait in the game Invigorating precision in combination with signet of malice and a myriad of evades you shouldn't be dying to anything open world. Do you really need someone to post a video using a thief like AliamRationem.5172 did of his mesmer before you admit incompetence and stop wasting time and focus on improving instead?

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Echoherb.6528 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:AliamRationem.5172 is pretty much right. HoT isn't that difficult. It only difficult to people who blindly copy raid meta builds with full zerker and don't know their class well enough to survive with those build. Its called learn to play.

Nonsense, HoT is objectively difficult, especially with giant groups of enemies ganging up on you that do huge amounts of damage. I played a thief and could really only navigate that place by using stealth and skipping past everything. This is wearing mauraders exotics and actually knowing my class. It's clearly designed with group play in mind.

I have yet to see these giant groups of enemies that are every which way you go. Funny those that I did map completion fairly easily on a brand new character and only got help with the HP’s. In case you didn’t know, being considerably low level increases your aggro range. Much of how people are describing how difficult HoT was for them are doing so with exaggerations.

[Echoherb.6528]

What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

[Goettel.4389]

@Echoherb.6528 said:

@squallaus.8321 said:AliamRationem.5172 is pretty much right. HoT isn't that difficult. It only difficult to people who blindly copy raid meta builds with full zerker and don't know their class well enough to survive with those build. Its called learn to play.

Nonsense, HoT is objectively difficult, especially with giant groups of enemies ganging up on you that do huge amounts of damage. I played a thief and could really only navigate that place by using stealth and skipping past everything. This is wearing mauraders exotics and actually knowing my class. It's clearly designed with group play in mind.

Exactly, which is why it remains so popular.

[squallaus.8321]

@Echoherb.6528 said:What's interesting is when I ask this question in game in any of the map chats, I get the completely opposite response. Goes to show the difference between players who post on the forums and don't.

iI you want feel free to stay in queensdale for the rest of your gaming life. Or you can make an effort to improve yourself and train yourself in slightly out numbered siutations in HoT maps. They are harder than old tyria maps but no where near as hard as T3 or T4 fractals and raids. Learn to kite and cast skills at the same time, learn to mislead the dumb pve mobs in positioning with teleports, learn to take different utilities based on the situation, learn enemies attack patterns and predict where you should stand so you don't get hit. This isn't a dumb game like those trinity based mmos where you mostly just stand still and attack the enemies. No you need to be more engaging, dynamic and be more aware of your surroundings. A fight is not over until you are absolutely dead.

[Etterwyn.5263]

For now I'd say keep it as it is. Now with future living story maps and expansions, if the population dwindles too much then maybe rebalance it some.