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necro condi too oppressive, mesmer and elle just fine


Lexan.5930
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just an FYI to everyone, necro was doing waaaaaaayyyy too much condi damage last season with scourge and so anet toned down a lot of the condi that scourge can put out. But mesmers putting out 20k of burning, and elle's putting 20k of burning out, with fields and aoes that are just sitting on capture points, are totally fine, within where they should be.

oh and they both have invulns, and extra dodges and evades within thier class mechanics to avoid counterplay while they are doing all these conditions.have fun out there in sPvP kids :)

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Come on, just have a bit of empathy for those poor mesmers and elementalist, after all they got way less health than a necromancer and, if you listen to them, they are way more difficult to play than the necromancer will ever be. Which mean that if they pull out as much damage it's that they are skilled while the necromancer, whatever he does, do it in a skill less manner.

As for invuln, evade or dodge, it need skill! And never ever did anyone hear about a necromancer being skilled at timing it's numerous invuln, evade and dodge.

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Double standard...I'm not bothering anymore. it's clear Anet doesn't play at high level and don't consider builds and dps when balacing. I mean ok scourge is oppressive on Aoe and condis fine, it needed a nerf but get a longbow druid or soulbeast or deadeye and you can basically perma kill him at range. But if any other class has the same oppressive dps + invuln, dodges, blocks and mobility it's fine XDI'm just going to reroll mesmer, if anet wants that then let's all play mesmer ^^

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Mesmer has too many mitigation mechanics to cry about anything. Suffer silently or get nerfed after examination.

Ele is fine, but the other two culprits, scourge and any mesmer build, need heavy examination. Scourge has high reward for a relatively low risk (Losing shroud ) survival trade off. Mesmer just has high reward with low risk almost all the time. The coincidence that two overtuned classes are imbalanced against each other is not the issue.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Come on, just have a bit of empathy for those poor mesmers and elementalist, after all they got way less health than a necromancer and, if you listen to them, they are way more difficult to play than the necromancer will ever be. Which mean that if they pull out as much damage it's that they are skilled while the necromancer, whatever he does, do it in a skill less manner.

As for invuln, evade or dodge, it need skill! And never ever did anyone hear about a necromancer being skilled at timing it's numerous invuln, evade and dodge.

Why does everyone always bring the "nevro has mor health"-point

Thats bullshit.

  1. It doesnt have the same survivability other classes have
  2. It doesnt have the mobility other classes have
  3. It doesnt have the dmg other classes have

So having a little bit more health is just right and would justify one of the three points above. But all 3?

Thats just not right.For point one lets take ele as example. The selfhealing of an ele is crazy. And way too much for not investing into healpower.

Point two? Just look at mesmer,warrior,ele, ranger, guard,rev, ingi, and especially thief with like infinite condi cleanses (thats how it feels), stealth, leaps, teleports, evades

Point 3? Every other class does more dmg than necro. Ranger can kill necros from 1200 range without being touched and necro isnt even allowed to do big hits with its freaking slow attacks in melee range?

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:Come on, just have a bit of empathy for those poor mesmers and elementalist, after all they got way less health than a necromancer and, if you listen to them, they are way more difficult to play than the necromancer will ever be. Which mean that if they pull out as much damage it's that they are skilled while the necromancer, whatever he does, do it in a skill less manner.

As for invuln, evade or dodge, it need skill! And never ever did anyone hear about a necromancer being skilled at timing it's numerous invuln, evade and dodge.

Why does everyone always bring the "nevro has mor health"-point

Thats bullshit.

  1. It doesnt have the same survivability other classes have
  2. It doesnt have the mobility other classes have
  3. It doesnt have the dmg other classes have

So having a little bit more health is just right and would justify one of the three points above. But all 3?

Thats just not right.For point one lets take ele as example. The selfhealing of an ele is crazy. And way too much for not investing into healpower.

Point two? Just look at mesmer,warrior,ele, ranger, guard,rev, ingi, and especially thief with like infinite condi cleanses (thats how it feels), stealth, leaps, teleports, evades

Point 3? Every other class does more dmg than necro. Ranger can kill necros from 1200 range without being touched and necro isnt even allowed to do big hits with its freaking slow attacks in melee range?

@Lockheart.4312 if necro gets nerfed even more you wont be able to kill anything in 1v1 situations. Thats almost not possible right now.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Come on, just have a bit of empathy for those poor mesmers and elementalist, after all they got way less health than a necromancer and, if you listen to them, they are way more difficult to play than the necromancer will ever be. Which mean that if they pull out as much damage it's that they are skilled while the necromancer, whatever he does, do it in a skill less manner.

As for invuln, evade or dodge, it need skill! And never ever did anyone hear about a necromancer being skilled at timing it's numerous invuln, evade and dodge.

Why does everyone always bring the "nevro has mor health"-point

Thats kitten.
  1. It doesnt have the same survivability other classes have
  2. It doesnt have the mobility other classes have
  3. It doesnt have the dmg other classes have

So having a little bit more health is just right and would justify one of the three points above. But all 3?

Thats just not right.For point one lets take ele as example. The selfhealing of an ele is crazy. And way too much for not investing into healpower.

Point two? Just look at mesmer,warrior,ele, ranger, guard,rev, ingi, and especially thief with like infinite condi cleanses (thats how it feels), stealth, leaps, teleports, evades

Point 3? Every other class does more dmg than necro. Ranger can kill necros from 1200 range without being touched and necro isnt even allowed to do big hits with its freaking slow attacks in melee range?

The tone of the thread is sarcastic, I feel that my answer was in line with this tone so just reread my post with this in mind ;) .

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Lockheart.4312 if necro gets nerfed even more you wont be able to kill anything in 1v1 situations. Thats almost not possible right now.

I dont think thats the case there are a few match ups where necro excels in killing in 1v1 Even core necro has a fair shot at killing some one in a 1v1.The few exceptions would be

  • Long bow rangers of any kind
  • Mesmers if you cant figure them out quick enough to make good reads on them.
  • Theif if you never see them coming at all.

Maybe, Warrior if you cant out mind game them. But even then necro has alot of counter tools to warrior right nowIn team fights its harder though cause necros almost always get focused first.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lockheart.4312 if necro gets nerfed even more you wont be able to kill anything in 1v1 situations. Thats almost not possible right now.

I dont think thats the case there are a few match ups where necro excels in killing in 1v1 Even core necro has a fair shot at killing some one in a 1v1.The few exceptions would be
  • Long bow rangers of any kind
  • Mesmers if you cant figure them out quick enough to make good reads on them.
  • Theif if you never see them coming at all.

Maybe, Warrior if you cant out mind game them. But even then necro has alot of counter tools to warrior right now

Yes you can kill almost every class with necro. But not if they are exactly for roaming equiped.Warrior and holo might be the easiest ones for a reaper.

In team fights its harder though cause necros almost always get focused first.

True -.- if enemy is good and has a brain.

Tbh. Necro needs either huge changes or some more survivability buffs for pvp modes.

For pve some more dmg would be pretty nice ;)

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@Nimon.7840 said:

Tbh. Necro needs either huge changes or some more survivability buffs for pvp modes.

For pve some more dmg would be pretty nice ;)

Thats the hard part anet is known for mostly doing skill changes across both sides at the same timeWhich means if you ask for more damage in pve you get less sustain in pvp.If you ask for more sustain in pvp you get less damage in pve.

Its easier for them to change a skill and get it working in general rather than trying to make 2 skills one for each game mode.

The best thing we can hope for in pvp right now is that the next spec deals more damage than reaper is highly offensive, not slow, and has some from of defense regardless if its blocks, dodges, or high mobility blinks.OrThat every other profession gets severely toned down in some sort of revelation patch that anet suddenly chooses to do an that necros is not effected by said patch very much because it lacked the things that are being reduced in the first place.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Come on, just have a bit of empathy for those poor mesmers and elementalist, after all they got way less health than a necromancer and, if you listen to them, they are way more difficult to play than the necromancer will ever be. Which mean that if they pull out as much damage it's that they are skilled while the necromancer, whatever he does, do it in a skill less manner.

As for invuln, evade or dodge, it need skill! And never ever did anyone hear about a necromancer being skilled at timing it's numerous invuln, evade and dodge.

Why does everyone always bring the "nevro has mor health"-point

Thats kitten.
  1. It doesnt have the same survivability other classes have
  2. It doesnt have the mobility other classes have
  3. It doesnt have the dmg other classes have

So having a little bit more health is just right and would justify one of the three points above. But all 3?

Thats just not right.For point one lets take ele as example. The selfhealing of an ele is crazy. And way too much for not investing into healpower.

Point two? Just look at mesmer,warrior,ele, ranger, guard,rev, ingi, and especially thief with like infinite condi cleanses (thats how it feels), stealth, leaps, teleports, evades

Point 3? Every other class does more dmg than necro. Ranger can kill necros from 1200 range without being touched and necro isnt even allowed to do big hits with its freaking slow attacks in melee range?

FAR easier to burn through a health pool than through resists, blocks, invulns, shields, etc. But barrier you say....of course barrier helps, but that is like our #1 defense, and when caught in a field of death barrier still isn't nearly as good as blocks, etc.

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@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Double standard...I'm not bothering anymore. it's clear Anet doesn't play at high level and don't consider builds and dps when balacing. I mean ok scourge is oppressive on Aoe and condis fine, it needed a nerf but get a longbow druid or soulbeast or deadeye and you can basically perma kill him at range.But if any other class has the same oppressive dps + invuln, dodges, blocks and mobility it's fine XDI'm just going to reroll mesmer, if anet wants that then let's all play mesmer ^^

No one else can chain that many AoEs, or use boon corruption. In general that's okay because of class design, but siege/boons are part of game design. They would rather tweak 1 class than tweak 8.

Necromancer is still the meta bruiser. And Mesmer is still the meta 1v1/+1. Neither can do the others role even close to satisfactory so comparing them is a little silly. If there were a double standard it would be between Mesmer and Thief. Which with the nerf to Ellusive Mind has been somewhat addressed.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Double standard...I'm not bothering anymore. it's clear Anet doesn't play at high level and don't consider builds and dps when balacing. I mean ok scourge is oppressive on Aoe and condis fine, it needed a nerf but get a longbow druid or soulbeast or deadeye and you can basically perma kill him at range.But if any other class has the same oppressive dps + invuln, dodges, blocks and mobility it's fine XDI'm just going to reroll mesmer, if anet wants that then let's all play mesmer ^^

No one else can chain that many AoEs, or use boon corruption. In general that's okay because of class design, but siege/boons are part of game design. They would rather tweak 1 class than tweak 8.

Necromancer is still the meta bruiser. And Mesmer is still the meta 1v1/+1. Neither can do the others role even close to satisfactory so comparing them is a little silly. If there were a double standard it would be between Mesmer and Thief. Which with the nerf to Ellusive Mind has been somewhat addressed.

I was not comparing them mechanic wise, but on the potential to dish out oppressive dps. Scourge was suppose to be a support spec first then condi but it ended up doing too much condi damage and Aoe. Anet should have addressed the Aoe problem with many suggestion like reducing radius or making shade killable or movable instead they just tweak cooldown which only reduce the possibility of chaining skills in a proper way. They should have buffed the single dps on scepter and torch while reducing the effectiveness of shades just to support the scourge and his allies. The double standard stay infact mesmer can still dish out too much damage while having so many escape tools that in comparison to a thief it makes it ridicolus(so on this point you're right). So if Anet continue to nerf in the wrong way it will just destroy Scourge and since Reaper is not even viable in high competitive pvp, they're just gutting the entire class. I get oppressive dmg Aoe should be nerfed it is not fun for everyone, but outside that a silly way to keep melee classes away from scourge, scourge has nothing to defend himself with. See how easy it is to snipe with a ranger or deadeye. The lacking of usefull defensive mechanics create this Aoe monster because other than that scourge has no way to survive, since barriers the only mechanic anet should have used in a proper way are not. I'll try to make an example to explain this idea: think about a shade mechanic that purge conditions from allies and for each condition gives a small barrier(aoe support not damage), or purge conditions from allies to single send it through you're attack chain or skills in torch to the enemy (you still have support but with a single dmg counterpart to it). This 2 example gives an idea of how you can make usefull Aoe support and dmg, instead anet splitted condi cleanse, barrier and dmg in a way that force you to focus only on dmg part since the defence is not really there because let's be honest 2 big barrier like on the heal or sand shroud don't keep you alive that much. So the double standard in my opinion stay in the fact that Anet reworked mesmer and tweaked it a bit but it still oppressive, but doesn't rework necro and just nerf it.

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@"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:I was not comparing them mechanic wise, but on the potential to dish out oppressive dps.

DPS potential is based on mechanics, and damage was 1/4 of the issue. OP forgot the full quote.

  • "Scourge shades have long been a pain point in PvP and WvW with their rapid corruption and few tells for players to spot. In this update, we're introducing better tells for shade actions, reducing the more oppressive condition applications , and easing up on the punishing boon corruptions."

In addition:

  • "An example of why the obstruction requirement exists is that a Scourge being able to drop shades up on keep wall edges and attack anyone standing out of sight up there, shutting down nearly all forms of defense, is not fun gameplay."

Scourge was suppose to be a support spec first then condi but it ended up doing too much condi damage and Aoe.

No, from the beginning they said both. They even wrote it into video game.

  • PC: Shades?
  • Aleksi Xuni (Elite Specialization Mentor): An extension of our power, allowing us to affect the near and far, casting spells from both ourselves and our shades. They're versatile, able to protect allies and attack foes.

Just stay with your team. Necro doesn't do well 1v1.

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@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Double standard...I'm not bothering anymore. it's clear Anet doesn't play at high level and don't consider builds and dps when balacing. I mean ok scourge is oppressive on Aoe and condis fine, it needed a nerf but get a longbow druid or soulbeast or deadeye and you can basically perma kill him at range.But if any other class has the same oppressive dps + invuln, dodges, blocks and mobility it's fine XDI'm just going to reroll mesmer, if anet wants that then let's all play mesmer ^^

No one else can chain that many AoEs,

Errrr ele?

or use boon corruption.

Errrr warrior, mesmer, revenant?

In general that's okay because of class design, but siege/boons are part of game design. They would rather tweak 1 class than tweak 8.

Necromancer is still the meta bruiser. And Mesmer is still the meta 1v1/+1. Neither can do the others role even close to satisfactory so comparing them is a little silly. If there were a double standard it would be between Mesmer and Thief. Which with the nerf to Ellusive Mind has been somewhat addressed.

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The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

But you wont die from 3 burn, 3 bleed, 3 torment , 3 poison.

20 burn will do way more dmg in one tick than the 4 condis together

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

But you wont die from 3 burn, 3 bleed, 3 torment , 3 poison.

20 burn will do way more dmg in one tick than the 4 condis together

How are you getting 20 burns from an Ele to begin with? I've experimented on a lot of condi builds on Ele and there is no build out there that allows them to stack 20 burns reliably, especially if it's not a pure condi Ele/Weaver. You have to be super bad to get those.

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@MagicBoi.4160 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

But you wont die from 3 burn, 3 bleed, 3 torment , 3 poison.

20 burn will do way more dmg in one tick than the 4 condis together

How are you getting 20 burns from an Ele to begin with? I've experimented on a lot of condi builds on Ele and there is no build out there that allows them to stack 20 burns
reliably
, especially if it's not a pure condi Ele/Weaver. You have to be super bad to get those.

I dont know. Ask deceiver.Well tbh. I got a condi guard in my last pvp match. He put 17 stacks burning in almost an instant on me

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:The issue comes from breadth vs depth of conditions.

3 Torment + 3 Bleed + 3 Burn + 3 Poison + Weakness + 10 vuln + Chill + Blind is way worse to deal with than 20 Burning and a blind.

The latter can be fixed with a single cleanse or two spammable 1-condi cleanses. The former cannot, and is damning if soft CC is left up.

But you wont die from 3 burn, 3 bleed, 3 torment , 3 poison.

20 burn will do way more dmg in one tick than the 4 condis together

How are you getting 20 burns from an Ele to begin with? I've experimented on a lot of condi builds on Ele and there is no build out there that allows them to stack 20 burns
reliably
, especially if it's not a pure condi Ele/Weaver. You have to be super bad to get those.

I dont know. Ask deceiver.Well tbh. I got a condi guard in my last pvp match. He put 17 stacks burning in almost an instant on me

Its generally not hard to get to 12-15 ish on weaver if you know what you are doing and maybe even 17 if you are lucky but to say 20+ is a stretch. on your own.

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The point I was making is that even the application of a massive number of stacks of a single DoT condition is typically much less deadly in a PvP environment than a few stacks of all the types with other control conditions.

This is the sole reason why burn guard and Sword warrior are not played. Both can easily stack massive DoT very quickly, but the damage is generally awful due to the nature of cleanses.

Also, 3 poison/torment/bleed/burn can kill a number of builds. What matters there is duration. On 10s durations without runes on a TB build, this pushes well over 20k damage.

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